Grace and Works broken down

Jesus is YHWH

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Alright, there are a lot of good books so I will try and work on this. I did just a second ago put in an order for four books for my Dad for Christmas and I’m sure he will probably let me read them as well. I did order The Gospel According To Jesus that you recommended to me. I also just ordered The Imitation Of Christ that I recommended to you. In addition to those I also ordered these two books:

Faith Alone: A Daily Devotional


Christification: A Lutheran Approach to Theosis

Those are the four books that I just now ordered for Christmas for my Dad and I will probably read them soon as well.

The one on Christification by Cooper looks extremely interesting and definitely relates to this discussion.

I will post more books that I like as soon as I can. But the one that I recommended by John Piper is probably the book that has most impacted my life.
I started a new thread and tagged you !
 
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RickReads

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That was 20 years ago. My beliefs have changed over time. At the time I really didn’t believe in the pretribulation rapture so no Calvary wasn’t really a good fit for me. I did like the worship and the people were friendly and learning from Pastor Chuck Smith was enlightening. Doctrine is the reason I am no longer at Calvary Chapel. It is a very good church don’t get me wrong. Overtime I began studying the Methodist movement and John Wesley’s life and really began to see the importance of good works as a Christian. But there are many other doctrinal reasons that I am no longer at Calvary works isn’t the only issue that I have with their theology.

So bad doctrine produced a very good church. That sounds very strange to me.
 
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Devin Hammond

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So bad doctrine produced a very good church. That sounds very strange to me.

They are a solid evangelical church and I consider them Christians. I just have some differences with them. I actually learned a lot at Calvary Chapel and I am thankful for them. Their worship I really do enjoy.
 
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Devin Hammond

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RickReads

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Yes Chuck, Charles and John Mac all teach Lordship Salvation as do I :)

I really like those So Cal guys. I'm from Nor Cal :)

Is this what happens when Calvins see the light? Becomes red-letter Christians :doh: Maybe I should quit pickin on em.
 
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Toro

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Paul was not perfect.

HOWEVER the one that is our first love could use him PERFECTLY to get the message out of the full image of God.

It is true, that we humans are VERY prone to failure.... however... the one who works through us... is NOT.

What is more likely that:

The Father in His infinite wisdom can use me, KNOWING the mistakes I make in my humanity and ignorance, to His will PERFECTLY... not because I am perfect, but because HE is.

Or

That God, in His infinite wisdom can ONLY have His perfect will done, IF I, foolish, feeble, weak Toro.... choose every word, perfectly. IF I can live up to a level of perfection that has been proven, generation after generation to be impossible.

Is God so weak as to not be able to plan for my major blunders?

Is my foolishness more powerful than His wisdom? Is my incapablity greater than the level to which He is capable?

IF I say dog, but He wants cat...... can He not change one to another by simply speaking it as such.

The very mountains move to His will. The wind and waves obey.... but we humans believe that our mistakes are greater than He.

We can not prevent our imperfections, but our Father is so great that even though we wish offer perfection and fail.... He accepts our failures and uses even those, perfectly.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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So you do agree that Peter was certainly not looking forward to the Cross right?

And when the cross was finally going to happen, he was so disillusioned that he renounced knowing Christ 3 times.

Does that strike you as someone looking forward to the cross?

Peter is a great lesson in knowing the will of God and serving God by the effort of the flesh or the power of the Spirit. I actually love Peter for the great lessons I have learned about faith.

Know this: it was God's will that Peter would die for the sake of Jesus Christ. This is revealed after Christ's resurrection when he told it to him. Peter was going to die for the name of the Lord as many others had done before him [see Hebrews 11].

Peter is given to us as an example that we cannot serve God by the will of the flesh, only by the Holy Ghost.

I may say to God, "I will..."

But it is far better to hear God say, "You will..."

I think a lot of our faith, whether believing for healing, provision, deliverance, or many other needs fails because it is merely human effort and not God inspired. Human effort cannot win the battle.

Yet Peter's apparent failure was all in the permissible will of God as Luke reveals in Jesus' discourse with him, "Satan has desired to have you but I have prayed for you that your strength fail not."

Peter felt an utter failure but Jesus assured him he had not. What a wonderful restoration it was! Allow yourself to float in the beauty of its emotion.

In essence Jesus said to him, "You will not fail me Peter, your will die with me, and rise again; but first things first."

Jas 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Wait on the Lord and He will renew your strength. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. So many encouragements to let God's will be done. Amen.

This is the gospel of reconciliation. We cannot do it, but he can and will.
 
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Guojing

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Paul is all I’ve heard about in this thread, I’ve heard very little about Jesus Christ. It’s like I’m surrounded by Paul worshippers.

Numbers 12
And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)
 
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Guojing

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Why are we making this thread about Paul?

This thread is about Grace and Works right?

Ephesians 3
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
 
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Devin Hammond

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This thread is about Grace and Works right?

Ephesians 3
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Yes, it’s about grace and works, not Paul.
 
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RickReads

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Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So we can break down this passage into 10 points that show how faith, grace and works can be in harmony with one another in the Salvation process.

1- by grace we are saved
2- it is through faith
3- not from ourselves
4- its a gift from God
5- not by works
6- no one can boast- about their works regarding salvation
7- those saved are Gods workmanship
8- created in Christ
9- to do good works- post salvation
10- God prepared those works in advance for us- to do those works as a result of being saved.

PS- I sometimes find that breaking down a passage point by point helps me to see the bigger picture better than if I'm just reading it as one complete sentence.

hope this helps !!!


In contrast, we find the reward of works for salvation

Romans 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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In contrast, we find the reward of works for salvation

Romans 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
Works according to Paul have no justification, faith does !

Romans 4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.
 
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Devin Hammond

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Works according to Paul have no justification, faith does !

Romans 4
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Romans 2:4-10
 
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Devin Hammond

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We aren`t, but I will remind you that you already claimed Paul's epistles aren`t inspired and that he led the church astray. You substitute the word "inherent" to circumvent the rules. I get your agenda.

I did edit some of my older posts a bit for clarification. I hope this helps.
 
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Dan1988

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Yes, so my simple point was that, none of the ot saints were looking forward to the cross.

As I said, they were instead looking forward to the promised kingdom, at least ever since God promised King David, that is known as the gospel of the kingdom.
Just as the OT were saved by faith, so are all those under the new covenant. Abraham was saved by faith, his obedience to God was counted as righteousness. So his faith was in God's atoning work and not his own obedience.
Jesus is Jehovah God, the creator of all things. If we accept the Bible doctrine that salvation is all of the Lord, then we can say Jesus is the One who saves every saved person in every age.

The Jews lost their unique status as God's chosen people, under the new covenant where there is no more Jew or Gentile just sinners in desperate need of salvation. Hell has many Jews in it, some were cast into it before Christ came and others cast into it after He came into the world.

The Jews were looking forward to an earthly kingdom where their king would rule over their enemies by military means. Jesus didn't come as a man of war the first time but He is coming back as a Man of war the second time when He will kill all the enemies of God and then He will establish His everlasting Kingdom.
 
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Guojing

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Just as the OT were saved by faith, so are all those under the new covenant. Abraham was saved by faith, his obedience to God was counted as righteousness. So his faith was in God's atoning work and not his own obedience.
Jesus is Jehovah God, the creator of all things. If we accept the Bible doctrine that salvation is all of the Lord, then we can say Jesus is the One who saves every saved person in every age.

The Jews lost their unique status as God's chosen people, under the new covenant where there is no more Jew or Gentile just sinners in desperate need of salvation. Hell has many Jews in it, some were cast into it before Christ came and others cast into it after He came into the world.

The Jews were looking forward to an earthly kingdom where their king would rule over their enemies by military means. Jesus didn't come as a man of war the first time but He is coming back as a Man of war the second time when He will kill all the enemies of God and then He will establish His everlasting Kingdom.

The new covenant will only start with Israel at the 2nd coming of Christ.

So all of them in Israel have to wait until then to receive their salvation (acts 3:19-21)
 
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Dan1988

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The new covenant will only start with Israel at the 2nd coming of Christ.

So all of them in Israel have to wait until then to receive their salvation (acts 3:19-21)
But He did come a second time already, they killed Him the first time and the new covenant started with His resurrection. Christianity is dead in the water without the resurrection.
There are no more Jews and Gentiles or circumcision, the bride of Christ is made up of people from every nation, tribe and tongue.
 
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Devin Hammond

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If one removes Paul from the book of Acts along with his epistles, the gospel that is left calls for obedience to the leaders of Judaism and adherence to the law of Moses. Gentiles to become proselytes
as the Galatians did in order to join the church. Hebrew Roots belief system becomes the right thing.

Didn’t Paul call for obedience to the commandments? 1 Corinthians 7:19 & Romans 3:31
 
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