Rapture vs. Second Coming

The Messiah"s second coming is in two parts. The first part, believers in the church age are raptured to meet The Messiah in the clouds. The Messiah and these raptured believers will tabernacle in the clouds during the 7 years of tribulation. Then The Messiah at the end of the tribulation, will come out of the clouds, back to fight for Israel as the whole earth sees this return.

friend of said:

Yes it does. It explicitly states that we will be kept from the hour of trial. If we are faithful.

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Why do you always ASSUME that you are the church of Philadelphia? That's pride is what it is.
The Church of Smyrna also had no rebuking words from Jesus, only encouragement, and they were martyred for their faith.

IF the letters are meant to be for not just the physical churches in the 1st century, but are intended for us as anything other than general wisdom about how we're supposed to live our lives, then what it means is that there are a lot of Christians that need to make changes to their walk because we're not perfect, and that some of us, while being faithful, will be martyred, and others who are faithful, will be protected, not necessarily raptured, unless you can make a convincing argument of Jesus coming in the clouds more than one time for multiple raptures, the rapture actually shown in revelation takes place after the tribulations but before the wrath of God. Jesus comes in the clouds in Revelation 6:12-17, and also in Revelation 14:14-20 showing this, but I see it as 2 versions of the same events. In the first vision there are martyrs, then Jesus comes in the clouds, then the tribes on the earth are wailing saying that the wrath of the lamb has come, then there's a great multitude of people who came out of Great Tribulations in heaven (that is a rapture, unless there's more than 1 rapture and one that's not even shown in scripture, that's it). In the second vision, there's more detail about what kinds of Tribulations the saints go through, the mark of the beast, execution for not worshiping the beast, then Jesus comes in the clouds, and the first harvesting of the earth is done by Jesus (important distinction), and that harvest is not put through the wrath of God (it's gathered up into the "barn" or heaven), the second harvest is done by an angel, and that is put through the wrath of God. Then next chapter, saints in heaven.
What I think happens and I do believe that the 7 letters to churches are end times instructions, is that most Christians will need serious repentence and changing, but of those faithful, some will be martyred, and others will be provided for by God as they flee into the wilderness and live off the grid until Jesus comes for them.
God does intend for there to be martyrs, but He also intends for there to be survivors, that is the reason why the great tribulations are cut short, so that there can be survivors at the time of the rapture.
Matthew 24:22

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

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Note that in both visions, after Jesus is in the clouds, in Revelation 6, and in Revelation 14...
there's really no more mention of saints on earth. There's saints in heaven in Revelation 7, and there's saints in heaven in Revelation 15. But on the earth? Only the unsaved. The saints come back with Jesus to Armageddon, and then rule in the Millennial Kingdom... But during the vials and destruction of Babylon? No saints on earth. During the trumpets? Only the two witnesses and that may be out of Chronological order, they may have died before Jesus came in the clouds but I'm not sure.

friend of said:

When Noah was protected in the ark he was taken out of the world. The flood is a precursor to being taken out of the way of God's wrath.

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Key words
taken out of the way of God's wrath.
When does God's wrath happen?
Revelation 6:17
Revelation 14:19
Did God's wrath start happening during the seals?
Not according to these witnesses
Revelation 6:9-10

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

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We are promised to be spared from the wrath of God. 100% you are right. Isaiah 26:19-21, 1 Thessalonians 5:9
But we're not promised to be spared of tribulation (that is persecution from other people)

friend of said:

That's happening now. But it is not THE Tribulation

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Yeah and, the great tribulations is basically that same thing but intensified and organized. It's not the wrath of God.
The problem is it's never said in the bible to be a "7 year tribulation", the time given is a time, times, and half a time (3.5 years), or 42 months (also 3.5 years) 1290 days (also 3.5 years). The first half of the 70th week are really not the tribulations.
Jesus said the "Great Tribulations" only come after the abomination of Desolation, so the 3.5 year mark in the 70th week (Matthew 24:15-21). That leaves a maximum of 3.5 years of Great Tribulations, and they are cut short by Jesus (Matthew 24:22). The wrath of God lasts at LEAST 5 months (5th trumpet is 5 months long) and I think the 6th trumpet is a year a month, a day, and an hour long (Revelation 9:15). If that's the case, we're looking at like 2 years of the wrath of God, meaning there's about a year and a half of "Great Tribulations", rather than 3.5 years. It's still a long time and if you look at Operation Reinhard in WWII, it lasted for about 2 years and killed millions of Jews. That's kind of the example to look at for what the Great Tribulations are like, but even worse because of the surveillance state.
Pretribbers however see the entire 70th week as "the Great Tribulation" or "the 7 year tribulation", and see all of it as the wrath of God. Even though in the bible itself, we see that the Great Tribulation only starts halfway through the week, and is NOT the wrath of God, but is cut short BY the wrath of God.

The rapture of the body of Christ is a mystery that was first revealed thru the apostle Paul (1 cor 15:51 onwards)

So you naturally won’t find that information before him

Guojing said:

The rapture of the body of Christ is a mystery that was first revealed thru the apostle Paul (1 cor 15:51 onwards)

So you naturally won’t find that information before him

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The explanation of it is revealed by Paul but the concept is in Isaiah and in the gospels.
In fact, the thing is, none of us should have taken anything Paul said as truth if it cannot be found elsewhere in the bible.

Acts 17:10-11

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

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always test a so called Apostle by the Word of God. If what they say lines up with scripture, then it is truth. If what they say contradicts scripture, then it is false. So if Paul was preaching something found nowhere else in the bible? We should have been very suspicious of what he taught... but because we CAN find the things he talks about in scripture, we can trust that Paul was an apostle and spoke the truth.
Isaiah 26:19-21 is the earliest reference to the end times rapture that I know of. It's a resurrection, and hiding the elect in a place of safety (that we now know is heaven) during the wrath of God. Just like 1 Thessalonians 4.

Jamdoc said:

The explanation of it is revealed by Paul but the concept is in Isaiah and in the gospels.
In fact, the thing is, none of us should have taken anything Paul said as truth if it cannot be found elsewhere in the bible.

Acts 17:10-11

always test a so called Apostle by the Word of God. If what they say lines up with scripture, then it is truth. If what they say contradicts scripture, then it is false. So if Paul was preaching something found nowhere else in the bible? We should have been very suspicious of what he taught... but because we CAN find the things he talks about in scripture, we can trust that Paul was an apostle and spoke the truth.
Isaiah 26:19-21 is the earliest reference to the end times rapture that I know of. It's a resurrection, and hiding the elect in a place of safety (that we now know is heaven) during the wrath of God. Just like 1 Thessalonians 4.

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when Paul said it was a mystery hidden in God, I take what he said literally.

Guojing said:

when Paul said it was a mystery hidden in God, I take what he said literally.

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It's not a totally new thing. The fact that it is in scripture prior to Paul testifies of its truth. What Paul did was give meaning to something that scripture touched, but was unclear about. People probably didn't think much on the verses from Isaiah, until Paul explained the concept, then when you go back in the scripture, you'll notice that it is in previous scripture but you didn't see it before.
So it's a mystery in that before Paul, people did not understand what those verses meant. After Paul clears it up, it's easier to see. Jesus showed that the resurrection was a concept going as far back as Exodus, to show the Sadducees who only believed that the Torah was inspired and did not believe in the resurrection, that they were wrong, and even Moses wrote about life after death. It's like how do you trust Isaiah as a prophet? Because what he gave more detail on, was already in scripture as far back as Genesis.
The entire bible is based on a concept of 2 witnesses establish the truth. Any doctrine, should have at least 2 witnesses
If you have a doctrine that you get from a single passage of the bible that is found nowhere else in the bible, you may want to rethink that doctrine, your interpretation of the verse you get the doctrine from, might be wrong.
So, why should you believe Paul? Because Paul is backed up by Isaiah, Daniel, and Jesus in the gospels, and later the Apostle John. Multiple witnesses can attest to what Paul said, as being true.

Jamdoc said:

It's not a totally new thing. The fact that it is in scripture prior to Paul testifies of its truth. What Paul did was give meaning to something that scripture touched, but was unclear about. People probably didn't think much on the verses from Isaiah, until Paul explained the concept, then when you go back in the scripture, you'll notice that it is in previous scripture but you didn't see it before.
So it's a mystery in that before Paul, people did not understand what those verses meant. After Paul clears it up, it's easier to see. Jesus showed that the resurrection was a concept going as far back as Exodus, to show the Sadducees who only believed that the Torah was inspired and did not believe in the resurrection, that they were wrong, and even Moses wrote about life after death. It's like how do you trust Isaiah as a prophet? Because what he gave more detail on, was already in scripture as far back as Genesis.
The entire bible is based on a concept of 2 witnesses establish the truth. Any doctrine, should have at least 2 witnesses
If you have a doctrine that you get from a single passage of the bible that is found nowhere else in the bible, you may want to rethink that doctrine, your interpretation of the verse you get the doctrine from, might be wrong.
So, why should you believe Paul? Because Paul is backed up by Isaiah, Daniel, and Jesus in the gospels, and later the Apostle John. Multiple witnesses can attest to what Paul said, as being true.

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When you are talking 2 or more scripture passages, they can be found in Paul's epistles. The rapture is described in 1 Thess, as well as 1 Cor 15.

Devin Hammond said:

Jesus returns once at the end of the age to raise the dead and judge the nations.

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You speak as though there is only 1 resurrection.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This scripture refutes this and puts a thousand years followed by a rebellion between the the two.

friend of said:

Yes it does. It explicitly states that we will be kept from the hour of trial. If we are faithful.

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Do you mean only Christians who are faithful will be raptured?

Devin Hammond said:

None of those verses states that the judgement takes place in heaven.

Actually Matthew 25:31-46 says that the judgement occurs at the second coming when Jesus returns to earth.

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He don't stay on the earth .... all the saved meet Him in the air.

His reward is with Him .... Judgement has to take place before He comes ... where is He? He's in heaven. When He returns the 1st resurrection happens ..... how would He know who will be resurrected and who will not if judgement hasn't already been made (saved vs. the lost) upon His return? The 1st resurrection is of the saved.

The REWARD is eternal life for the saved.

1st Peter 4:17

New King James Version
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

eleos1954 said:

Everything on earth is destroyed when He returns ....

Most certainly does ... in several places


Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

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True -

2 Thess 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Only two groups there.

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
...
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

--========================Resulting in "desolate Earth" =============

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Zeph 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people willbe like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack

friend of said:

When Noah was protected in the ark he was taken out of the world. The flood is a precursor to being taken out of the way of God's wrath.

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The ocean has always been considered part of Earth in the Bible - starting in Genesis 1.

Guojing said:

When you are talking 2 or more scripture passages, they can be found in Paul's epistles. The rapture is described in 1 Thess, as well as 1 Cor 15.

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agreed... 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matthew 24, 1 Cor 15, 2Thess 2 -- all describe the rapture at the 2nd coming of Christ as predicted by Christ in John 14 "I will come again" (second coming) "and receive yo to myself" (Rapture at the second coming " that where I am there you may be also" -- for it is when Christ takes the saints to His Father's house... in heaven.

Daniel 7 shows that the judgment that happens before the 2nd coming - happens in heaven.

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.
.. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One,

Devin Hammond said:

Nope. That passage never states that the judgement is “IN HEAVEN” .

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yep it does - because as Rev 21 reminds us - God's throne is not on Earth until after the 1000 years and in Dan 7 the wicked torment the righteous the entire time the judgment is going on - until it is concluded.

Psalm 11:4
The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven;

1 Kings 22:19
Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left.

friend of said:

You do realize this world is about to get a whole lot worse, don't you? It's going to get so bad that it will take God Himself coming back to set things right.

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WHY WOULD ANY CHRISTAIN BELIEVE IN, AND EVEN WORK FOR, THE DEFEAT OF THE GOSPEL IN THE GOSPEL AGE?

Thankfully our biblical forefathers didn't share your defeatist worldview.

We are to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

What's being put forth in your post is an eschatology of defeatism concerning the role of the Church and its citizens in our communities and nations today.

Anytime fearful statements and despair are being expressed by folks here about the world and their daily lives shows us that their doctrine that fuels such a "defeat mentality" is not based on FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE.

Compare Joshua to the other spies who were afraid and gave a bad report about the land. Today's defeatists are the spies who always fearfully say "there are giants in the land!" I prefer to be counted among the JOSHUAS who say "THE LAND IS OURS! LET'S TAKE IT. God has given the land to US!"

friend of said:

I found this interesting and helpful. Below are distinctions between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ. The first same number will denote what happens at the Rapture. The second same number will denote what happens at the Second Coming.

1 Rapture Translation of all believers to incorruptible body
1 Second Coming No translation at all
2 Translated saints go to heaven
2 Translated saints return to earth
3 Earth not judged
3 Earth judged and righteousness established
4 Imminent, any-moment, signless
4 Follows definite predicted signs including tribulation
5 Not in Old Testament
5 Predicted often in Old Testament
6 Believers only
6 Affects all men and women
7 Before the day of wrath
7 Concludes the day of wrath
8 No reference to Satan
8 Satan bound
9 Christ comes for His own
9 Christ comes with His own
10 Christ comes in the air
10 Christ comes to earth
11 Christ claims His bride
11 Christ comes with His bride
12 Only His own see Him
12 Every eye shall see Him
13 Tribulation begins
13 Millennial Kingdom begins

Blessings,

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Though most on this site would disagree, this is pretty much right on!