Where do You Draw the Line?

Neogaia777 · Nov 27, 2020

The OC law covenant was not a law of sin and death by it's nature, but only in our assumptions about how to fulfill it, and that's what then made it a law of sin and death to us, etc...

The NC shows us a "new and better way", etc, and is the only real true way to do it, which is what I am trying to say or describe in a little bit more detail here in some of the posts I just now posted on here, etc...

The laws are actually the same, and go back to the beginning, etc, but the only way to truly fulfill or ever keep them truly, is what I am describing, or am trying to be describing, here, etc...

God Bless!

Soyeong · Nov 27, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
I see this quite differently.

Then by all means, please explain why see things differently.

Why do you think Paul in Galatians admonished the believers who had slid back under the Law and come into bondage?

God did not save the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, but rather it is for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1) and God's law is a law of freedom (Psalms 119:45), while it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage (John 8:31-36). God's law is His instructions for how to live as those who have been freed from bondage, not to put us into bondage. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin.

The view that someone has of the law matches the view that they have of the Lawgiver. For example, God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny that God is trustworthy. Likewise, a law that is holy, righteous, and good can only come from a God who is holy, righteousness, and good (Romans 7:12). The Psalms express extremely high praise for the Mosaic Law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, which certainly matched his view of the Lawgiver, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those...who delight in the law of the Lord and who mediate on it day and night. We can't believe in the truth of these words while not allowing them to shape our view of God's law, so anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying God's law is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture, such as viewing it as bondage. If someone has such a poor view of the law that they consider it to be bondage, then they must have an equally poor view of the Lawgiver for giving it.

Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to obey God's law as if there were something negative about obeying God, but rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is what he considered to be bondage. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and he directly contrasted works of the law with God's law.

Neogaia777 · Nov 27, 2020

This is especially hard for very strong willed people, like many of us just are naturally on here...

The whole idea seems preposterous, etc, an oxymoron, etc, a contradiction, etc, but I 100% guarantee you it is "the way", etc, and is a way we all must learn in order to truly succeed, or truly be truly successful with anything of God's, or that is God's, etc...

Or I guess we can all just continue being exceeding sinful all of the rest of our lives, etc...? Cause that's the only "other alternative" otherwise, etc...

And we are all "exceedingly sinful" on here, no matter how much we might pretend, or might actually deceive ourselves into thinking and/or believing that we are "not at all not", etc...

And that is only because many of us on here have some of the very strongest "self-wills" of anyone, etc...

And that can sometimes make us more sinful than anyone, etc...

Oh, but if we can lay that will down, and truly lay all of it truly down, etc, I also think we can also be more fully and truly be used by God "more than anyone" also, etc...

If we can truly, truly lay that all down, etc, and I mean all of it down, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

NBB · Nov 27, 2020

Paul had some things to say to the people who wanted christians to do the whole law.

HIM · Nov 27, 2020

HARK! said:
They are two different things; but they work together.

Romans 16:26

Authorized (King James) Version

26 but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

So where do you draw the line?

We are dead nevertheless we live, yet NOT us but Christ liveth in us and the life we now live in the flesh we live by the FAITH OF SON OF GOD who gave HimSelf for us. FOR we that have been baptized INTO Christ have put on Christ. Christ IN us the Hope of glory.

So Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (the word, to hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul) down from above) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (the word, to hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul) again from the dead.)

But what saith it? The word Christ (the word, to hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart (that thou mayest do it): that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

(Gal 2:20; 3:27: Rom 10:6-8; Deut 30:10-14)

Are we the Temple of the most high God? Have we been clothed with Christ and are we not all one in Christ; no male or female, bondman or free, Jew or Gentile? Is He not our High Priest and we all Priests through Him over the Temple we reside and the courtyards in which we have been placed to minister?

HIM · Nov 27, 2020

Soyeong said:
Faith and obedience are like looking at the front and the side of the same object. .

Amen see post #25

HARK! · Nov 27, 2020

Jaxxi said:
Ummm maybe because we shouldn't steal, lie, commit murder. Do I really need to explain?

And Jesus said unto him, “Why callest thou Me good? None is good save One, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery.’ ‘Do not kill.’ ‘Do not steal.’ ‘Do not bear false witness.’ ‘Honor thy father and thy mother.’”

21 And he said, “All these have I kept from my youth up.”

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, He said unto him, “Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven; and come, follow Me.” Luke 18:19-22

This tells me we are to keep the Commandments.

Yahshua also said this:

(CLV) Mt 24:12
And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling.
(CLV) Mt 24:13
Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved.

Do you draw the line between these words, and the words that you quoted?

HARK! · Nov 27, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Fundamentally, Christians need to be led by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will never speak contrary to God's will and character. His character is revealed in the Bible but God's will for the individual is not necessarily clear.

I agree. That is why I understand that it is important to test the spirits.

(CLV) 1Jn 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are of God, for many false prophets have come out into the world.

I test them with scripture.

HARK! · Nov 27, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
The standards have not changed and are not any different, morally anyway, and if anything the bar has been raised even higher, but the real truth only comes when we realize we don't fully live up to it or those and probably never will, this side of the grave anyway, etc, and it is what you do or how you proceed afterwards or after that, etc, that is of the most paramount importance to God, etc...

Do we just give up, no, but there are certain instructions in the Bible as to what we should do and how we should proceed afterwards, etc...

But if you are trying to these things in your own will and strength only, you are sure to fail, etc, and may even be deceiving yourself and your own mind, and maybe even so much so, and maybe even to the whole entire point that you don't even see it, and never even ever begin or start under the NC of even beginning to be getting the entire point of the NC, etc...

That we are not under law but are under grace, but it is not license to sin, nor a reason to give up at all completely, etc, but it most certainly is "a whole new way" as to how to proceed/fulfill, etc, or try to fulfill, etc, and if you miss that, etc, then you are not even yet under the NC yet, and have missed the point (of the NC of grace) entirely, etc...

God Bless!

How do we integrate that with:

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Neogaia777 · Nov 27, 2020

HARK! said:
How do we integrate that with:

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

I guess you'd integrate that with however you interpret (it), etc...

Cause the way I interpret it, I don't see the problem, etc...?

Care to explain more specifically more what you mean more specifically maybe, etc...?

Or how this verse has to do specifically with what I said or am saying specifically maybe, etc...?

Cause I'm not seeing the connection, etc...?

Or how this verse has to do with what I'm saying, etc...?

Again, care to explain maybe...?

God Bless!

Noxot · Nov 27, 2020

I doubt people understand the law very well. I am happy that you're not stoning people to death for not keeping the Sabbath though.

Neogaia777 · Nov 27, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
I guess you'd integrate that with however you interpret (it), etc...

Cause the way I interpret it, I don't see the problem, etc...?

Care to explain more specifically more what you mean more specifically maybe, etc...?

Or how this verse has to do specifically with what I said or am saying specifically maybe, etc...?

Cause I'm not seeing the connection, etc...?

Or how this verse has to do with what I'm saying, etc...?

Again, care to explain maybe...?

God Bless!

@HARK!

Cause I don't think I ever specifically mentioned sins or sinning...?

But if you really want to direct the conversation to that, then ask me a specific question specifically and/or then let me know, K...?

Because I'm not going to sit here and try to "guess at your specific questions specifically", etc, OK...

So your going to do that, etc, then your going to have to ask a more direct question more directly and more specifically, etc, K...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Nov 27, 2020

HARK! said:
How do we integrate that with:

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Or maybe I should ask you how you "integrate" this (below) with anything either you, or I, or with what we, or any single one of us, believes, etc...?

Matthew 5:48- "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

And leave you to "guess" at what I "might be asking", etc...?

God Bless!

HARK! · Nov 27, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
@HARK!

Cause I don't think I ever specifically mentioned sins or sinning...?

But if you really want to direct the conversation to that, then ask me a specific question specifically and/or then let me know, K...?

Because I'm not going to sit here and try to "guess at your specific questions specifically", etc, OK...

So your going to do that, etc, then your going to have to ask a more direct question more directly and more specifically, etc, K...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:
But if you are trying to these things in your own will and strength only, you are sure to fail

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

How can we sin voluntarily if it is not of our own will. Inversely, how can we live in obedience; if it is not voluntarily?

Neogaia777 said:
That we are not under law but are under grace, but it is not license to sin, nor a reason to give up at all completely

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

If we sin voluntarily, after knowing the truth; are we under grace and the blessings of the law; or are we under the curses of the law?

HARK! · Nov 27, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
Or maybe I should ask you how you "integrate" this (below) with anything either you, or I, or with what we, or any single one of us, believes, etc...?

Matthew 5:48- "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

And leave you to "guess" at what I "might be asking", etc...?

God Bless!

Here is what Paul said on the subject:

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

HARK! · Nov 27, 2020

Noxot said:
I doubt people understand the law very well. I am happy that you're not stoning people to death for not keeping the Sabbath though.

If we understand the law; we understand that stoning people outside of the jurisdiction of the Judges of YHWH's Court is unlawful.

Neogaia777 · Nov 27, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

How can we sin voluntarily if it is not of our own will. Inversely, how can we live in obedience; if it is not voluntarily?

If you fully are adopting God's will as your own truly, or He is making or has or is causing you to have His will be or truly become your own permanently, you will not be able to sin anymore at all, not even voluntarily, etc...

And I don't necessarily believe in true free will truly, etc...

HARK! said:
(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

If we sin voluntarily, after knowing the truth; are we under grace and the blessings of the law; or are we under the curses of the law?

I think it is impossible to sin voluntarily after fully knowing all of all the truth or all truths fully, etc, cause this "way" that I am speaking of in these posts would be only one of them, etc, and if you knew that, and then got to the point to where you knew all of them, etc, and all of them fully, etc, then it would be impossible to sin at all after that, etc, voluntarily or involuntarily, but especially voluntarily, etc...

How you "integrate" (interpret, etc) this verse (below) with anything either you, or I, or with what we, or any single one of us, believes, etc...?

Matthew 5:48- "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

God Bless!

HARK! · Nov 27, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
How you "integrate" (interpret, etc) this verse (below) with anything either you, or I, or with what we, or any single one of us, believes, etc...?

Matthew 5:48- "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

God Bless!

This was answered in post #35. Maybe you were typing when I posted it.

Neogaia777 · Nov 27, 2020

HARK! said:
Here is what Paul said on the subject:

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Becoming or being on your way to become blameless, etc, does not mean he was as yet perfect or perfectly blameless, etc...

And the exact letter of the law is not as strict as the law or set of rules and/or laws that were always from the beginning, etc (which we are commanded to obey now), as the OT law covenant, or the exact letter of that or those laws, or that OT law covenant, still permitted some sin, etc, and we are called to even "higher and much higher than that" under the NC, etc...

You also have define "blameless" also, etc... Like blameless how, or in what context, etc...? And is it the exact same as 100% absolute "sinlessness", etc...?

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Nov 27, 2020

HARK! said:
This was answered in post #35. Maybe you were typing when I posted it.

Do you mean the part about being "blameless", etc...?

Cause, again, I'm kind of having to guess at how or what you are asking, or exactly how you answered what I asked or said in response, etc...?

But if you do mean "blameless". then how is that any different from "sinlessness", etc...?

God Bless!

Where do You Draw the Line?

Where do you draw the line?

I belive that all of YHWH's instructions must be honored as they apply.

I belive that only those instructions that were quoted in the Gospels are applicable.

I belive that only those instructions that were quoted in the Gospels , plus the Ten Commandments.

I belive only those instructions which are quoted in the NT are applicable.

I belive only those instructions which are quoted in the NT, plus the Ten commandments.

I believe that we are saved by grace; and we can do whatever we want.

Other: explain

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