Day of The Lord - Day of Jesus' Future Return

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Jesus didn't go preach The Gospel to demons in the pit prison. He preached to the dead who had died before His crucifixion. That was prophesied to occur with His first coming Ministry per Isaiah 42:7. That was what the resurrection of those on the day of His crucifixion showed. When our flesh body dies, we don't literally sleep somewhere in a casket. Our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it, like Eccl.12 says. And that "spirit" of Eccl.12 does not just mean some animating force of nature that all living things have, like some men think. We all have a spirit inside our flesh, for that is what is 'born again'.

So really I'm tired of this conversation with you, because it's obvious to me (if not to others), that there is a lot of Bible Scripture that you refuse to believe. And that because your mind is obviously wrapped up in carnal fleshy thinking, and you cannot understand the concept of our spirit with soul independent of flesh.
I never said Jesus preached to demons in sheol. He preached to souls.

I accept the distinction between the soul and spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

23 May the God of shalom make you completely holy — may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Then maybe you ought to write your 'own' Bible then? Because you can't get any greater sin in that time than those in the future Millennium that follow Satan to come up against the "camp of the saints" at the end of the thousand years to try and destroy God's people.

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV
Where is sin mentioned? You are adding to God's Word. That is sin, no? Revelation 22:18-19

18 I warn everyone hearing the words of the prophecy in this book that if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues written in this book.
19 And if anyone takes anything away from the words in the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the Tree of Life and the holy city, as described in this book.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,597.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I never said Jesus preached to demons in sheol. He preached to souls.

I accept the distinction between the soul and spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

23 May the God of shalom make you completely holy — may your entire spirit, soul and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah.

Your previous posts suggests you don't recognize the mention in God's Word that man has a 'spirit' today.

You said:
"I do not accept our spirit is on earth or in us."


To believe that means to regard our earthly existence as being all about our flesh body, for if we have not a 'spirit' also in our flesh body, then nor do we have a soul, because the manifestation of spirit is not of our flesh...

John 3:6-7
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV


John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


If we don't have a spirit already inside our flesh today then how can we be "born again" of The Spirit, for Jesus made it clear that that which is born of the flesh is flesh, but that which is born of The Spirit is spirit.

Even the following shows that God created us with 3 parts in today's flesh existence...

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV


That spirit with soul (they cannot be separated), is what Apostle Paul was describing when he said if our earthy house (flesh body) were dissolved, we have (present tense) another house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (a spirit body with soul).

The idea that spirit means an animating force of nature in all living things only is the old Jewish idea that makes them believe that soul can only manifest with a flesh body. No, the "spirit" of Eccl.12 that goes back to God at flesh death of the body is about one's spirit body ("image of the heavenly") with the soul individual attached to it. It is what went into Paradise and had conscious awareness in the heavenly dimension per the rich man in Luke 16.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,597.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Where is sin mentioned? You are adding to God's Word. That is sin, no? Revelation 22:18-19

Your imagining things. What greater sin is there than following Satan instead of our Heavenly Father through His Son??? It's the very sin that Satan did in the beginning in wanting to be The GOD!!! You're not thinking!

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV



Isa 45:20-22
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside Me.

22 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
KJV
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Your previous posts suggests you don't recognize the mention in God's Word that man has a 'spirit' today.

You said:
"I do not accept our spirit is on earth or in us."


To believe that means to regard our earthly existence as being all about our flesh body, for if we have not a 'spirit' also in our flesh body, then nor do we have a soul, because the manifestation of spirit is not of our flesh...

John 3:6-7
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV


John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV


If we don't have a spirit already inside our flesh today then how can we be "born again" of The Spirit, for Jesus made it clear that that which is born of the flesh is flesh, but that which is born of The Spirit is spirit.

Even the following shows that God created us with 3 parts in today's flesh existence...

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
KJV


That spirit with soul (they cannot be separated), is what Apostle Paul was describing when he said if our earthy house (flesh body) were dissolved, we have (present tense) another house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (a spirit body with soul).

The idea that spirit means an animating force of nature in all living things only is the old Jewish idea that makes them believe that soul can only manifest with a flesh body. No, the "spirit" of Eccl.12 that goes back to God at flesh death of the body is about one's spirit body ("image of the heavenly") with the soul individual attached to it. It is what went into Paradise and had conscious awareness in the heavenly dimension per the rich man in Luke 16.
Because there is the sense that the soul is you. The body is wrapped around the soul. The spirit is wrapped around the body. Spiritual death is the spirit separated from the soul and body. Physical death is the body separated from the soul. We have the Holy Spirit in exchange for our spirit.

The use of soul and spirit are interchanged in The Bible. The very reason neing the spirit is the word also used as air or breath. Soul is not air. Soul is the heart and mind, or emotions and thoughts. If you die the air leaves your body, is a true statement. In Greek you would say spirit left the body. But your spirit is not literally air, any more than the soul is the literal heart and brain.

Revelation 6:9-11

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe.

Revelation 7:14

14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who have come out of the Great Persecution. They have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.

What is a white robe?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Your imagining things. What greater sin is there than following Satan instead of our Heavenly Father through His Son??? It's the very sin that Satan did in the beginning in wanting to be The GOD!!! You're not thinking!

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV



Isa 45:20-22
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside Me.

22 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
KJV
Because sin was the result of Adam's disobedience. Romans 5:12-14

12 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned.
13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah.
14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come.

Paul said sin was not in the world prior to Adam's disobedience.

"even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command"

Adam was not a sinner, and did not sin. Adam disobeyed God in one command and sin entered the World.

At the 7th Trumpet sin is no more. All of Adam will die. No more flesh of sin.

Therefore you cannot claim sin is in the Millennium. Do many people reject Christ's rule and follow Satan. YES!! Just like Eve and Adam did. They are not sinners and will not sin. They will listen to Satan and be consumed with fire. Adam brought sin into the world and sin has reigned for 5990 years. That ends at the 7th Trumpet. When Christ reigns disobedience is instant Death. The iron rod will brake to pieces any one who rebels.

That is the difference between sin and disobedience to a direct command of God.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Zechariah 14 reveals the "entire" earth is not going to be burned up on that "day of the Lord", because of those earth changes described there with Jesus' coming. It would appear you have failed to look up that Greek for the KJV word "elements" in that 2 Peter 3:10 passage. It does not mean earthly material elements being burned up. It means a world order. God is going to destroy man's works off the surface of this earth, that is the concept of destruction given in the 2 Peter 3 chapter, or didn't you read the early part of that chapter about the earth destroyed by a flood before in the "world that then was"? Was the entire earth destroyed then? No, of course not, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

I agree. It actually means the earth will be cleansed by fire and then restored to original edenic condition - just as the earth was destroyed by water but it’s the same planet.

Scripture indicates Jesus returns to earth, destroys the armies attacking Jerusalem, then rules the earth with a rod of iron from the earth - not from heaven, then Satan is loosed, deceives the nations into attacking the city Jesus rules from, which is why they surround just one city to attack Jesus, and then fire from heaven comes down and destroys them.

And the Bible lets us know 1/3 of the earth gets burned, and 1/4 the number of mankind is killed - not the entire earth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Davy
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes there is a time coming when all the dead will rise. But Jesus didn't say all at once. We assume that!
and you need to read REv. 20 again!
Why do I need to read it again when I've already read it a thousand times? But, not literally a thousand times.

If Jesus is the first resurrection, then the second resurrection which occurs 1,000 years after Jesus returns holds massive problems.
No, it really doesn't and you definitely didn't do anything to show that. You need to use scripture to make your arguments. Your opinions are not convincing at all.

For it is the second resurrection and all the rest of the dead who are resurrected in that resurrection, the 2nd death has authority over them.
When will believers who would die during a future thousand year earthly millennial kingdom be resurrected? Would the second death have power over them? Where does scripture speak of their resurrection?

Was Jesus mistaken when he said an hour/time was coming when all of the dead would be raised (John 5:28-29)? Did He mean to say two hours/times were coming when the dead would be raised?

Why does scripture say that God has appointed a day to judge the world (Acts 17:30-31) if there are going to be 2 days when He will judge the world (I assume you don't believe Matthew 25:31-46 is the same judgment as Rev 20:11-15)?

Scripture teaches that all of the unsaved will be killed when Christ returns (2 Peter 3:3-13, Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:1-6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, etc.). How do you reconcile this with your view that there will be mortals to populate an earthly kingdom when Christ returns?

IOW if jesus resurrection (which Jesus wasn't the first, ther was Lazarus, the widow womans and a few OT resurrections) is the first resurrection, then we are all lost!
You have no idea of what you're talking about. You say His wasn't the first resurrection? Why are you denying what scripture teaches?

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

So, He was the first to rise from the dead and we are not lost because of it despite your false claim. We are rather saved because of it! Obviously, His resurrection was not literally the first because, as you pointed out, Lazarus and some others rose from the dead before Jesus did. So, what does it mean for Him to be the first to rise from the dead (the first resurrection)? In what sense was He the first?

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death......50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This shows the context of Christ being the first to rise from the dead. He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. Notice verse 23. Christ's was the first resurrection and next in order are those "that are Christ's at His coming". When Christ returns at the last trumpet that will be "the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father". That will be when the last enemy, death, is "swallowed up in victory" and defeated and destroyed as there will then be no more death after that (Rev 21:4 - Isaiah 25:8).

So you believe that ethereal souls will reign with Christ? Sounds kind of JW to me.
What are you talking about? I am not a Jehovah's Witness, I am a Christian. Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult. Are you suggesting that I am part of a cult? Do you believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep? You apparently do. If so, you are sadly mistaken.

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The souls of dead believers are conscious in heaven. If they weren't then God wouldn't be their God as He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You, therefore, do greatly err in your apparent belief in soul sleep.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because there is the sense that the soul is you. The body is wrapped around the soul. The spirit is wrapped around the body. Spiritual death is the spirit separated from the soul and body. Physical death is the body separated from the soul. We have the Holy Spirit in exchange for our spirit.

The use of soul and spirit are interchanged in The Bible. The very reason neing the spirit is the word also used as air or breath. Soul is not air. Soul is the heart and mind, or emotions and thoughts. If you die the air leaves your body, is a true statement. In Greek you would say spirit left the body. But your spirit is not literally air, any more than the soul is the literal heart and brain.

Revelation 6:9-11

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been put to death for proclaiming the Word of God, that is, for bearing witness.
10 They cried out in a loud voice, “Sovereign Ruler, HaKadosh, the True One, how long will it be before you judge the people living on earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Each of them was given a white robe.

Revelation 7:14

14 “Sir,” I answered, “you know.” Then he told me, “These are the people who have come out of the Great Persecution. They have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.

What is a white robe?

The problem with that is that Elijah prayed for the soul of a dead boy to return to him, and when the soul returned, the dead boy was alive.

Also, the white robe represents the righteousness of the saints. Revelation 19:8.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
At the 7th Trumpet sin is no more. All of Adam will die. No more flesh of sin.

Therefore you cannot claim sin is in the Millennium. Do many people reject Christ's rule and follow Satan. YES!! Just like Eve and Adam did. They are not sinners and will not sin. They will listen to Satan and be consumed with fire. Adam brought sin into the world and sin has reigned for 5990 years. That ends at the 7th Trumpet. When Christ reigns disobedience is instant Death. The iron rod will brake to pieces any one who rebels.

That is the difference between sin and disobedience to a direct command of God.
This is the most nonsensical post that anyone has ever made on any forum on the Internet.

If you can't see any sin being committed in Revelation 20:7-9 then you are just completely spiritually blind. You just don't have a clue. At all.

You have no spiritual discernment whatsoever if you think that there isn't any sin being committed in Rev 20:7-9. How can you not consider people following after Satan and attacking God's people, as depicted in Revelation 20:7-9, as not sinning by doing so? Are you even "listening" to yourself here?

Can you explain to me how actively opposing God's people can possibly not be sin? I'll probably regret asking this question.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I agree. It actually means the earth will be cleansed by fire and then restored to original edenic condition - just as the earth was destroyed by water but it’s the same planet.
I agree, but it will be the entire earth that will be cleansed by fire, not just part of it. So, that does not allow for any mortal survivors as premils believe.

Scripture indicates Jesus returns to earth, destroys the armies attacking Jerusalem, then rules the earth with a rod of iron from the earth - not from heaven, then Satan is loosed, deceives the nations into attacking the city Jesus rules from, which is why they surround just one city to attack Jesus, and then fire from heaven comes down and destroys them.

And the Bible lets us know 1/3 of the earth gets burned, and 1/4 the number of mankind is killed - not the entire earth.
That is talking about something that happens before the day Christ returns. If you read 2 Peter 3:3-13 you should see that what is described there happens on the day He returns.

The context of 2 Peter 3:3-14 is established in verses 3 and 4 where Peter indicates that there will be scoffers in the last days mockingly asking "Where is the promise of His coming?" because they think He surely would have come by now if He was going to return.

Right after that in verses 5-7 Peter indicates that these scoffers are ignorant of the fact that the earth was flooded with water in the past (in Noah's day, obviously) and then points out that "the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire". Notice that Peter compared what will happen to the earth in the future directly to what happened to the earth in the past when it was completely flooded with water. He indicated that the level of destruction in the future will be the same as in the flood except this time it will be by fire instead of water. Your claim that only 1/3 of the earth will get burned completely contradicts what Peter taught.

In verses 8 and 9, Peter explains why it's taking a long time from a human perspective for Jesus to come back. And that is because it hasn't been a long time from God's perspective and He is wanting to give people the opportunity to repent first because He doesn't want anyone to die in their sins.

This whole time the topic hasn't changed. The topic is the second coming of Christ and deals with things happening before that day (scoffers scoffing) and on that day itself (fire coming down on the heavens and the earth).

Then Peter said this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter very clearly says here that the earth will be burned up. He gave no indication that only part of the earth will be burned up. The fact that he compared this event directly to the flood shows that the fire will come down on the entire earth.

Then notice what Peter said in verse 13. This is something very important to notice. Most premils overlook it. He said that despite the burning up of the heavens and the earth on the day Christ returns, we, according to the promise of His coming, are looking forward to "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". If an earthly millennial kingdom was going to occur after what is described in verses 10-12, then why would Peter not have said we're looking forward to that rather than the new heavens and new earth? Please answer that question.

My answer to that question is that there will be no earthly millennial kingdom because Jesus is going to put an end to sin and death and pain and sorrow on the day He returns. On the day Jesus returns He is going to take vengeance on everyone who doesn't know God or obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:7-10). Don't all unbelievers fit that description? Sure, they do. So, what mortals does that leave to populate an earthly millennial kingdom? None.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Apparently, you have no idea who is a "Jew" based on the New Testament.
Why have you redefined what Paul said below?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.



Why have you redefined what Paul said below?

Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.


You may think redefining scripture is "funny".
However, the rest of us do not.

.


Well we know there is a physical jew and a spiritual Jew. The spiritual Jews are the remnant of Israel in every generation that faithful to God. So yes I do know the difference.

And no I do not think twisting SCriptures is funny. That is why I worry about yoru refusal to show how Jesus death fuflfilled the terms of teh New Covenant as declared by God.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


1. I know that the blood Jesus shed, is the basis for the New covenant to the house of Israel and Judah.

2. Just like the blood of bulls and goats were the basis for forgiveness (actually covering) of sin in the old covenant.

3. I do not see where Gentiles being saved is part of the new covenant as spelled out in Gods word above.

4. I do not see the 7 year limit you proposed in another thread spelled out in teh New covenant terms as spelled out in Scripture.

See you could end this conversation and show me wrong by simply showing how Jesus death fulfilled the terms God gave for the new Covenant as written in Scripture in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

But you keep refusing and doing your dance around that simple query. Instead you come up with all sorts of bizarre questions, ad-hominems, wrong implications of what I say.

Why not simply show how and when Jesus fulfilled the terms god made for the new covenant? You said He did so you should be able to show the historic proof if it is as true as you say it is.
 
Upvote 0

nolidad

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 2, 2006
6,762
1,269
69
onj this planet
✟221,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No, it really doesn't and you definitely didn't do anything to show that. You need to use scripture to make your arguments. Your opinions are not convincing at all.

Okay!

You say Jesus is the "First Resurrection."

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So following your statement that Jesus only is the first resurrection- Only Jesus is considered blessed and holy in heaven,

Every one else is part of the "second resurrection" if your hypothesis is true. So all mankind is not holy and blessed. Not one. And the second death has authority over us!

So according to you every one is going to hell!

When will believers who would die during a future thousand year earthly millennial kingdom be resurrected? Would the second death have power over them? Where does scripture speak of their resurrection?

Who said they would die?

Scripture teaches that all of the unsaved will be killed when Christ returns (2 Peter 3:3-13, Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:1-6, 2 Thess 1:7-10, etc.). How do you reconcile this with your view that there will be mortals to populate an earthly kingdom when Christ returns?

You are wrongly conflating two different events into one.

2 Peter 3 is the end of time. when Jesus returns He is not going to destroy the universe! He is going to reign as king over the earth for 1,000 years. He is going to restore almost all of the earth to its Edenic origins.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. You say His wasn't the first resurrection? Why are you denying what scripture teaches?

Once again you are conflating two events and falsely making them one. Yes Jesus is the first to be resurrected never to die and recieve a glorifed physical immortal body.

but that is not teh first resurrection either contextually, hermenutically, or grammatically described in REv. 20. If it is all mankind MUST be lost for if all mankind is part of teh seocnd resurrection, we are not holy, we are not blessed and the second death has authority over us which is eternity in the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well we know there is a physical jew and a spiritual Jew. The spiritual Jews are the remnant of Israel in every generation that faithful to God. So yes I do know the difference.

And no I do not think twisting SCriptures is funny. That is why I worry about yoru refusal to show how Jesus death fuflfilled the terms of teh New Covenant as declared by God.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


1. I know that the blood Jesus shed, is the basis for the New covenant to the house of Israel and Judah.

2. Just like the blood of bulls and goats were the basis for forgiveness (actually covering) of sin in the old covenant.

3. I do not see where Gentiles being saved is part of the new covenant as spelled out in Gods word above.

4. I do not see the 7 year limit you proposed in another thread spelled out in teh New covenant terms as spelled out in Scripture.

See you could end this conversation and show me wrong by simply showing how Jesus death fulfilled the terms God gave for the new Covenant as written in Scripture in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

But you keep refusing and doing your dance around that simple query. Instead you come up with all sorts of bizarre questions, ad-hominems, wrong implications of what I say.

Why not simply show how and when Jesus fulfilled the terms god made for the new covenant? You said He did so you should be able to show the historic proof if it is as true as you say it is.


Can you explain why the author of the Book of Hebrews quoted Jeremiah 31:31-34 word-for-word in Hebrews 8:6-13, and begins the passage with the word "now" if the promised New Covenant is not now in effect?

Can you explain why the same author quoted part of the same passage and once again used the word "now" in Hebrews 10:16-18, if the promised New Covenant is not now in effect?

.....................................................

What would an unbiased witness say about the scripture found below?

Do you believe what Jesus said about the fulfillment of the New Covenant?


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,597.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I agree. It actually means the earth will be cleansed by fire and then restored to original edenic condition - just as the earth was destroyed by water but it’s the same planet.

Scripture indicates Jesus returns to earth, destroys the armies attacking Jerusalem, then rules the earth with a rod of iron from the earth - not from heaven, then Satan is loosed, deceives the nations into attacking the city Jesus rules from, which is why they surround just one city to attack Jesus, and then fire from heaven comes down and destroys them.

And the Bible lets us know 1/3 of the earth gets burned, and 1/4 the number of mankind is killed - not the entire earth.

And it's just that easy. Good job sticking with God's written Word.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Davy

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟267,597.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Because there is the sense that the soul is you. The body is wrapped around the soul. The spirit is wrapped around the body.

The spirit is wrapped around the body??? No such idea written.

Our spirit is from God in the heavenly, not part of our flesh body. Once again, that was plainly shown in the Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 Scripture, and other Scripture like 1 Peter 3 about the "spirits in prison" which Jesus went to the pit prison at His resurrection and preached The Gospel to, and led those out that believed (per Isaiah 42:7).

1 Thess 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

KJV

In Matthew 10:28, Jesus showed that if the flesh body is killed, the soul continues, which means the soul is not of flesh origin, but of the heavenly, like one's spirit also is. Thus one's spirit and soul are together, both from the heavenly dimension. But the flesh body is from earth material matter. At death one's flesh is simply cast off, and the spiritual body with soul is freed from its shell.

This is why believers on Christ have also had near-death experiences (NDE) where they found theirselves outside their flesh body, yet very alive and aware in that other dimension. The film actor Clint Walker gave a very detailed description of his NDE experience from a ski accident. The description in 2 Corinthians 12 by Apostle Paul was most likely about a NDE that Paul himself had, since he was at one time stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19).
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Okay!

You say Jesus is the "First Resurrection."

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


So following your statement that Jesus only is the first resurrection- Only Jesus is considered blessed and holy in heaven,

Every one else is part of the "second resurrection" if your hypothesis is true. So all mankind is not holy and blessed. Not one. And the second death has authority over us!

So according to you every one is going to hell!
Goodness gracious. You don't have a clue about what I believe, so please pay closer attention. I have said many times on here that while His resurrection is the first resurrection we have part in His resurrection spiritually when we're born again/saved. So, all of the souls John saw would have had part in His resurrection because they were saved. The following is how I believe we have part in Christ's resurrection:

Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Who said they would die?
Where does scripture teach that no believers would die during the thousand years? So, you believe the ones who are there from the beginning will all live to be 1000+ years old? Again, where is the scripture that teaches this?

Think about it. If no believers can die during the thousand years, then why does a number of unbelievers as the sand of the seashore try to go and attack them (Revelation 20:7-9)? If these believers who would be on the earth during the thousand years can't die, then what could anyone do to them and why would anyone try to attack them?

You are wrongly conflating two different events into one.

2 Peter 3 is the end of time. when Jesus returns He is not going to destroy the universe! He is going to reign as king over the earth for 1,000 years. He is going to restore almost all of the earth to its Edenic origins.
Please go through 2 Peter 3:3-13 verse by verse like I did and show me where you see any possibility of a 1000 year time period between His coming and the burning up of the earth.

Can't you see that the entire passage is about His coming? Notice in verses 3 and 4 are referring to last days scoffers mocking the idea of His coming. Do you think those scoffers will somehow avoid the wrath that is described in 2 Peter 3:10-13? The wrath coming down upon the earth is going to be because of scoffers like that.

Can you please break 2 Peter 3:3-13 verse by verse like I did so I can see exactly how you interpret it?

Once again you are conflating two events and falsely making them one. Yes Jesus is the first to be resurrected never to die and recieve a glorifed physical immortal body.

but that is not teh first resurrection either contextually, hermenutically, or grammatically described in REv. 20.
It doesn't matter what you think is described, it matters that your premil doctrine does not line up with scripture like 2 Peter 3:3-13, John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 24:35-39, Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and many other scripture passages.

If it is all mankind MUST be lost for if all mankind is part of teh seocnd resurrection, we are not holy, we are not blessed and the second death has authority over us which is eternity in the lake of fire.
You're not thinking about what it means to have part in the first resurrection. You're assuming that it refers to the mass resurrection of believers at His coming but I already showed from 1 Cor 15:22-23 that Christ's resurrection is the first unto bodily immortality and next in order is the mass resurrection of believers at His coming. We don't have to be bodily resurrected in order to have part in Christ's resurrection. We have part in His resurrection by way of being raised up spiritually to sit with Him in heavenly places as Ephesians 2:4-6 talks about.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well we know there is a physical jew and a spiritual Jew. The spiritual Jews are the remnant of Israel in every generation that faithful to God. So yes I do know the difference.
How do you figure that spiritual Jews have to also be physical Jews? That is not at all what Paul said here:

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The part in blue described a physical Jew. Paul is contrasting the requirements for being a physical Jew and being a spiritual Jew. It is someone who is only a Jew physically as they have been circumcised and such. Paul very specifically indicates that being a spiritual Jew (a Jew, which is one inwardly) has NOTHING at all to do with being a physical Jew. That means being a physical Jew is not required in order to be a spiritual Jew.

The requirement for being a spiritual Jew is only that you have to have been circumcised "of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter".

The following passages describe those who have been spiritually circumcised:

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Obviously, Paul was writing about both Jew and Gentile believers here. Therefore, all believers are circumcised "of the heart, in the spirit" and all believers are spiritual Jews. Only doctrinal bias and a carnal (earthly rather than spiritual and heavenly) mindset can prevent someone from seeing this.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
This shows the context of Christ being the first to rise from the dead. He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. Notice verse 23. Christ's was the first resurrection and next in order are those "that are Christ's at His coming". When Christ returns at the last trumpet that will be "the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father". That will be when the last enemy, death, is "swallowed up in victory" and defeated and destroyed as there will then be no more death after that (Rev 21:4 - Isaiah 25:8).
The first to rise from the dead bodily. If this is your point, it is the only point. The first resurrection is a type, not a when. Lazarus was dead 4 Days. By all that is physical at that day in time, his body was beyond use. Nothing in it would work. Any resurrection would be bodily. Lazarus was the first human to hear the Lord's voice and walk out of the grave with a new permanent body, that was incorruptible.

Prove to me why you think God would only repair the old carnal body. Lazarus heard the voice and came out. It would make Jesus a liar, that all who hear his voice and come out of the grave would be changed. It would be a half way job. God would have failed. Yes God could have done either. Heal the old or change the old. Jesus specifically waited until the point healing the old would be an impossibility. But to you, changing the body is a greater impossibility. If God was proving your point, God would accomplish the greater impossibility, to prove to you, it was a changed incorruptible body. The same thing applies to those many, coming out of their graves at the point when Jesus said, "It is finished". Time was up for those in Abraham's bosom. They heard the voice of Jesus and came out of their graves. All received an incorruptible body, just like Lazarus and Christ. Lazarus would not remain on earth, but would ascend with the rest when Jesus ascended between meeting with Mary and meeting with the two unnamed disciples. Mark 16:9-13

9 When Yeshua rose early Sunday, he appeared first to Miryam of Magdala, from whom he had expelled seven demons.
10 She went and told those who had been with him, as they were crying and mourning.
11 But when they heard that he was alive and that she had seen him, they wouldn’t believe it.
12 After that, Yeshua appeared in another form to two of them as they were walking into the country.
13 They went and told the others, but they didn’t believe them either.

Verse 12 states Jesus was in another form, different than His meeting with Mary form. He had already ascended and presented the Atonement on the alter, along with leading all those who heard His voice into that heavenly city, Paradise.

It does not matter at any time when the first resurrection happens. The first resurrection is the bodily resurrection. It applied to Lazarus who was in Abraham's bosom. It applied to everyone else in Abraham's bosom. It applies to physical death, when the soul is called from one body to the permanent, incorruptible body in Paradise.

It even applies to those in Revelation 20:4 who are given an incorruptible body to live on earth, at that time, in the future. They have not been beheaded yet. They do not go back in time to the Cross and ascend to Paradise. Those in Revelation 20:4 are not those coming out of Abraham's bosom. First is not a when, it is the bodily type of resurrection.

If you claim the church has to wait until the Second Coming to have a body, that is your choice. It means the OT are in Paradise with a body. But the church is walking around as naked souls per Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:3

3 With this around us we will not be found naked.

Paul preferred not to be naked, but clothed with the permanent, incorruptible body. His opinion seems better than modern theology.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The problem with that is that Elijah prayed for the soul of a dead boy to return to him, and when the soul returned, the dead boy was alive.

Also, the white robe represents the righteousness of the saints. Revelation 19:8.
The soul did leave and returned. How is that a problem? It went to Abraham's bosom and returned. One can speculate the how, the time, and create a movie narrative. The simple fact is the soul left, and God allowed it to return.

Revelation 19:7-8

7 “Let us rejoice and be glad!
Let us give him the glory!
For the time has come for the
wedding of the Lamb,
and his Bride has prepared herself —
8 fine linen, bright and clean
has been given her to wear.”

(“Fine linen” means the righteous deeds of God’s people.)

The wedding garment is not the robe of white. I think that would be a gown.

Gown: a long dress, typically having a close-fitting bodice and a flared or flowing skirt, worn on formal occasions.

Robe: a long, loose outer garment.
 
Upvote 0