LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

Dale said:

I could raise several questions on how the verses you cite relate to the question of God being Spirit, the All-Powerful spirit who created everything.

Christians believe that all souls, all spirits, are created by God. God is the only uncreated being.

On the other hand, the Book of Abraham says:


18 Howbeit that he made the greater
star; as, also, if there be two spirits,
and one shall be more intelligent than
the other, yet these two spirits, not
withstanding one is more intelligent
than the other, have no beginning;
they existed before, they shall have
no end, they shall exist after, for they
are bgnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me:
These two facts do exist, that there
are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be
another more intelligent than they;
I am the Lord thy God, I am more
intelligent than they all.
BA 3:18-19

... I came down in the beginning
in the midst of all the intelligences
thou hast seen
22 Now the Lord had shown unto
me, Abraham, the intelligences
that were organized before the
world was; and among all these
there were many of the noble and
great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that
they were good, and he stood in the
midst of them, and he said: These
I will make my rulers; for he stood
among those that were spirits, and
he saw that they were good; and he
said unto me: Abraham, thou art one
of them; thou wast chosen before
thou wast born
24 And there stood one among
them that was like unto God, and he
said unto those who were with him:
We will go down, for there is space
there, and we will take of these materials, and bwe will make an earth
whereon these may dwell;
BA 3: 20-24


In the Book of Abraham, spirits pre-exist from eternity. God sees them, and chooses them. He organizes a planet for them to live on in mortal bodies, but the Mormon God doesn't create spirits, or souls. The spirits that become people are already there, they are eternal and uncreated. Multitudes of spirits exist before God decides to make a planet for them.

This isn't what we find in Genesis. In Genesis, Adam becomes a living soul when God creates him. God doesn't grab a soul and put it into Adam's body. There are no pre-existent spirits in Genesis.

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He is the way said:

You said: "In the Book of Abraham, spirits pre-exist from eternity. God sees them, and chooses them. He organizes a planet for them to live on in mortal bodies, but the Mormon God doesn't create spirits, or souls. The spirits that become people are already there, they are eternal and uncreated. Multitudes of spirits exist before God decides to make a planet for them."

You misunderstand the scripture. First we were intelligences, then we were organized into spirits, then into living souls (body and spirit). All of us existed before the earth:

(Old Testament | Genesis 2:1)

1 THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Most of us have forgotten our pre-existence. One man didn't:

https://www.amazon.com/Souls-Remembrance-Roy-Mills-ebook/dp/B008ROO4LW/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=the+soul's+remembrance&qid=1606608526&s=books&sr=1-3

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mmksparbud said:

There is no such thing as preexisting intelligences. We were created as were all the angels. God alone is immortal.

1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Anyone claiming to have knowledge of this blasphemous doctrine contradicts the bible and is therefore, not of God.

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He is the way said:

(New Testament | John 11:26)

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:53 - 54)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

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mmksparbud said:

We are given immortality---it is a gift from God to the believers. It is not given to the lost. It is not acquired by right of birth. It is given by God.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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He is the way said:

So you admit that immortality does not belong to God alone. Now we are getting somewhere.

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mmksparbud said:

I have always maintained that God alone gives immortality to the saved! It is declared all over the bible. It is not ours by right of birth. He gives it to the saved alone---not to the lost! To have preexisted implies immortality---we only get it at the resurrection!!

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He is the way said:

As Jesus declared, life eternal will be given to those who keep the commandments:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

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mmksparbud said:

And not until He returns. No one had eternal life before being born. No one has eternal life until the resurrection---we can claim the promise now, but we do not actually get it until He returns. No such thing as pre-existing beings.

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mmksparbud said:

You know why---it's called free will. God made provision if they chose disobedience over obedience. Lucifer did not need a Satan, he became Satan. Adam and Eve made themselves the coverings from fig leaves. That represents our works---which are not of any value, God made them the needed garments---from skins, representing the works of God not man. An animal died that day to cover them. The animal representing the blood of Christ.
You temple ceremony is of no value whatsoever. The bible gives a clear account without the li9es of Satan.

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mmksparbud said:

And not until He returns. No one had eternal life before being born. No one has eternal life until the resurrection---we can claim the promise now, but we do not actually get it until He returns. No such thing as pre-existing beings.

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Peter1000 said:

What do you mean: The bible gives a clear account without the lies of satan?
Genesis 3:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The innocent aprons that we put on in our ceremony is to represent the aprons you see here in the bible, not a representation of the apron that satan wore to declare his priesthoods.

Our ceremony also teaches us a lot more than what happened in the garden.

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Peter1000 said:

Yes there was. It was not until 533ad that the doctors decided to not teach pre-existence of our souls. Before that time there was a large number of Christians that believed in the pre-existence of souls. So some doctors got together and squashed it in the 6th century and it took hundreds of years to die down, but finally did. But it was not always that way.

If in this second council of Constantinople, there had been more bishops that represented those that believed in the pre-existence of souls, then the outcome would have been different, and you may well believe like we do. So it was not revelation that removed the truth, it was simple math. The bishops that did not believe outnumbered those that did. Not a very good way to prove doctrinal beliefs.

Jesus Christ has just simply restored the truth that was put aside by the doctors of religion in 533ad.

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Dale said:

I could raise several questions on how the verses you cite relate to the question of God being Spirit, the All-Powerful spirit who created everything.

Christians believe that all souls, all spirits, are created by God. God is the only uncreated being.

On the other hand, the Book of Abraham says:


18 Howbeit that he made the greater
star; as, also, if there be two spirits,
and one shall be more intelligent than
the other, yet these two spirits, not
withstanding one is more intelligent
than the other, have no beginning;
they existed before, they shall have
no end, they shall exist after, for they
are bgnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me:
These two facts do exist, that there
are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be
another more intelligent than they;
I am the Lord thy God, I am more
intelligent than they all.
BA 3:18-19

... I came down in the beginning
in the midst of all the intelligences
thou hast seen
22 Now the Lord had shown unto
me, Abraham, the intelligences
that were organized before the
world was; and among all these
there were many of the noble and
great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that
they were good, and he stood in the
midst of them, and he said: These
I will make my rulers; for he stood
among those that were spirits, and
he saw that they were good; and he
said unto me: Abraham, thou art one
of them; thou wast chosen before
thou wast born
24 And there stood one among
them that was like unto God, and he
said unto those who were with him:
We will go down, for there is space
there, and we will take of these materials, and bwe will make an earth
whereon these may dwell;
BA 3: 20-24


In the Book of Abraham, spirits pre-exist from eternity. God sees them, and chooses them. He organizes a planet for them to live on in mortal bodies, but the Mormon God doesn't create spirits, or souls. The spirits that become people are already there, they are eternal and uncreated. Multitudes of spirits exist before God decides to make a planet for them.

This isn't what we find in Genesis. In Genesis, Adam becomes a living soul when God creates him. God doesn't grab a soul and put it into Adam's body. There are no pre-existent spirits in Genesis.

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Peter1000 said:

Adam did not become a living soul when God creates him. Read Genesis:
Genesis 2:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

First God created Adam, and then what did he do? God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and it was then that Adam became a living soul.

Another word for "the breath of life" = "spirit".

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mmksparbud said:

Baloney like this:
As to the Fall itself we are told that the Lord planted "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" in the midst of the garden. (Moses 3:9.) To Adam and Eve the command came: "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Moses 3:16-17.) Again the account is speaking figuratively. What is meant by partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that our first parents complied with whatever laws were involved so that their bodies would change from their state of paradisiacal immortality to a state of natural mortality. ("Christ and the Creation," Ensign, June 1982, p. 15; emphasis added)

Eve partook without full understanding; Adam partook knowing that unless he did so he and Eve could not have children and fulfill the commandment they had received to multiply and replenish the earth. After they had thus complied with whatever the law was that brought mortality into being, the Lord said to Eve: "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." To Adam the decree came: "Cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee." Thus the paradisiacal earth was cursed; thus it fell; and thus it became as it now is.
Bruce R. McConkie (1915-85) Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Boyd K. Packer Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

The Fall came by transgression of a law, but there was no sin connected with it. There is a difference between transgression and sin. Both always bring consequences. While it may not be a sin to step off a roof, in doing so one becomes subject to the law of gravity, and consequences will follow. ("The Great Plan of Happiness and Personal Revelation," Things of the Soul [1996], pp. 45-60)


Russell M. Nelson Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

To bring the plan of happiness to fruition, God issued to Adam and Eve the first commandment ever given to mankind. It was a commandment to beget children. A law was explained to them. Should they eat from "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17), their bodies would change; mortality and eventual death would come upon them. But partaking of that fruit was prerequisite to their parenthood.

While I do not fully understand all the biochemistry involved, I do know that their physical bodies did change; blood began to circulate in their bodies. Adam and Eve thereby became mortal. Happily for us, they could also beget children and fulfill the purposes for which the world was created. Happily for them, "the Lord said unto Adam [and Eve26]: Behold I have forgiven thee thy transgression in the Garden of Eden" (Moses 6:53). We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve's great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done. Adam was wise enough to do likewise. Accordingly, we could speak of the fall of Adam in terms of a mortal creation, because "Adam fell that men might be" (2 Nephi 2:25).27

Other blessings came to us through the Fall. It activated two closely coupled additional gifts from God, nearly as precious as life itself--agency and accountability. We became "free to choose liberty and eternal life . . . or to choose captivity and death" (2 Nephi 2:27). Freedom of choice cannot be exercised without accountability for choices made. (Ensign, Nov. 1993, p. 34)

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mmksparbud said:

That is what I've said---Adam was basically a sculpture, made from the dust of the earth. When God breathed into his nostrils, Adam became a living soul. It does not say, God put a soul into him---he came one with the breath of life from.

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