At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,116
618
65
Michigan
✟318,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes the salmon was caught in a River in California, it weighed in at 51 lbs :)

Those He predestined, His elect.

Wow, I fished with my cousin 40 years ago near Willimina Oregon. He caught one over 50 lbs. as well. They don't make them like that here in Michigan.

Since God tells us He gives men a choice as I posted, and given HE sees the end from the beginning, wouldn't that mean HE has already seen and chosen those who would choose HIM over the religions of the land they are born into, like Abraham was told to do? Or as Jesus said "Deny themselves" and followed Him?

Are these not the "predestined", His very elect?
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I`m not going to trace it down just to prove a point. If you want to do it, it`s a Sociology topic. You need a resource on weddings in ancient Israel. It was customary for the host to pay for the wedding garments.
To be specific it would have part of the bride-price. Do your friends expect their groomsmen to rent their own tux and the bridesmaids to pay for their own dresses? This custom was more important in ancient times than it is today. Debating it is weak sauce.

I will do some googling :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
59
richmond
✟64,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
For me your question came out of nowhere because I never implied, suggested or otherwise said Salvation could be had without God and His instruction. The post you replied to mentioned the free will submission to God's instruction as Jesus Himself God wants.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


How is that trying to be saved without God's help?

Well, I don`t know what free will submission to God's instruction is or how I am supposed to glean the term from the above scripture.

If a person requires God`s help to get saved then they are not able to make a freewill choice on their own to be saved.

I find that people who get agitated at the suggestion they don`t have free will usually want to have it both ways. A glaring inconsistency in the whole freewill idea.
 
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
59
richmond
✟64,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
In what way was it available?

Anyone who learns that Jesus came, makes a decision, believe or not. Contact of just about any kind with the gospel is the opportunity.

It`s like a free gift available to the public but you have to go to the place where it is being distributed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Anyone who learns that Jesus came, makes a decision, believe or not. Contact of just about any kind with the gospel is the opportunity.

It`s like a free gift available to the public but you have to go to the place where it is being distributed.

Yes of course! I asked "Jesus is YHWH" the question since he holds to LA. I don't understand how it can be available for a person when Jesus didn't bear his/her sins.
 
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
59
richmond
✟64,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Yes of course! I asked "Jesus is YHWH" the question since he holds to LA. I don't understand how it can be available for a person when Jesus didn't bear his/her sins.

I`ll leave that one alone. I`m not a Calvinist.
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,116
618
65
Michigan
✟318,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Well, I don`t know what free will submission to God's instruction is or how I am supposed to glean the term from the above scripture.

If a person requires God`s help to get saved then they are not able to make a freewill choice on their own to be saved.

I find that people who get agitated at the suggestion they don`t have free will usually want to have it both ways. A glaring inconsistency in the whole freewill idea.

Deflection is a common tactic to avoid discussion. If I fall into a pit, and Jesus drops a rope down to me, I have two choices of free will. I can choose to trust HIM and grab the rope, or choose not to trust Him and not grab the rope. To imply as you do, that trusting Him enough to grab the rope is evidence that I don't have free will is an imagination of your own mind. You are free to have such an imagination, but the scriptures do not support such a doctrine.

Mark 8:
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

This is the Gospel of the Christ from the beginning.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him.

If am not agitated that you imply in your preaching that I can not trust These and other Word's of the Christ as truth. I just wanted to have an honest examination of Scripture.

It's ok if you don't want to engage.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I`ll leave that one alone. I`m not a Calvinist.

I was thinking a lot of reformed theology for a few years, and was actually quite depressed about it. I was pretty much comparing Lutheranism and Calvinism. But then I got a new perspective of things, much because of an Anabaptist teacher and a Greek speaking professor.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
59
richmond
✟64,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Deflection is a common tactic to avoid discussion. If I fall into a pit, and Jesus drops a rope down to me, I have two choices of free will. I can choose to trust HIM and grab the rope, or choose not to trust Him and not grab the rope. To imply as you do, that trusting Him enough to grab the rope is evidence that I don't have free will is an imagination of your own mind. You are free to have such an imagination, but the scriptures do not support such a doctrine.

Mark 8:
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

This is the Gospel of the Christ from the beginning.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him.

If am not agitated that you imply in your preaching that I can not trust These and other Word's of the Christ as truth. I just wanted to have an honest examination of Scripture.

It's ok if you don't want to engage.

Why should I engage you if you are going to display such dramatics? Your false accusation that I said you can`t trust the words of Christ earns you no respect from me.

The people in your verses had already received the help they needed to enable them to make a decision. Cobbling these verses together proves nothing.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
 
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
59
richmond
✟64,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I was thinking a lot of reformed theology for a few years, and was actually quite depressed about it. I was pretty much comparing Lutheranism and Calvinism. But then I got a new perspective of things, much because of an Anabaptist teacher and a Greek speaking professor.

I was never into studying it formally but as a Pauline Christian, I struggled with the issues of salvation by election. Probably similar to your struggle. My solution is a form of Compatibilism though I didn`t know it had a name until recently.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I was never into studying it formally but as a Pauline Christian, I struggled with the issues of salvation by election. Probably similar to your struggle. My solution is a form of Compatibilism though I didn`t know it had a name until recently.

Yeah, I too had struggles with questions around election. The atonement part was and still is the most important issue for me because it shows the character of God.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
59
richmond
✟64,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Yeah, I too had struggles with the election part.

I laid it to rest a long time ago now but I spent about 20 years working on reconciling that part of the Bible. Once you get saved the important part is taken care of so no need to be in a rush to understand the rest of it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I laid it to rest a long time ago now but I spent about 20 years working on reconciling that part of the Bible. Once you get saved the important part is taken care of so no need to be in a rush to understand the rest of it.

I've heard Martin Luther have said something like: "When you come to something in the Bible you just don't understand. Take your hat off and come back another time". Don't know if he really said it though. :cool:
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,119
7,243
Dallas
✟873,902.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
"and everything is ready." That`s all I can tell you.

Chambers's Twentieth Century Dictionary
  • Wedding-garment garment worn at a wedding

I concede, you are right that God does provide the garment. The garment is the gospel and the Holy Spirit. These are what urge us to repent and obey Him. I overlooked this aspect of the parable. We cannot be properly dressed without God’s grace, I don’t deny that. However, the expectation in this case of the King to the man who was improperly dressed indicates that the man should’ve been capable of meeting the King’s expectations. I believe the man was improperly dressed because he was grieving the Holy Spirit, not because he was incapable of meeting the King’s expectation. The invitation is God’s calling and with it God grants a person the ability to believe the gospel and repent otherwise it’s not a valid invitation at all. This man being invited was not prepared by his own doing. He had the garments he just didn’t put them on.
 
Upvote 0

RickReads

Well-Known Member
Sep 27, 2020
3,433
1,068
59
richmond
✟64,831.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I concede, you are right that God does provide the garment. The garment is the gospel and the Holy Spirit. These are what urge us to repent and obey Him. I overlooked this aspect of the parable. We cannot be properly dressed without God’s grace, I don’t deny that. However, the expectation in this case of the King to the man who was improperly dressed indicates that the man should’ve been capable of meeting the King’s expectations. I believe the man was improperly dressed because he was grieving the Holy Spirit, not because he was incapable of meeting the King’s expectation. The invitation is God’s calling and with it God grants a person the ability to believe the gospel and repent otherwise it’s not a valid invitation at all. This man being invited was not prepared by his own doing. He had the garments he just didn’t put them on.

I`m quitting this site so this is the last you will hear from me. I answer you now because I truly care about you as I do all the brethren.

The garment is the righteousness of Jesus which covers all those who believe. You can not gain it by works. It`s the blood on the door that causes the death angel to pass us by. That blood only comes from the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The righteous are scarcely saved and are only saved by the blood of Jesus which you apply to your door by surrendering to Him.

For this reason, I oppose those who promote works for salvation in all its forms.
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,163
2,606
✟877,129.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I`m quitting this site so this is the last you will hear from me. I answer you now because I truly care about you as I do all the brethren.

The garment is the righteousness of Jesus which covers all those who believe. You can not gain it by works. It`s the blood on the door that causes the death angel to pass us by. That blood only comes from the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The righteous are scarcely saved and are only saved by the blood of Jesus which you apply to your door by surrendering to Him.

For this reason, I oppose those who promote works for salvation in all its forms.

Sorry to see you go man, enjoyed your posts.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I`m quitting this site so this is the last you will hear from me.

There was another Christian forum I used to post at which was a rougher place to be in my opinion. At the time I posted at this other forum (a long time ago), they called me bad names and they were not penalized for it. So this forum is a walk in the park by comparison. But I know how you feel. There are times I wanted to walk away from these forums, too. But I find that discussing the truth with God's Word keeps me engaged more in the Word, and it helps me to connect with other believers at times. I know certain posters may not have made your time here easy. If that is the reason, just know that anything good in life involves some kind of hardship.

You said:
The garment is the righteousness of Jesus which covers all those who believe. You can not gain it by works. It`s the blood on the door that causes the death angel to pass us by. That blood only comes from the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:7 says, “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

So we have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from sin.
What is walking in the light mean?
It's defined for us by the use of indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11.
Walking in the light is loving your brother.
In other words, we have to love our brother in order for the shed blood of Jesus to continue to cleanse us from all sin. Also, I believe the wedding garment that the Gentile believer did not have on in the Parable of the Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22:12 is the fine linen that the saints wore in Revelation 19:8. This fine linen is described as the righteousness of the saints. I believe this to be Christ working through the believer to obey God. For Revelation 22 says,

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:14-15).

For we Gentile believers are told that if we do not continue in his goodness, we can be cut off like the Jews were cut off (See: Romans 11:21-22).

“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.” (1 John 3:3).

“And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” (1 John 3:5).

“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” (Romans 13:14).

Notice here in this above verse. It says put ye (you-all) on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the lusts thereof. Meaning, putting on Jesus Christ means that we can overcome mortal sin in this life. For Jesus was manifested to take away our sins (1 John 3:5). For everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself. But those believers who think they can sin and still be saved think they will always sin in this life. So for these kind of believers: Purifying oneself is pointless because one will always sin and be dirty. But that is not what the Bible teaches. For he that has this hope (i.e. JESUS) in him purifies himself as Christ is pure.

You said:
The righteous are scarcely saved and are only saved by the blood of Jesus which you apply to your door by surrendering to Him.

Lets read the actual passage.

18 “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

Notice the context?
Verse 19 talks about the keeping of one's soul in well doing as a part of the righteous being scarcely saved. The question implies that the ungodly and the sinner will not appear. Meaning, those who continue to live ungodly and or continue to be a sinner will not appear in God's kingdom.

You said:
For this reason, I oppose those who promote works for salvation in all its forms.

Then I am sorry to say that by this statement, you then oppose the Bible, my friend (Whether you realize that fact or not).

For after we are saved by God's grace, we need to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of God's plan of salvation (According to the Bible). For...

  1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

  2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

  3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

  4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

  5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).

  6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).

  7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).

  8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).

  9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).

  10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).

  11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).

  12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

Now, if you what you say is true, you should be able to explain these verses with the context. But in all my time in posting verses like these, nobody who believes as you do was able to properly explain them using the Bible. Some have suggested the original languages say something different. Others just ignore these verses. But nobody has supported what these verses say plainly in the English.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0