JW Can a JW explain this to me?

ISteveB

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Hi.
Many know that JW's are really die-hard about Jesus being a created being, and the NWT stating that the Logos of God is "a" god, and not THE God, YHVH.

This is further dealt with in Colossians 1:15.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So.... my question.... and yes, I have asked a local JW who came by to do their weekly door to door. They never could answer it, and when I offered to let them go ask their leaders, they simply never returned. I thought that was a little rude. I've asked others since, and no one can answer me still..... so please... answer this.

Since when did firstborn become first-created?
prototokos has never been used to define a created being.
It's firstborn.

TYIA.
 
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Cormack

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Adding verses 16 and 17 immediately after verse 15 are very difficult sections of scripture for witnesses to interpret, in my experience with local members. Including Colossians 2:9 tying the entire thing together “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” Image of the invisible God, creating everything visible and invisible (namely everything) and the fullness of God dwelling in Him.
 
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ISteveB

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Adding verses 16 and 17 immediately after verse 15 are very difficult sections of scripture for witnesses to interpret, in my experience with local members. Including Colossians 2:9 tying the entire thing together “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” Image of the invisible God, creating everything visible and invisible (namely everything) and the fullness of God dwelling in Him.
Hi C.

You know that.

I know that. I have quite a collection of verses which demonstrate that Jesus is YHVH the Son.

But I saw this section of the forum and noticed that there were a lot of LDS and a few jw. So I thought I'd ask to see if any jw's were around to answer.

This was actually a question I'd asked in 2009, and to another in 2010.

Still waiting for a JW to answer.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Thank you.
Are you aware if there are any actual JW's on this site?

At this time, I do not know. At times one does pop in. You can tell it is them because they do not give links to their sources. When I google a Sentence that sound like the Watchtower, they are quoting from a JW source.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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They mean he was created being before Adam and Eve. Their proof texts are:

Proverbs 8:22
King James Version
22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, NWT 2013

NWT footnote: “Produced me.” Heb., qa·naʹni; TLXX(Gr., eʹkti·senʹ me)Sy, “created me”; Lat., pos·seʹdit me, “possessed me.” See Ge 14:19 ftn.

New International Version
"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

New Living Translation
“The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else.

English Standard Version
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

Berean Study Bible
The LORD created me as His first course, before His works of old.

New American Standard Bible
"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

New King James Version
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

King James Bible
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Christian Standard Bible
"The LORD acquired me at the beginning of his creation, before his works of long ago.


Contemporary English Version
From the beginning, I was with the LORD. I was there before he began


Good News Translation
"The LORD created me first of all, the first of his works, long ago.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation, before His works of long ago.

International Standard Version
"The LORD made me as he began his planning, before his ancient activity commenced.

NET Bible
The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.

New Heart English Bible
"The LORD created me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

A Faithful Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Lord Jehovah created me at the beginning of his creation and from before all of his works.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"The LORD already possessed me long ago, when his way began, before any of his works.

JPS Tanakh 1917
The LORD made me as the beginning of His way, The first of His works of old.

New American Standard 1977
“The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

King James 2000 Bible
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

American King James Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

American Standard Version
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning.

Darby Bible Translation
Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

English Revised Version
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Webster's Bible Translation
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

World English Bible
"Yahweh possessed me in the beginning of his work, before his deeds of old.

Young's Literal Translation
Jehovah possessed me -- the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.

The context of Proverbs 8 is about the role of Wisdom in creation.
Wisdom is one of God's attributes, so it makes no sense to say it was created or made.

PS NWT mean their New World Translation of the Bible.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Rev 3:14 of their New World Translation reads, as does the KJV:

14 “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa+ write: These are the things that the Amen+ says, the faithful and true+ witness,+ the beginning of the creation by God

New International Version
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

English Standard Version
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

Berean Study Bible
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation.

King James Bible
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Christian Standard Bible
"Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: Thus says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God's creation:

Contemporary English Version
This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.

Good News Translation
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "This is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the origin of all that God has created.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says:

International Standard Version
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:

NET Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: "This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God's creation:

New Heart English Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

A Faithful Version
And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans, write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginner of the creation of God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source of The Creation of God:”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:

World English Bible
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

Young's Literal Translation
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

The text in context simply means Jesus is the creator, originator and ruler of all creation.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
 
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Daniel Marsh

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To get around Col 1 the NWT: They add the word "other" in "all things" to make him a created being. I forget how they get around "image of the invisible God" and "fullness to dwell in him". Maybe, someone else remembers and will share.

15 He is the image of the invisible God,+ the firstborn of all creation;+ 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,+ whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him+ and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things,+ and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation.+ He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,+ so that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him,+ 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things+ by making peace through the blood+ he shed on the torture stake,* whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.

I am sure there are other texts they mis-interpret and mis-translate too.
 
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Thread cleaned up to get it back on track. This forum is to for challenging the beliefs of a non-christian group, not for debating between Christians.

ADMIN HAT OFF
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Thread cleaned up to get it back on track. This forum is to for challenging the beliefs of a non-christian group, not for debating between Christians.

ADMIN HAT OFF
Thank You,
Daniel
 
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Ratiocination

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Hi.
Many know that JW's are really die-hard about Jesus being a created being, and the NWT stating that the Logos of God is "a" god, and not THE God, YHVH.

This is further dealt with in Colossians 1:15.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So.... my question.... and yes, I have asked a local JW who came by to do their weekly door to door. They never could answer it, and when I offered to let them go ask their leaders, they simply never returned. I thought that was a little rude. I've asked others since, and no one can answer me still..... so please... answer this.

Since when did firstborn become first-created?
prototokos has never been used to define a created being.
It's firstborn.

TYIA.
Lol, since when did firstborn not imply first-created? My firstborn son was the first of my offspring that was created by my wife and I.
And, Firstborn of what? Col. 1:15 says OF (not OVER, that's a translation unique to the NIV and maybe a few others) "all CREATION. Jesus here in Col. 1:15 is a part of the group that follows. It's a Partitive Genitive. Jesus is a part of the group called creation.

Hope this helps Sir
 
setst777
setst777
God created living things within the 6 days of creation to produce after their own kind. God didn't give birth to creation.
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pescador

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Lol, since when did firstborn not imply first-created? My firstborn son was the first of my offspring that was created by my wife and I.
And, Firstborn of what? Col. 1:15 says OF (not OVER, that's a translation unique to the NIV and maybe a few others) "all CREATION. Jesus here in Col. 1:15 is a part of the group that follows. It's a Partitive Genitive. Jesus is a part of the group called creation.

Hope this helps Sir

It doesn't help because it's wrong. In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 -- "for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him." -- and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator). NET translators note.
 
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Ratiocination

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It doesn't help because it's wrong. In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 -- "for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him." -- and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator). NET translators note.
So close, but yet so far!
If all things were created "through" him, then who was the source? Who was the source acting through Jesus?
It seems reasonable to assert that force was none other than the Father as shown in 1Cor. 8:6.
 
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Freedm

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It doesn't help because it's wrong. In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 -- "for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him." -- and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator). NET translators note.
Indeed, John tells us that all things were created through him, but perhaps we need to take a step back and think about what he means by "him". John was speaking of "the word", and the word is the truth. Jesus told us he also is the truth, but could this simply mean that the truth of the word of God was joined with Jesus, making the two one? And is that not ultimately our destiny as well, to become one with God?

John himself reveals this truth to us in a later chapter.

John 17:20-23
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

This being the case, it does not require that Jesus was not a human being, born of flesh and blood (though of the seed of God himself), nor that Jesus the man existed in all eternity prior to the establishment of the earth, but only the truth, which is the word of God.

In fact, 2 Samuel reveals to us that Jesus did not always exist, by using the future tense in its description of not only him, but more importantly his relationship to God the father.

2 Samuel 7:12-14
When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son.

So I believe when John says, "all things were created through him" I believe he means, "all things were created through the word of God", and in this way we can reconcile both John 1 and Colossians 1:15 as in both cases the word of God is the firstborn of all creation, since it is exactly through this word that all creation exists. Jesus the man, being born of the seed of God, was one with God himself but did not exist before his birth, though his word did.
 
setst777
setst777
John 1:9 (WEB) 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn’t recognize him.
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Ratiocination

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Indeed, John tells us that all things were created through him, but perhaps we need to take a step back and think about what he means by "him". John was speaking of "the word", and the word is the truth. Jesus told us he also is the truth, but could this simply mean that the truth of the word of God was joined with Jesus, making the two one? And is that not ultimately our destiny as well, to become one with God?

John himself reveals this truth to us in a later chapter.

John 17:20-23
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

This being the case, it does not require that Jesus was not a human being, born of flesh and blood (though of the seed of God himself), nor that Jesus the man existed in all eternity prior to the establishment of the earth, but only the truth, which is the word of God.

In fact, 2 Samuel reveals to us that Jesus did not always exist, by using the future tense in its description of not only him, but more importantly his relationship to God the father.

2 Samuel 7:12-14
When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son.

So I believe when John says, "all things were created through him" I believe he means, "all things were created through the word of God", and in this way we can reconcile both John 1 and Colossians 1:15 as in both cases the word of God is the firstborn of all creation, since it is exactly through this word that all creation exists. Jesus the man, being born of the seed of God, was one with God himself but did not exist before his birth, though his word did.
Yet still, the source of that creative power is not explained, at least by you!
The scriptures, when left alone to speak, say the source is the father, regardless of the role the son/word was fulfilling at the point of reference to a particular verse. The bible at no point calls Jesus/the Word the creator, only an "agent/channel" of creation.
 
setst777
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"John 1:3" tells us that not even one thing was made without him (The Word). All things are from God and by His Word (1 Corinthians 8:6). That is the nature of God's being - God can do nothing without His Word.
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