Calvinism and Abortion

SPF said:

I don't see how that corresponds to Jesus saying this:

Verse 44 states: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

It sounds like Jesus was saying that on their own (The Jews), they were incapable of choosing Christ without the Father drawing them in. Yet, you're saying the opposite. Let me give it a try and you can tell me what you think, contrary to what you've been ignorantly asserting, this will be my first attempt at interpretation. And I'll even use your assumption that what Jesus said here has nothing to do with us and was entirely for the Jews.

1. The Jews in the OT were incapable of coming to Christ (they didn't even know they were coming to Christ) without the Father drawing them.

2. The Jews in the OT, while possessing an inherited sinful nature, were still not so corrupt as to have no desire to seek God daily and to learn about the Father.

3. The Father, seeing who actually had a free willed desire to learn about Him would then, based upon the free will inclinations of the Jews, choose to draw 100% of those to Christ.

Is that what you're trying to say? If not, I'll need you to try and do a better job of clarifying.

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Again, the condition was that the OT saint who was already learning of the Father (i.e. John 6:45) implies they had a relationship and or walk with GOD before they were being drawn by the Father to Jesus. They were not sinful unbelievers who did not know God coming to the faith for the first time. OT saints walked with God. Or did you forget about Enoch who walked with God and then he was not? Why do you think Enoch did not see death? Do you think it had to do with the way that he lived holy before the Lord?

So John 6:44 is not proof of the Calvinistic interpretation that is suggesting that this is an unbeliever being drawn or someone who is unconverted or unregenerate. John 6:44 does not apply to us because we are not Jews who walked with GOD under the Old Covenant. John 6:44-45 is talking about those who walked with GOD under the Old Covenant and who were simply continuing on with GOD through the new program (or New Covenant) by their accepting the Messiah.

As for your claim that OT saints always possessed a sinful nature:

I replied to you in the following thread link because I am not allowed to discuss a particular topic that addresses your claim here.

Post #247 - What does Scripture mean about perfection?

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, the condition was that the OT saint who was already learning of the Father (i.e. John 6:45) implies they had a relationship and or walk with GOD before they were being drawn by the Father to Jesus.

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I think the statement that they had a relationship with God and or a walk with God before they were being drawn flatly contradicts the actual verse.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draw him."

But let's put together what you're trying to say and see if it makes any sort of sense.

In chapter 6 we have Jewish people questioning Jesus' legitimacy. So Jesus responds to these Jews by saying in verse 44 that none of them can come to Him unless the Father calls them.

He says in verse 45 that everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Him. So you're idea is that the people who Jesus is referencing in verse 45 are the "true followers", right?

But none of that changes the fact that the Father must "draw" the person to Christ first.

What do you think Jesus means by the term "draw him"?

Here's a few commentaries on it:

Draw him - This word is used here, evidently, to denote such an influence from God as to secure the result, or as to incline the mind to believe

Except the Father - draw him - But how is a man drawn? St. Augustin answers from the poet, Trahit sua quemque voluptas; a man is attracted by that which he delights in. Show green herbage to a sheep, he is drawn by it: show nuts to a child, and he is drawn by them. They run wherever the person runs who shows these things: they run after him, but they are not forced to follow; they run, through the desire they feel to get the things they delight in. So God draws man: he shows him his wants - he shows the Savior whom he has provided for him: the man feels himself a lost sinner; and, through the desire which he finds to escape hell, and get to heaven, he comes unto Christ, that he may be justified by his blood. Unless God thus draw, no man will ever come to Christ; because none could, without this drawing, ever feel the need of a Savior

except the Father which hath sent me, draw him: which is not to be understood of moral persuasion, or a being persuaded and prevailed upon to come to Christ by the consideration of the mighty works which God had done to justify that he was the true Messiah, but of the internal and powerful influence of the grace of God; for this act of drawing is something distinct from, and superior to, both doctrine and miracles. The Capernaites had heard the doctrine of Christ, which was taught with authority, and had seen his miracles, which were full proofs of his being the Messiah, and yet believed not, but murmured at his person and parentage. This gave occasion to Christ to observe to them, that something more than these was necessary to their coming to him, or savingly believing in him; even the powerful and efficacious grace of the Father in drawing: and if it be considered what men in conversion are drawn off "from" and "to", from their beloved lusts and darling righteousness; to look unto, and rely upon Christ alone for salvation; from that which was before so very agreeable, to that which, previous to this work, was so very disagreeable; to what else can this be ascribed, but to unfrustrable and insuperable grace?

Draw - Christ having checked their murmuring, continues what he was saying, Joh 6:40. No man comes to me, unless my Father draw him - No man can believe in Christ, unless God give him power: he draws us first, by good desires. Not by compulsion, not by laying the will under any necessity; but by the strong and sweet, yet still resistible, motions of his heavenly grace.

SPF said:

I think the statement that they had a relationship with God and or a walk with God before they were being drawn flatly contradicts the actual verse.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draw him."

But let's put together what you're trying to say and see if it makes any sort of sense.

In chapter 6 we have Jewish people questioning Jesus' legitimacy. So Jesus responds to these Jews by saying in verse 44 that none of them can come to Him unless the Father calls them.

He says in verse 45 that everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Him. So you're idea is that the people who Jesus is referencing in verse 45 are the "true followers", right?

But none of that changes the fact that the Father must "draw" the person to Christ first.

What do you think Jesus means by the term "draw him"?

Here's a few commentaries on it:

Draw him - This word is used here, evidently, to denote such an influence from God as to secure the result, or as to incline the mind to believe

Except the Father - draw him - But how is a man drawn? St. Augustin answers from the poet, Trahit sua quemque voluptas; a man is attracted by that which he delights in. Show green herbage to a sheep, he is drawn by it: show nuts to a child, and he is drawn by them. They run wherever the person runs who shows these things: they run after him, but they are not forced to follow; they run, through the desire they feel to get the things they delight in. So God draws man: he shows him his wants - he shows the Savior whom he has provided for him: the man feels himself a lost sinner; and, through the desire which he finds to escape hell, and get to heaven, he comes unto Christ, that he may be justified by his blood. Unless God thus draw, no man will ever come to Christ; because none could, without this drawing, ever feel the need of a Savior

except the Father which hath sent me, draw him: which is not to be understood of moral persuasion, or a being persuaded and prevailed upon to come to Christ by the consideration of the mighty works which God had done to justify that he was the true Messiah, but of the internal and powerful influence of the grace of God; for this act of drawing is something distinct from, and superior to, both doctrine and miracles. The Capernaites had heard the doctrine of Christ, which was taught with authority, and had seen his miracles, which were full proofs of his being the Messiah, and yet believed not, but murmured at his person and parentage. This gave occasion to Christ to observe to them, that something more than these was necessary to their coming to him, or savingly believing in him; even the powerful and efficacious grace of the Father in drawing: and if it be considered what men in conversion are drawn off "from" and "to", from their beloved lusts and darling righteousness; to look unto, and rely upon Christ alone for salvation; from that which was before so very agreeable, to that which, previous to this work, was so very disagreeable; to what else can this be ascribed, but to unfrustrable and insuperable grace?

Draw - Christ having checked their murmuring, continues what he was saying, Joh 6:40. No man comes to me, unless my Father draw him - No man can believe in Christ, unless God give him power: he draws us first, by good desires. Not by compulsion, not by laying the will under any necessity; but by the strong and sweet, yet still resistible, motions of his heavenly grace.

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Again, the fact that they learned of the Father (verse 45) suggests that they were not being unlearned and untaught and without knowledge of the things of God. Being drawn follows (verse 44) after one has learned of the Father that suggests that there is a relationship there in order to learn and not some kind of unbelief beforehand. They are drawn because they have already committed themselves by learning of the Father (verse 45). These are Jews here and not Gentiles, too.

Also, to look to commentaries to prove your case is not really proof of anything. Commentaries come from men who are respected among the religious community. It does not mean that they are 100% correct on their interpretation of Scripture. For if all we needed was to point to a commentary, then there would be no need to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15). We can just be spoon fed everything mindlessly. So I don't agree with their Calvinistic interpretations or leanings.

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, the fact that they learned of the Father (verse 45) suggests that they were not being unlearned and untaught and without knowledge of the things of God. Being drawn follows (verse 44) after one has learned of the Father that suggests that there is a relationship there in order to learn and not some kind of unbelief beforehand. They are drawn because they have already committed themselves by learning of the Father (verse 45). These are Jews here and not Gentiles, too.

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I'm honestly just having trouble seeing the consistency in your interpretation of this passage, it seems like you're really working hard to make this passage fit your personal view instead of letting it just say what it says.

6:37 - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

There seems to be an order of things in this verse. First is that the Father gives people to Christ, and secondly that all that the Father gives to Christ, Christ accepts, none are rejected.

So the natural question that should stem from this verse is what does it mean that the Father "gives" people to Christ?

6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus clarifies to the grumbling Jews that are questioning his authority that none of them can come to Him anyway unless the Father first draws them. This is significant, it's not an empty statement. Jesus is saying that before any of those Jews accept Christ that they must first be drawn by the Father.

So these two verses seem very consistent. Verse 37 says that the Father gives people to Jesus, and verse 44 says that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father first draws them.

I have yet to see you really address this head on. What does it mean to draw them to Christ? You seem to think there is no significance to that statement.

I'm personally left with two questions:

1. What does Jesus mean by saying that nobody (Jew if you want) can come to Him without the Father first drawing them?

2. Does the Father draw all Jews? It would seem He does not. So what does the Father base his drawing on?

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, to look to commentaries to prove your case is not really proof of anything. Commentaries come from men who are respected among the religious community. It does not mean that they are 100% correct on their interpretation of Scripture. For if all we needed was to point to a commentary, then there would be no need to study to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15). We can just be spoon fed everything mindlessly. So I don't agree with their Calvinistic interpretations or leanings.

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Commentaries are certainly not the inspired Word. Commentaries certainly do not have everything right, and commentaries certainly disagree with each other.

But commentaries are a great resource, and when people, such as yourself reject commentaries outright and instead think so highly of their own hermeneutical skills, that gives me pause. Biblical education is helpful in proper exegesis. Understanding and knowing Greek and Hebrew does help.

And when it comes down to the fact that after pouring over about a dozen commentaries (of which I have no clue what most of their theological bent is) I can't find any that support what you say, I have to wonder - what do you bring to your interpretation beyond, "Because I said so". Do you have any education?

SPF said:

I'm honestly just having trouble seeing the consistency in your interpretation of this passage, it seems like you're really working hard to make this passage fit your personal view instead of letting it just say what it says.

6:37 - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

There seems to be an order of things in this verse. First is that the Father gives people to Christ, and secondly that all that the Father gives to Christ, Christ accepts, none are rejected.

So the natural question that should stem from this verse is what does it mean that the Father "gives" people to Christ?

6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus clarifies to the grumbling Jews that are questioning his authority that none of them can come to Him anyway unless the Father first draws them. This is significant, it's not an empty statement. Jesus is saying that before any of those Jews accept Christ that they must first be drawn by the Father.

So these two verses seem very consistent. Verse 37 says that the Father gives people to Jesus, and verse 44 says that nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father first draws them.

I have yet to see you really address this head on. What does it mean to draw them to Christ? You seem to think there is no significance to that statement.

I'm personally left with two questions:

1. What does Jesus mean by saying that nobody (Jew if you want) can come to Him without the Father first drawing them?

2. Does the Father draw all Jews? It would seem He does not. So what does the Father base his drawing on?


Commentaries are certainly not the inspired Word. Commentaries certainly do not have everything right, and commentaries certainly disagree with each other.

But commentaries are a great resource, and when people, such as yourself reject commentaries outright and instead think so highly of their own hermeneutical skills, that gives me pause. Biblical education is helpful in proper exegesis. Understanding and knowing Greek and Hebrew does help.

And when it comes down to the fact that after pouring over about a dozen commentaries (of which I have no clue what most of their theological bent is) I can't find any that support what you say, I have to wonder - what do you bring to your interpretation beyond, "Because I said so". Do you have any education?

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Again, the context here is the Jews and not Gentiles. You are flatly ignoring verse 45 in order to make your interpretation work. You are ignoring that Jesus was referring to believing Jews here and not unbelieving Gentiles. The context are believing Jews who have learned of the Father who come to Jesus. Verse 45 is not referring to unbelieving Gentiles but believing Jews. But of course this contradicts your Calvinistic leanings or slight bias involving verse 44. What this really is all about is responsbility. The Calvinist is not about wanting to take responsibility properly. They make God the One who is responsible for a person sinning or not sinning or being saved or not saved. God forces His salvation upon others in the Calvinistic universe. But this is not what the Bible teaches. I already shown you verses that man is responsible for accepting God. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 should give you pause, but like John 6:45, you just ignore it or dance your way around it.

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, the context here is the Jews and not Gentiles. You are flatly ignoring verse 45 in order to make your interpretation work. You are ignoring that Jesus was referring to believing Jews here and not unbelieving Gentiles. The context are believing Jews who have learned of the Father who come to Jesus. Verse 45 is not referring to unbelieving Gentiles but believing Jews. But of course this contradicts your Calvinistic leanings or slight bias involving verse 44. What this really is all about is responsbility. The Calvinist is not about wanting to take responsibility properly. They make God the One who is responsible for a person sinning or not sinning or being saved or not saved. God forces His salvation upon others in the Calvinistic universe. But this is not what the Bible teaches. I already shown you verses that man is responsible for accepting God. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 should give you pause, but like John 6:45, you just ignore it or dance your way around it.

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Your response is a perfect example of why these conversations are generally fruitless. Your response literally had nothing to do with what I wrote. You didn’t respond to any of the questions I asked, and you continue to ignore what Jesus actually said.

You’re so tied up in your personal opinion that you are literally pretending that Jesus didn’t say what he did.

I’m sure given your response it’s impossible to actually talk to you, but please feel free to read back over my previous reply and actually address what I wrote and what I asked. I’m not hopeful though.

SPF said:

Your response is a perfect example of why these conversations are generally fruitless. Your response literally had nothing to do with what I wrote. You didn’t respond to any of the questions I asked, and you continue to ignore what Jesus actually said.

You’re so tied up in your personal opinion that you are literally pretending that Jesus didn’t say what he did.

I’m sure given your response it’s impossible to actually talk to you, but please feel free to read back over my previous reply and actually address what I wrote and what I asked. I’m not hopeful though.

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And who is the one who is ignoring verse 45? You really do not have an explanation that fits what the text plainly says in verse 45. You have to rewrite John 6:45 or ignore it in what it plainly says to make your Calvinistic leanings on John 6:44 work. The Calvinist thinks Jesus is talking to the new convert or unbelieving Gentile coming to the faith in John 6:44, when we know that Jesus went first to the Jews before the cross and not the Gentiles. We also know verse 45 says that those who are drawn have learned of the Father (Which suggests a prior relationship with God). John 6:44 is not referring to the unbeliever in context. You have to ignore or twist the Scriptures to make it say otherwise.

SPF said:

Your response is a perfect example of why these conversations are generally fruitless. Your response literally had nothing to do with what I wrote. You didn’t respond to any of the questions I asked, and you continue to ignore what Jesus actually said.

You’re so tied up in your personal opinion that you are literally pretending that Jesus didn’t say what he did.

I’m sure given your response it’s impossible to actually talk to you, but please feel free to read back over my previous reply and actually address what I wrote and what I asked. I’m not hopeful though.

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Before you reply again, please explain to us what John 6:45 says. No commentaries that seek to use words that sound fancy and smart and yet they have no real substance. Explain in simple terms what John 6:45 says in your own words that are simple. Give us a word for word commentary without you having to copy and paste someone else’s work.

Bible Highlighter said:

Before you reply again, please explain to us what John 6:45 says. No commentaries that seek to use words that sound fancy and smart and yet they have no real substance. Explain in simple terms what John 6:45 says in your own words that are simple. Give us a word for word commentary without you having to copy and paste someone else’s work.

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How about you actually read and reply to my post #444.

Since you know exactly what verse 45 means and think it magically addresses and explains all the preceding verses, how about you actually just reply to post #444 and directly answer my questions?

You have yet to give any specific explanation to my questions. You just keep pretending as if the word “draw” doesn’t mean “draw”.

Bible Highlighter said:

You are ignoring that Jesus was referring to believing Jews here and not unbelieving Gentiles. The context are believing Jews who have learned of the Father who come to Jesus.

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This seems problematic as Jesus is addressing Jews here were grumbling and questioning His authority. They don’t sound like Jews who were accepting Jesus at all.

SPF said:

I'm honestly just having trouble seeing the consistency in your interpretation of this passage, it seems like you're really working hard to make this passage fit your personal view instead of letting it just say what it says.

6:37 - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

There seems to be an order of things in this verse. First is that the Father gives people to Christ, and secondly that all that the Father gives to Christ, Christ accepts, none are rejected. So the natural question that should stem from this verse is what does it mean that the Father "gives" people to Christ?

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1 Peter 1:1-2 tells us that God the Father elects accord to His foreknowledge. So the choice is not based on some “unconditional election.” So the election and drawing is based upon something God the Father sees in an individual and their potential to further God’s kingdom.

You said:

6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus clarifies to the grumbling Jews that are questioning his authority that none of them can come to Him anyway unless the Father first draws them. This is significant, it's not an empty statement. Jesus is saying that before any of those Jews accept Christ that they must first be drawn by the Father.

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No. They need to first learn of the Father by walking with Him prior to being drawn to Jesus. This is the Jew and not the Gentile.

You said:

1. What does Jesus mean by saying that nobody (Jew if you want) can come to Him without the Father first drawing them?

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It means that only the OT Saints who walked with God can come to Jesus and are drawn by the Father to Jesus.

You said:

2. Does the Father draw all Jews? It would seem He does not. So what does the Father base his drawing on?

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No. Verse 45 is referring to the Jew who walks with God. The Father based His election upon His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1-2) that suggests the drawing is done in a similar way.

SPF said:

This seems problematic as Jesus is addressing Jews here were grumbling and questioning His authority. They don’t sound like Jews who were accepting Jesus at all.

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Jesus refers to the Jews (OT Saints) who accepted Him in verse 45. Those who learn of the Father obviously walk with God the Father whereby He will draw them to Jesus. The Jews in whom Jesus was saying this to could also learn of the Father, too. They can keep His commandments and know God. Then they would be drawn by the Father to Jesus because they helped to start and build a relationship with God. While Cornelius is a Gentile, Cornelius is a prime example of this taking place.

SPF said:

This seems problematic as Jesus is addressing Jews here were grumbling and questioning His authority. They don’t sound like Jews who were accepting Jesus at all.

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We don’t know what these Jews will do later or what Jews will read these Scriptures at a later time and thus change to learn of the Father as per verse 45 (i.e. a walk with God) before being drawn by the Father towards Jesus (the Messiah) (verse 44). This of course is during the time period before the cross and or shortly around the start of the early church. John 6:44-45 does not apply today. Just as the instructions to build the Ark were for Noah’s time. For there are no more Jews alive under the OT system (or transitioning out of the OT) who are still learning of the Father.

Bible Highlighter said:

It means that only the OT Saints who walked with God can come to Jesus and are drawn by the Father to Jesus.

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So why did they have to be drawn by the Father? Why couldn’t they out of their own free will believe in Christ?

SPF said:

So why did they have to be drawn by the Father?

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I don’t know. Ask God. I did not write His Word.

You said:

Why couldn’t they out of their own free will believe in Christ?

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You are asking a false loaded question that is not based on the truth. You are erroneously reading anti-free will into John 6:44-45. God draws those to Jesus (verse 44) who learned of the Father out of their own free will (verse 45) because there are many free will statements given to the Jews in the OT Scriptures.

Isaiah 34:16 KJB says,
“Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB says,
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

Joshua 24:15 KJB says,
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Jeremiah 29:13 KJB says,
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”

Again, you may ignore or change Scriptures like these, but they refute the idea that folks are forced against their will to believe in Jesus. You are taking the Bible out of context to fit a Calvinistic belief. The word “draws” does not mean drag or forced to believe contrary to one’s own will. Why would God give us commands if this was the case? Why would God get angry at the wicked every day if it is God who ultimately changes their will and He forces them to believe?

SPF said:

So why did they have to be drawn by the Father? Why couldn’t they out of their own free will believe in Christ?

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Why would Jesus say the following if it is God who is the One who forces a person to believe?

John 6:27 KJV
“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.”

It is nonsense in the Calvinistic universe to tell unregenerate men to labor for the meat the endures to everlasting life if they do not believe (See John 6:36). The words of Jesus here would be futile and vain in trying to reach them.

Bible Highlighter said:

I don’t know. Ask God. I did not write His Word.

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And yet, that’s really the key question, and you seem to apparently shrug it off as meaningless. Yet it’s incredibly important.

Bible Highlighter said:

God draws those to Jesus (verse 44) who learned of the Father out of their own free will (verse 45)

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That may very well be so, yet it appears that until the father does draw them that they won’t come to Christ. And that’s what’s really interesting to me. Context is Jews, got it. Jews in question that the Father draws are true seeking Jews, got it.

Yet, despite all that, these God following Jews still need the Father to draw them FIRST, before they can come to Christ. Why? Why can’t they come to Christ out of their own free will? That, is what I find interesting.

Bible Highlighter said:

Scriptures like these, but they refute the idea that folks are forced against their will to believe in Jesus.

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I personally have never thought that folks are forced against their will to believe Jesus.

Bible Highlighter said:

You are taking the Bible out of context to fit a Calvinistic belief.

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Im just asking questions. I don’t have answers like you seem to have (ones that don’t seem to fit the text unfortunately.

SPF said:

And yet, that’s really the key question, and you seem to apparently shrug it off as meaningless. Yet it’s incredibly important.

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No. I just cannot give you the answer to what I do not know. I am not going to make stuff up to satisfy you. If you believe you have an answer, then by all means, please share with Scripture; Or do you believe you should hold all the cards?

You said:

That may very well be so, yet it appears that until the father does draw them that they won’t come to Christ. And that’s what’s really interesting to me. Context is Jews, got it. Jews in question that the Father draws are true seeking Jews, got it.

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No. They are not seeking Jews. They are Jews who have heard and learned of the Father (John 6:45), which means they had a relationship with God the Father in the Old Covenant. So this drawing is not something that is some kind of forced thing that overrides an unbeliever's will so as to believe. That is not what it is saying. Not even close. It's referring to Jews who had a relationship with God because they heard and learned of the Father (See again John 6:45 that you keep ignoring).

You said:

Yet, despite all that, these God following Jews still need the Father to draw them FIRST, before they can come to Christ. Why? Why can’t they come to Christ out of their own free will? That, is what I find interesting.

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You still keep ignoring what John 6:45 says. It says they heard and learned of the Father (Which implies a relationship with God). You now say they are seeking Jews (Which means they do not have God yet in their life). Do unbelievers or the unregenerate generally hear and learn by God the Father? Surely not. Only those who have a relationship with God can truly hear and learn of the Father.

You said:

I personally have never thought that folks are forced against their will to believe Jesus.

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Then how do you explain your Calvinistic interpretation on John 6:44 as being different than folks who are forced against their will to believe in Jesus? You talked about the word “drawing” as being dragged and you definitely did not agree with my normal and plain reading on the Scriptures here. You also said “Why can’t they come to Christ out of their own free will?” (Which implies that God the Father forces some to come to Jesus). So please explain what you mean and how that does not align with the standard Calvinist interpretation on this verse.

You said:

Im just asking questions.

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No offense, but your questions are loaded. Your questions make false assumptions on things that the Bible does not say. Thus, they are questions that do not exist in light of God' Word. It would be like asking which cats do you like better? The green cats that breathe fire or the purple cats that fly? Such questions are ridiculous because there are no such creatures in existence. You imply there is no free will in this drawing and yet John 6 makes no mention of this and or even implies this.

You said:

I don’t have answers like you seem to have

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Yet, I admitted when I did not know one of your questions. So I don't have all the answers. We look through a glass darkly.

You said:

(ones that don’t seem to fit the text unfortunately.

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Prove it with the Bible. I answered your questions to the best of my ability. Now, it is your turn. I asked you before to give a word for word commentary on John 6:45. What do you think this verse is saying? I believe this verse demolishes your wrong thinking on John 6:44. The question is: Will you explain John 6:45 (word for word)?

Jesus says in John 6:27 to labor for the meat that endures to everlasting life. Yet, these folks did not believe (John 6:36). If they needed a forced regeneration from God so as to come to Jesus in order to believe then why is Jesus even bothering with trying to reach them with words on telling them to labor for the meat that endures to everlasting life? It makes no sense. This implies man is responsible for believing. For the Scriptures say that without faith, it is impossible to please God. Yet, many in the Calvinistic camp say that God is the One who forces (or makes possible) man to believe. According to the Calvinist, the unbeliever cannot come to God without a regeneration and or drawing, etc.; Yet John 6:44 is in context to Jews who heard and learned of the Father (John 6:45). Heard and learned of the Father implies a relationship. For example: If you learn from your school teacher, this implies you know them to some degree in order to learn from them. To hear implies that one is obeying. For example: The kids heard the instructions of their dad and came home before dark as he said. So only those who hear and learn of God are drawn (not dragged) in coming to Jesus.

John 6:45 says, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

In other words: Every man (the Jew) who has HEARD (listened to God through obeying God's commands) and has learned of the Father (loving others - Matthew 5:43-48) comes unto me (i.e. Jesus).

John 6:45 is clear in that this is not in reference to unbelieving Jews or unbelieving Gentiles. This is in reference to those Jews who had a relationship with God because they heard and learned of the Father. THESE are the ones who are drawn by the Father to come to Jesus. Not just anybody!

Side Note:

As for the phrase, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.”: This is in reference to Isaiah 54:13-14 that says:

“And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.” (Isaiah 54:13-14).

Meaning, this is in reference to God's children who are established in righteousness (i.e. in seeking God's grace, and in living holy unto the Lord). So John 6:45 is in reference to Jews who have a relationship with God the Father. This is the context of John 6:44. So this is not some kind of forced thing going on (i.e. anti-free will) involving those who do not believe when it says draw. John 6:44 is referring to how no Jew can come to Jesus without first hearing and learning from the Father beforehand (John 6:45).