Where do You Draw the Line?

I believe obedience is in relation to the nature of God which is goodness/love and wisdom/truth. God is the highest law and he is infinite and he wishes to make me his Temple. Nothing of God disagrees with God but all humans have a capacity to know God. I will not remove a leaf from the Tree of Life and say that it is the whole Tree of Life even if the DNA of the tree is in the leaf. The scriptures called the law is only fulfilled as much as I am with God and it becomes something profane as much as Man Without God utilizes it.

Believing and obedience are two different things, it seems to me @HARK!

Jesus Christ came and preached at Jews, when it had to do with pharisees, and teachers of the law.

Hark, What are your thoughts on what Faith creates in a believer? When God writes the law on the hearts and minds of believers (Hebrews 10:16), what happens to them? Work of the faith is to believe on God, whom sent Jesus (John 6:29), and work is that of believing having faith and love by the spirit given. (Galatians 5:22)

And what do you mean by drawing the line?

HARK! said:

Where do you draw the line in obedience to YHWH?

These are some of Yahshua's words on the subject

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'
(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 24:12
And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling.
(CLV) Mt 24:13
Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved.

(CLV) Mt 13:41
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

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Ten commandments, Gospels, and NT.

HARK! said:

Why the Ten Commandments?

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Ummm maybe because we shouldn't steal, lie, commit murder. Do I really need to explain?

And Jesus said unto him, “Why callest thou Me good? None is good save One, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery.’ ‘Do not kill.’ ‘Do not steal.’ ‘Do not bear false witness.’ ‘Honor thy father and thy mother.’”

21 And he said, “All these have I kept from my youth up.”

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, He said unto him, “Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven; and come, follow Me.” Luke 18:19-22

This tells me we are to keep the Commandments.

HARK! said:

Where do you draw the line in obedience to YHWH?

These are some of Yahshua's words on the subject

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'
(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 24:12
And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling.
(CLV) Mt 24:13
Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved.

(CLV) Mt 13:41
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

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Fundamentally, Christians need to be led by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will never speak contrary to God's will and character. His character is revealed in the Bible but God's will for the individual is not necessarily clear.

For the Christian, there are two problems. Firstly, God speaks and the believer ignores Him. That is rebellion. Secondly, God says nothing and the believer does what he thinks is right. That is presumption.
Rebellion means that God's work is delayed. Presumption means that dead works that are worthless in the kingdom pile up.

An example of presumption is King David. He set out to build God a temple. A noble objective, surely. Yet God said no to David. Solomon built the temple instead.

A Christian can memorise the Bible, diligently keep every commandment and yet still be useless in God's service. Those who have learned in the school of the Spirit are more sensitive to God's leading. No one is infallible but it sure helps to know the right principles.

Many read the law and get different things out of it. For instance when I look at the four letter name of God I see the Trinity and Jesus Christ incarnate as man. That's why the hey repeats twice and it's the second letter of the name of him, because the Son of God is the second person of the trinity. yod is by the way the foundation for all other letters of the Hebrew alphabet, it is said to make all the other Letters by itself. it makes sense that the yod would represent Father since he gives birth to his son who is the logos.

we should be getting as much out of the law as we possibly can seeing that the Shekinah Glory dwells in it, but the Shekinah Glory dwells in all who love God.

So I try not to draw a line whatsoever but my capacity to understand God is limited. Now if you understand the law so much tell me what The third letter of the four letter name of God means because God's not telling me so I don't know.

The Law of the Spirit of life has set me free from the Law of sin and death.

HARK! said:

Where do you draw the line in obedience to YHWH?

These are some of Yahshua's words on the subject

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'
(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 24:12
And, because of the multiplication of lawlessness, the love of many shall be cooling.
(CLV) Mt 24:13
Yet he who endures to the consummation, he shall be saved.

(CLV) Mt 13:41
The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness,

Click to expand...

The standards have not changed and are not any different, morally anyway, and if anything the bar has been raised even higher, but the real truth only comes when we realize we don't fully live up to it or those and probably never will, this side of the grave anyway, etc, and it is what you do or how you proceed afterwards or after that, etc, that is of the most paramount importance to God, etc...

Do we just give up, no, but there are certain instructions in the Bible as to what we should do and how we should proceed afterwards, etc...

But if you are trying to do these things in your own will and strength only, you are sure to fail, etc, and may even be deceiving yourself and your own mind, and maybe even so much so, and maybe even to the whole entire point that you don't even see it, and never even ever begin or start under the NC of even beginning to be getting the entire point of the NC, etc...

That we are not under law but are under grace, but it is not license to sin, nor a reason to give up at all completely, etc, but it most certainly is "a whole new way" as to how to proceed/fulfill, etc, or try to fulfill, etc, and if you miss that, etc, then you are not even yet under the NC yet, and have missed the point (of the NC of grace) entirely, etc...

God Bless!

Agallagher said:

Believing and obedience are two different things, it seems to me @HARK!

Jesus Christ came and preached at Jews, when it had to do with pharisees, and teachers of the law.

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Faith and obedience are like looking at the front and the side of the same object. Obedience to any set of instructions that are for our own good is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to guide us in how to rightly live, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works. In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law by obeying it is putting our faith in the Lawgiver to rightly guide us.

Agallagher said:

Hark, What are your thoughts on what Faith creates in a believer? When God writes the law on the hearts and minds of believers (Hebrews 10:16), what happens to them? Work of the faith is to believe on God, whom sent Jesus (John 6:29), and work is that of believing having faith and love by the spirit given. (Galatians 5:22)

And what do you mean by drawing the line?

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The Son is the essence of being a chip off of the old block where He is has the same nature or character as the Father. The Son is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and is the radiance of god's glory and the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so he put the nature of God on display through his works in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is why he could say everything he did in John 14:6-11. So believe in who the Son is is to desire to be more like him through making his nature the model for how we live our lives and all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of his nature.

Neogaia777 said:

The standards have not changed and are not any different, morally anyway, and if anything the bar has been raised even higher, but the real truth only comes when we realize we don't fully live up to it or those and probably never will, this side of the grave anyway, etc, and it is what you do or how you proceed afterwards or after that, etc, that is of the most paramount importance to God, etc...

Do we just give up, no, but there are certain instructions in the Bible as to what we should do and how we should proceed afterwards, etc...

But if you are trying to these things in your own will and strength only, you are sure to fail, etc, and may even be deceiving yourself and your own mind, and maybe even so much so, and maybe even to the whole entire point that you don't even see it, and never even ever begin or start under the NC of even beginning to be getting the entire point of the NC, etc...

That we are not under law but are under grace, but it is not license to sin, nor a reason to give up at all completely, etc, but it most certainly is "a whole new way" as to how to proceed/fulfill, etc, or try to fulfill, etc, and if you miss that, etc, then you are not even yet under the NC yet, and have missed the point (of the NC of grace) entirely, etc...

God Bless!

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The danger is always in going to or towards leaning on yourself and your own strength/will in trying to do these thing on your own or in your own strength, etc, and also in possibly deceiving yourself and your own mind when you do, etc, cause it is so very slick and so subtle that you might not even notice it or ever even see it, etc, (for awhile anyway, etc)...

Cause your setting yourself up for a big fall whenever you do, etc, and many times, or sometimes, have to go completely back to square one, or go completely back to start again, and try all over again, etc... And I'm not talking about you in your own will and own strength trying either, especially trying to keep some rule of law or codes, etc, but only in learning on how to only be relying in and on, and only in God's will and strength working in and through you, out of you, etc, only, etc...

Until you get enough practice with it/this, to where it is not just you relying on you and your own strength, etc, anyway, until you get enough practice at this/that, and enough knowledge and experience with it, etc, and not going back that, etc, that maybe, just maybe, you don't have to always go completely back to start all of the time doing this, or in trying to do this, etc, but can actually make some actual progress maybe, etc, cause then maybe, maybe just then maybe, you may be actually starting to be getting somewhere actually, etc...

Cause if you could just learn how to not be trying to do it in your own will and strength, etc, you would keep all the rules and codes of law without even trying, etc, but only just by learning how to truly do this, and only this only, etc, and all of the time, etc, and not going back to your own will, ways, or strength, etc, cause if you could only just learn to do this, etc, keeping any set of rules or codes of law, would be easy, etc, cause you'd just automatically do them or fulfill them, just by doing or mastering this, etc...

God Bless!

Carl Emerson said:

The Law of the Spirit of life has set me free from the Law of sin and death.

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In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated Law of Moses with the Law of the Spirit by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. In Roman 8:3-4, Jesus set us free from sin so that we might be free to obey the Law of God and meet its righteous requirement. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of Moses, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God. After all, the Law of Moses was given by God and the Spirit is God, so again it is the Law of the Spirit.

Neogaia777 said:

The danger is always in going to or towards leaning on yourself and your own strength/will in trying to do these thing on your own or in your own strength, etc, and also in possibly deceiving yourself and your own mind when you do, etc, cause it is so very slick and so subtle that you might not even notice it or ever even see it, etc, (for awhile anyway, etc)...

Cause your setting yourself up for a big fall whenever you do, etc, and many times, or sometimes, have to go completely back to square one, or go completely back to start again, and try all over again, etc... And I'm not talking about you in your own will and own strength trying either, especially trying to keep some rule of law or codes, etc, but only in learning on how to only be relying in and on, and only in God's will and strength working in and through you, out of you, etc, only, etc...

Until you get enough practice with it/this, to where it is not just you relying on you and your own strength, etc, anyway, until you get enough practice at this/that, and enough knowledge and experience with it, etc, and not going back that, etc, that maybe, just maybe, you don't have to always go completely back to start all of the time doing this, or in trying to do this, etc, but can actually make some actual progress maybe, etc, cause then maybe, maybe just then maybe, you may be actually starting to be getting somewhere actually, etc...

Cause if you could just learn how to not be trying to do it in your own will and strength, etc, you would keep all the rules and codes of law without even trying, etc, but only just by learning how to truly do this, and only this only, etc, and all of the time, etc, and not going back to your own will, ways, or strength, etc, cause if you could only just learn to do this, etc, keeping any set of rules or codes of law, would be easy, etc, cause you'd just automatically do them or fulfill them, just by doing or mastering this, etc...

God Bless!

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The problem is it goes completely against our own will, and thinking, and pre-disposed nature, etc, which is what can make it seem so hard or impossible sometimes...

You win or succeed by not trying to win or succeed, and by just giving all of yourself, and I am talking about "all of yourself", etc, completely over to the sole control of God, or the Spirit, or Holy Spirit, etc...

Takes a lot of practice, etc, but it really is the one and only true way to ever truly succeed, etc...

Like I said if you could truly do it, and truly do it completely fully, and not ever go back, etc, then you wouldn't even be having to be trying to keep any written set of rules or laws or moral codes ever, cause it would just be part of your nature (your new nature) that would just be keeping them and/or fulfilling them naturally, etc, with absolutely no effort and without even trying on your own part, etc...

That is what it truly means to be walking in the Spirit or by the Spirit, etc, and is the NC, "new way", etc, that goes almost completely and directly against the and/or our "old way", etc, or old nature that we had/have before that, etc...

So it is not about mastering keeping a written down (even on hearts) rules of law or codes that we are "trying" "so hard to keep in our own strength", etc, but is fully about only learning how to give that all up fully to God, "all" of ourselves over to God only, and completely over to sole control of God the Holy Spirit only, etc...

And learning how to walk in that only, etc...

That is what we all need to learn to truly ever have or stand any kind of a chance of truly fulfilling the law fully or truly, etc...

There is no other way that works, or will ever work, etc...

All other ways are only deceiving yourself and your own mind, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

The standards have not changed and are not any different, morally anyway, and if anything the bar has been raised even higher, but the real truth only comes when we realize we don't fully live up to it or those and probably never will, this side of the grave anyway, etc, and it is what you do or how you proceed afterwards or after that, etc, that is of the most paramount importance to God, etc...

Do we just give up, no, but there are certain instructions in the Bible as to what we should do and how we should proceed afterwards, etc...

But if you are trying to these things in your own will and strength only, you are sure to fail, etc, and may even be deceiving yourself and your own mind, and maybe even so much so, and maybe even to the whole entire point that you don't even see it, and never even ever begin or start under the NC of even beginning to be getting the entire point of the NC, etc...

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Obedience to God's law has always been about putting our faith in God to rightly guide us in how we should live and has never been about depending on our own strength. God can be trusted to set us up for success, not to set us up for failure.

That we are not under law but are under grace, but it is not license to sin, nor a reason to give up at all completely, etc, but it most certainly is "a whole new way" as to how to proceed/fulfill, etc, or try to fulfill, etc, and if you miss that, etc, then you are not even yet under the NC yet, and have missed the point (of the NC of grace) entirely, etc...

God Bless!

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In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's law, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 7:25, Paul directly contrasted God's law with the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace doesn't mean that we have a license to sin and that means that we are still under God's law because sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what being under grace looks like.

Soyeong said:

Obedience to God's law has always been about putting our faith in God to rightly guide us in how we should live and has never been about depending on our own strength. God can be trusted to set us up for success, not to set us up for failure.



In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we aren't under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's law, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 7:25, Paul directly contrasted God's law with the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace doesn't mean that we have a license to sin and that means that we are still under God's law because sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what being under grace looks like.

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You are basically saying what I just said, just in so many words, etc, or just by or with using different words, etc...?

Or at least, that's the way I read it anyway...?

Only the law of sin and death is us trying to do things in our own will, efforts, or strength, which is just naturally diametrically opposed to the law of the Spirit, because it is the exact opposite of that...

The law of the Spirit is about fully yielding and fully submitting to that Spirit, etc, to the point that we don't we don't even have our own will anymore, if we are to do it perfectly, etc, which just will, by it's very nature, just automatically allow us to keep all of any of the "other laws", etc...

It is only when we try to do it ourselves, that sin comes into the picture always, etc...

Although it may not sometimes look like that always, etc...

Like I said, it goes against our current nature, and current will, and pre-disposed, past nature ways of thinking, etc, and can also be so very slick and deceptive also (doing or trying to do it in our own will/strength, etc) that we may not even realize we are doing it, etc, not for awhile anyway, etc, or not for awhile sometimes anyway, etc...

But that is where sin truly comes from, etc, when we are not doing it/this perfectly, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Soyeong said:

In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated Law of Moses with the Law of the Spirit by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. In Roman 8:3-4, Jesus set us free from sin so that we might be free to obey the Law of God and meet its righteous requirement. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of Moses, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God. After all, the Law of Moses was given by God and the Spirit is God, so again it is the Law of the Spirit.

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I see this quite differently.

Why do you think Paul in Galatians admonished the believers who slid back under the Law and come into bondage?