Changing your mind about prophecy

John Helpher

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Weird that this video considers post trib to be pre wrath. Post trib usually means after all the wrath God pours out as well.

No. Tribulation and wrath are different. The Great Tribulation is marked by 7 Trumpets. The wrath is marked by 7 vials (or bowls) of wrath and they each describe quite different events.

Also, consider revelation 11:15, the sounding of the 7th trumpet: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the return of Jesus. Paul also notes that Jesus returns at the last Trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52). Jesus himself describes a time of great tribulation such as the world has never seen, and then says, when he returns, it will be with the trump of God (Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29-31).

Also note in Revelation 11:18, just after the 7th Trumpet sounds and Jesus takes over, it says the nations were angry and "your wrath has come". Do you see that? Seventh Trumpet, Jesus takes over, then the wrath comes to be poured out on a spiritually desolate world (because all God's people have been taken up at the sounding of the 7th trumpet).

Then, compare this with Revelation 19 which starts with the marriage supper of the lamb. The saints are there, participating in the marriage supper. There's a lot of praise for God and celebrating, at which time the saints are given new clothing, clean linen, fine and white, which is described as the righteousness of the saints (Revelation 19:8).

Shortly after this, all these saints gather behind Jesus to prepare for war. They ride down from the place they were raptured up to (Revelation 21:2 describes this place a "New Jerusalem come down from Heaven" and then gives a lengthy description of this "city's" physical attributes). The war they're riding down to is the battle of Armageddon, the last bowl of God's wrath.

Two simultaneous events happening at concurrently; up in New Jerusalem, the marriage supper of the lamb is happening. Down on a spiritually desolate earth, the wrath is being poured out, both of which culminate in the battle of Armageddon.
 
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Douggg

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Also, consider revelation 11:15, the sounding of the 7th trumpet: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the return of Jesus.
No, it is not the return of Jesus, but the sounding of the 7th trumpet announces God taking His sovereignty and begins dismantling of Satan and his angels' kingdom from its control and influence over the nations of the world.

The 7th trumpet begins to sound a time/times/half time before Jesus returns.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

__________________________________

The 7th trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. Which will be Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing he has but a little time left. The time/times/half time.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
 
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John Helpher

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I watched, but where were the arguments for post-trib?

One of the more powerful arguments in the video which really inspired me was the idea that Christians need to prepare themselves for suffering and tribulation; that these things are just a natural, inextricable part of what it means to follow Jesus. You will not have one without the other.

Whereas, the pre-trib postion seems to be the opposite; it is all about escaping any need to suffer for our faith. Suffering comes as a result of standing up for the principles of the kingdom of Heaven. You won't get suffering or tribulation when you're playing it safe and hiding from the world. Tribulation will come as a result of making a stand.

If Jesus had just kept his head down and returned to the family business, he could have avoided all that tribulation he went through. It is the same for us; if we just keep our heads down, if we just mind our own business and do our best to conform with the worldly system, then then worldly system will have no need to persecute us.

The Great Tribulation will be one, last warning to the world and we will be the representatives of that warning. It would make no sense for God to take his servants from the world just when the world will need them most. We will be the spiritual leaders at that time, demonstrating through our suffering and persecution that there really is a God and he really is worthy dying for.

I have the feeling, based on your response, that you are a pre-tribber. Given this, it makes sense that you would so totally miss the lesson in the video about our need to confront suffering and tribulation as part of our Christian testimony to the world; that argument is invisible to you, because your position is the opposite; you desire escape from those things.
 
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Douggg

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One of the more powerful arguments in the video which really inspired me was the idea that Christians need to prepare themselves for suffering and tribulation; that these things are just a natural, inextricable part of what it means to follow Jesus. You will not have one without the other.

Whereas, the pre-trib postion seems to be the opposite; it is all about escaping any need to suffer for our faith. Suffering comes as a result of standing up for the principles of the kingdom of Heaven. You won't get suffering or tribulation when you're playing it safe and hiding from the world. Tribulation will come as a result of making a stand.

If Jesus had just kept his head down and returned to the family business, he could have avoided all that tribulation he went through. It is the same for us; if we just keep our heads down, if we just mind our own business and do our best to conform with the worldly system, then then worldly system will have no need to persecute us.

The Great Tribulation will be one, last warning to the world and we will be the representatives of that warning. It would make no sense for God to take his servants from the world just when the world will need them most. We will be the spiritual leaders at that time, demonstrating through our suffering and persecution that there really is a God and he really is worthy dying for.

I have the feeling, based on your response, that you are a pre-tribber. Given this, it makes sense that you would so totally miss the lesson in the video about our need to confront suffering and tribulation as part of our Christian testimony to the world; that argument is invisible to you, because your position is the opposite; you desire escape from those things.
It seems to me the video is preaching works, and not grace.
 
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John Helpher

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It seems to me the video is preaching works, and not grace.

Can you quote the specific part of the video which you think is promoting works, and what do you mean by "works"? Do you mean obedience to Jesus?
 
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Rachel20

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Whereas, the pre-trib postion seems to be the opposite; it is all about escaping any need to suffer for our faith.

This is what I meant by strawman. It asserts my belief is all about escaping sufferring, then asserts post-trib is true because my motive is wrong.

I have the feeling, based on your response, that you are a pre-tribber. ... you desire escape from those things.

And again here.
 
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rockytopva

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Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

"I come as a thief" If this was in any part of the tribulation it would be rather well announced don't you think?

"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." - Luke 12:40 Matthew 24:44

So... If we do not know...

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:42

And if you are found watching....

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. - Matthew 24:46-47
 
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rockytopva

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Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

"I come as a thief" If this was in any part of the tribulation it would be rather well announced don't you think?

"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." - Luke 12:40 Matthew 24:44

So... If we do not know...

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:42

And if you are found watching....

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. - Matthew 24:46-47
What is the council of those not expecting Christ's return as imminent?

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 24
 
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Rachel20

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... you would so totally miss the lesson in the video about our need to confront suffering and tribulation as part of our Christian testimony to the world;

You're making a category error here. The tribulation that the Lord said we'll all have in this life is not the same as the great tribulation. He shows this in Matthew 24:21 - For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is not the same "tribulation" that believers suffer in common. It helps to understand the purpose of the great tribulation (Daniel 9:24)
 
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Rachel20

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Are you saying this is inaccurate? I mean, that's my understanding of pre-trib rapture belief; it is an escape from suffering, right?

That is inaccurate, yes. It may have been your motive and is why you attribute it to others?
 
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rockytopva

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What is the council of those not expecting Christ's return as imminent?

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 24
The last words of Christ before rising on Ascension Day....

And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. - Acts 1:7-8
 
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John Helpher

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That is inaccurate, yes. It may have been your motive and is why you attribute it to others?

I'm just trying to understand your position. I asserted that belief in the pre-trib rapture is based on a desire to escape suffering. Now you're saying this assertion is inaccurate, which suggests that being raptured before the Great Tribulation is not about escaping suffering.

It sounds like you want to say that you're prepared to suffer for your faith (because that is more consistent with the actual teachings of Jesus; you know you're supposed to be willing to suffer and lay your life down), but in your heart of hearts, what you really want is to escape suffering.

It's possible I'm mistaken about this but in pretty much all my discussions with pre-tribbers, the whole point is escape.
 
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rockytopva

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If I had to pick an end time date I would go, word by word, with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

I believe, then, the 2060 prophecy as closest, noting room for error as in Newton's quote. But... My goodness... 2060 is a lot closer than it was when Isaac Newton uttered these words 300 years ago!
 
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Rachel20

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but in your heart of hearts, what you really want is to escape suffering.

You're wrong, but it wouldn't matter anyway. Your argument is an appeal to consequences. Though a twist, because you're saying the belief that has undesirable consequences must be the true one -

Appeal to consequences, also known as argumentum ad consequentiam (Latin for "argument to the consequence"), is an argument that concludes a hypothesis (typically a belief) to be either true or false based on whether the premise leads to desirable or undesirable consequences.[
 
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Rachel20

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Isaiah 26:19-21 has the order right -

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Here, you see the dead in Christ rising first. Then those which are alive entering their chambers (in my Fathers house are many chambers), then the great tribulation.
 
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John Helpher

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You're wrong, but it wouldn't matter anyway.

This doesn't sound like an explanation of what you believe. You say I'm wrong, but you won't say how my assessment was wrong. You say you're not just looking for an escape from suffering, and yet that is the foundation of what the pre-trib rapture is; an escape from suffering.

I don't think anyone wants to suffer; Jesus himself asked that the cup of suffering would pass from him, but he also recognized a responsibility to stand up for what is right. The most common result to standing up for what is right, in an unright world, is persecution for that stance.

Suffering, persecution, and tribulation are unavoidable parts of what it means to be a Christian.
 
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jgr

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could pre trib be the fulfillment of

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The fulfillment began in the period leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem, and has periodically reappeared ever since.


Ralph Woodrow, Great Prophecies of the Bible

According to Josephus, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."
 
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