Day of The Lord - Day of Jesus' Future Return

nolidad · Nov 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
It is your predisposed bias that makes you turn one hour/time coming when all of the dead are raised into two hours/times that are coming when some of the dead are raised on 2 separate occasions.

Or more simply it is just what the bible says:

Rev. 20:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The bible clearly says 2 resurrections here!

Spiritual Jew said:
Once again, you are not accepting a passage as written. I show you that we are now priests of God and of His Christ and you brush it off and say Rev 1:5-6 is speaking of some other priests of God and of Christ. How convenient.

No it is you that is not accepting passages as written.

REv. 20:
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Have you been physically resurrected and serving as a priest for 1,000 years????? Has Jesus already physically returned?? The answer to both is no! So we are not the priests mentioned here.

Spiritual Jew said:
There is no pre-trib rapture. It is clearly post-trib and that's very easy to prove.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice that the elect are gathered from the earth and from heaven. Which is the same thing Paul taught here:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Actually they are talking about two separate events.

In MArk, the last phrase is a euphemism that means form every part of the world. Google it and see it is an idiom.

Paul is talking about the rapture and there is no mention of anyone from heaven.

Teh dead is their body and the living are body and soul.

The church has to be pretrib raptured. first it is the promise God made in Thess. and second off the church is in heaven before Jesus returns to earth so we can get married to Him.

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints

Spiritual Jew said:
The context in which the dead in Christ rise first is that those who are alive and remain are not going to be caught up to meet the Lord before them. The dead in Christ have to rise first and be changed and then they together with those who are alive and remain will meet the Lord in the air.

First thing you wrote on this post that follows the bible as written and not interpreted.

BABerean2 · Nov 26, 2020

nolidad said:
The church has to be pretrib raptured. first it is the promise God made in Thess. and second off the church is in heaven before Jesus returns to earth so we can get married to Him.

Now we know why you refuse to admit the fulfillment of the New Covenant, by ignoring Hebrews 8:6-13.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The history of your doctrine is found below.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

nolidad · Nov 26, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Now we know why you refuse to admit the fulfillment of the New Covenant, by ignoring Hebrews 8:6-13.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The history of your doctrine is found below.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

Well your list of supposed "experts" doesn't impress. We have dealt with all that a long time ago and your boat got sunk then.

And I am still waiting from you a simple answer you have refused to answer now in three different threads!

You say Jesus absolutely fulfilled the covenant as declared in Jer. 31:31-34. I told you you can win the argument by simply showing me when these events came to pass as declared by God through Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more

!. Now you have argued about the gospel going to Jews exclusively for 7 years before it went to gentiles. where is that n this new covenant?

2. Notice the words "will" and "shall" mentioned several times? That means these are things god WILL do ! Not might do or maybe do.

3. I don't see any time frame for Israel to have the covenant before it is revoked.

4. When did God place His laws in the inward parts of the nation of Israel, so that He became their god and they became His people?

5. When did we have to stop teachings jews to know the Lord for they all know Him from the least to the greatest?

Give us the history of teh fuflilment of these and you will have proven your cae. But until you do, all your spiritual game of twister where you show the history of teh RE-development of dispensational eschatology into the church (absent completely shortly after the church accepted augustines allegorical covenantal eschatology in toto).

Then you throw out verses that have nothing to do with teh fulfilment of the new covenant God said He will let me repeat WILL make with all Israel. I know you hoped you can buffalo me by hoping I was lousy at grammar by you citing Peter saying "let all the house of Israel know" but that failed badly as well for it is a nonsense corruption of grammar on your part!

So I await you showing me how Jesus fulfilled the terms of the covenant as declared by His Father in Jeremiah. Everything else you post that does not address that is just you creating rabbit trails to avoid answering this one basic question.

BABerean2 · Nov 26, 2020

nolidad said:
You say Jesus absolutely fulfilled the covenant as declared in Jer. 31:31-34. I told you you can win the argument by simply showing me when these events came to pass as declared by God through Jeremiah.

I have shown you Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18 on multiple occasions.
However, you continue to pretend these passages do not exist.

The fulfillment of the master teacher promised in Jeremiah 31:34 is found in 1 John 2:27.

We all understand it is not easy to admit the fact that the Two Peoples of God doctrine is a man-made doctrine which is less than 200 years old.

He fulfilled the New Covenant through His death.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Which translations leave the "from the earth" part out of Mark 13:27? I'm not aware of any that do. So, why do you try to claim that it's not supposed to be there?

Because you are being dishonest about that verse. There are no translations that leave the "from the ends of the earth" out of Mark 13:27. Do you understand that? So, why are you trying to say it shouldn't be there?

Just name one translation that leaves it out. Can you do that? I'm not aware of even one that does.

No, I don't. I've said many times that the first resurrection is Christ's resurrection itself and that happened at His first coming. We spiritually have part in His resurrection when we're born again/saved. You continue to not have a clue about what I believe for whatever reason. Don't try to criticize what I believe when you clearly don't even know what I believe.

Ok, I figured it out. Matthew 24:31 is the verse I mixed up with Mark 13:27.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Dude, stop slandering me or I will report you. I'll give you this one warning. I do not ignore the 1000 years, I do not say that the 1000 years doesn't exist and I don't scoff at the 1000 years. I interpret the timing of it differently than you do and I believe it's figurative rather than literal. Even though I believe it's figurative, I do believe it represents a real period of time, but I believe it began at Christ's first coming rather than at His second coming.

The symbolism does not match the symbolism of the church. Too many discrepancies. The church is not supposed to control the nations. Christ controls the nations. Only the OT had a first resurrection experience at the Cross. Yes the church is in Christ, but still in the carnal flesh. The symbolism of Revelation 20 is free from Adam's sinful nature. That is why John declares a first resurrection type for these people. Current Christianity is not free of the carnal sinful flesh. It needs to be crucified daily. How is this a symbolic match?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 26, 2020

nolidad said:
Or more simply it is just what the bible says:

The Bible says that one hour/time is coming when all of the dead will be raised (John 5:28-29). In contrast to that you say that there are two hours/times coming when some of the dead are raised on two separate occasions separated by 1000+ years. Where is the consistency in you supposedly taking the Bible for what it says?

Rev. 20:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The bible clearly says 2 resurrections here!

Yes, it does. When did I say otherwise? I, of course, never did. But which resurrection is the first resurrection? What does scripture say?

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection. Next in order is the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His coming. That can't be the first resurrection because, again, Christ's resurrection itself is the first resurrection.

We spiritually have part in His resurrection (Rev 20:6) and become priests of God and of Christ (Rev 1:5-6) when we're saved.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

No it is you that is not accepting passages as written.

REv. 20:
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Have you been physically resurrected and serving as a priest for 1,000 years????? Has Jesus already physically returned?? The answer to both is no! So we are not the priests mentioned here.

Scripture does not teach that you need to be physically resurrected in order to be a priest of God and Christ in His kingdom, as Revelation 1:5-6 clearly shows. So, why are you saying that it is required?

Actually they are talking about two separate events.

In MArk, the last phrase is a euphemism that means form every part of the world. Google it and see it is an idiom.

Paul is talking about the rapture and there is no mention of anyone from heaven.

Teh dead is their body and the living are body and soul.

So, who is Christ bringing with Him then when the rapture takes place?

1 Thess 4:14 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven right now? Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ would need to come with Him in order to unite with their changed bodies (1 Cor 15:50-54)?

The church has to be pretrib raptured. first it is the promise God made in Thess.

Where is there a promise of a pretrib rapture in Thessalonians?

and second off the church is in heaven before Jesus returns to earth so we can get married to Him.

The souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven before Jesus returns. Scripture never says they have their bodies yet until He returns.

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints

Where does this say that anyone has been changed and has their immortal bodies yet at this point? It doesn't. If you think verse 8 indicates that, then you need to read it more carefully. The reference to being "arrayed in fine linen, clean and white" symbolically represents "the righteousness of saints" and is not a reference to immortal bodies. The above is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ being ready to come with Him and unite with their changed, immortal bodies.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
Ok, I figured it out. Matthew 24:31 is the verse I mixed up with Mark 13:27.

No apology for arguing with me all that time as if I didn't know what I was talking about? Do you think this mix up on your part is an illustration of your tendency to have a lack of attention to detail?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
The symbolism does not match the symbolism of the church. Too many discrepancies. The church is not supposed to control the nations. Christ controls the nations. Only the OT had a first resurrection experience at the Cross. Yes the church is in Christ, but still in the carnal flesh. The symbolism of Revelation 20 is free from Adam's sinful nature. That is why John declares a first resurrection type for these people. Current Christianity is not free of the carnal sinful flesh. It needs to be crucified daily. How is this a symbolic match?

We will never agree on all of this, so what is the point of me continuing to respond to you? Especially considering that you misinterpret almost everything I say.

But, can you acknowledge that you were wrong to try to claim that I don't believe that the thousand years has a beginning and an end? Whether it's literal or figurative is irrelevant. Just because I see something as being non-literal doesn't mean I'm saying it doesn't refer to an actual period of time. It does. Just like Daniel's 70 weeks has a beginning and end but does not refer to 70 literal 7 day weeks.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
No apology for arguing with me all that time as if I didn't know what I was talking about? Do you think this mix up on your part is an illustration of your tendency to have a lack of attention to detail?

Or too much attention to detail.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
I do not accept an extension to the plan allowing sin to go on in the millennium. Revelation 10:5-7 settles sin once and for all time in the 7th Trumpet.

How do you explain the following passage then:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Is it not sin for these people to oppose "the camp of the saints"? Is their sinful behavior not the reason why fire comes down from heaven to kill them?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
Or too much attention to detail.

How can too much attention to detail result in you missing the obvious which is that I was referring to Mark 13:27? I mentioned Mark 13:27 specifically many times and yet you still thought I was referring to Matthew 24:31. That is definitely not a case of you having too much attention to detail. Those 2 verses are parallel verses, but it just so happens that Mark 13:27 has an added detail that Matthew didn't record in Matthew 24:31.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
We will never agree on all of this, so what is the point of me continuing to respond to you? Especially considering that you misinterpret almost everything I say.

But, can you acknowledge that you were wrong to try to claim that I don't believe that the thousand years has a beginning and an end? Whether it's literal or figurative is irrelevant. Just because I see something as being non-literal doesn't mean I'm saying it doesn't refer to an actual period of time. It does. Just like Daniel's 70 weeks has a beginning and end but does not refer to 70 literal 7 day weeks.

The Lord's Day starts at the Second Coming.

You ask if I can apologize. We argue over pointless points which I tried to get out of. The point is about the beginning of the Lord's Day. How can this be settled by avoidance and changing the topic to my posting style?

People claim I let people walk all over me. Is that true or not? When people start making demands, I just refuse them. It is pretty easy, cause they will keep at it, or stop. Do I attack people's opinions? I thought that is the only reason why people come on line to post. Every time I try to have a decent conversation, I get ambushed. Welcome to my world. I guess I just return the worse of posting instead of being a hypocrite and just say what people want to hear.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
The Lord's Day starts at the Second Coming.

You ask if I can apologize. We argue over pointless points which I tried to get out of. The point is about the beginning of the Lord's Day. How can this be settled by avoidance and changing the topic to my posting style?

People claim I let people walk all over me. Is that true or not? When people start making demands, I just refuse them. It is pretty easy, cause they will keep at it, or stop. Do I attack people's opinions? I thought that is the only reason why people come on line to post. Every time I try to have a decent conversation, I get ambushed. Welcome to my world. I guess I just return the worse of posting instead of being a hypocrite and just say what people want to hear.

I don't ever tell you something about your view that isn't true. You said I don't believe the thousand years has a beginning and an end even though I do believe that. You are constantly misrepresenting what I believe, but I don't do that to you. Why do you do it? Are you just unable to comprehend any doctrine besides your own or are you doing it on purpose?

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I don't ever tell you something about your view that isn't true. You said I don't believe the thousand years has a beginning and an end even though I do believe that. You are constantly misrepresenting what I believe, but I don't do that to you. Why do you do it? Are you just unable to comprehend any doctrine besides your own or are you doing it on purpose?

I am just trying to get an answer. I was pointing out that even if the claim is that, the Day of the Lord starts at the battle of Armageddon, it is still pre mill. If it starts at the first coming, the coming still happens pre mill. Even Jesus never claims complete fulfillment until the second coming. That is why many point to a resurrection until then. How can Revelation 20 happen at the first coming, when it seems Paul pushes off any resurrection until the second coming? Jesus never denied an earthly Kingdom. Even in the parables, God and the Son withhold an earthly presence until the "end". John puts humans into the millennium only after, what John calls a first resurrection type.

nolidad · Nov 27, 2020

BABerean2 said:
I have shown you Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18 on multiple occasions.
However, you continue to pretend these passages do not exist.

The fulfillment of the master teacher promised in Jeremiah 31:34 is found in 1 John 2:27.

We all understand it is not easy to admit the fact that the Two Peoples of God doctrine is a man-made doctrine which is less than 200 years old.

He fulfilled the New Covenant through His death.

Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

.

I have told you multiple times these exist and I also have told you multiple times that if jesus is the mediator of teh covenant, then the covenant is not fully enacted yet! One does not need a mediator if a covenant is fully in force!

So Jesus fulfilled the new covenant by His death. I am assuming you are using the standard definition of fulfill:

ful·fill
/fo͝olˈfil/
Learn to pronounce

verb

1.
bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).

Let me repost the covenant as declared by god HImself:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

So if we are to take your definition of the fulfilment to its logical conclusion, then every Jew since jesus death has been automatically saved, Gods law is written in every jewish heart and they all know the Lord from the least to the greatest!

that is funny. Because it was you who accused me of believing that jews didn't need to get saved by faith in christ!

But I will give you a chanvce to correct this.

Explain how jesus death fulfills the terms of the Covenant as written!

nolidad · Nov 27, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
The Bible says that one hour/time is coming when all of the dead will be raised (John 5:28-29). In contrast to that you say that there are two hours/times coming when some of the dead are raised on two separate occasions separated by 1000+ years. Where is the consistency in you supposedly taking the Bible for what it says?

Yes, it does. When did I say otherwise? I, of course, never did. But which resurrection is the first resurrection? What does scripture say?

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection. Next in order is the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His coming. That can't be the first resurrection because, again, Christ's resurrection itself is the first resurrection.

We spiritually have part in His resurrection (Rev 20:6) and become priests of God and of Christ (Rev 1:5-6) when we're saved.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Scripture does not teach that you need to be physically resurrected in order to be a priest of God and Christ in His kingdom, as Revelation 1:5-6 clearly shows. So, why are you saying that it is required?

So, who is Christ bringing with Him then when the rapture takes place?

1 Thess 4:14 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven right now? Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ would need to come with Him in order to unite with their changed bodies (1 Cor 15:50-54)?

Where is there a promise of a pretrib rapture in Thessalonians?

The souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven before Jesus returns. Scripture never says they have their bodies yet until He returns.

Where does this say that anyone has been changed and has their immortal bodies yet at this point? It doesn't. If you think verse 8 indicates that, then you need to read it more carefully. The reference to being "arrayed in fine linen, clean and white" symbolically represents "the righteousness of saints" and is not a reference to immortal bodies. The above is referring to the souls of the dead in Christ being ready to come with Him and unite with their changed, immortal bodies.

Yes there is a time coming when all the dead will rise. But Jesus didn't say all at once. We assume that!
and you need to read REv. 20 again!

If Jesus is the first resurrection, then the second resurrection which occurs 1,000 years after Jesus returns holds massive problems.

For it is the second resurrection and all the rest of the dead who are resurrected in that resurrection, the 2nd death has authority over them. IOW if jesus resurrection (which Jesus wasn't the first, ther was Lazarus, the widow womans and a few OT resurrections) is the first resurrection, then we are all lost!

So you believe that ethereal souls will reign with Christ? Sounds kind of JW to me.

BABerean2 · Nov 27, 2020

nolidad said:
So if we are to take your definition of the fulfilment to its logical conclusion, then every Jew since jesus death has been automatically saved, Gods law is written in every jewish heart and they all know the Lord from the least to the greatest!

that is funny. Because it was you who accused me of believing that jews didn't need to get saved by faith in christ!

Apparently, you have no idea who is a "Jew" based on the New Testament.
Why have you redefined what Paul said below?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Why have you redefined what Paul said below?

Rom 9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

You may think redefining scripture is "funny".
However, the rest of us do not.

.

Davy · Nov 27, 2020

Timtofly said:
Are you equating Lazarus in the parable with the brother of Mary and Martha?

I think they are.

Jesus called Lazarus back to prove several points. An incorruptible body can happen. The rich man's brothers still would not believe Jesus was the Messiah. But that is just my thoughts.

No Biblical support to think that the beggar Lazarus of Luke 16 was the sick Lazarus of John 11.

I do not see the GWT as being any part of a "world to come".

When Jesus returns, that will end this present world age, which is what God's consuming fire event will be about on that "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns. And then His "thousand years" reign on earth with His elect per Rev.20. The wicked will never see the new heavens and a new earth, which will be after the "lake of fire" event. This view of three world ages is from Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3 mainly.

It is the only place judgment is final and those souls are never resurrected bodily, that is only assumed. But I was taught no redemption or escape from the lake of fire when before the GWT. If they are given life, and they ask God to forgive them and not remove their name, why would they not come to life?

The abode of the wicked called hell is about Hades, not the "lake of fire". The "lake of fire" destruction after the 1,000 years is a one time event. Hades is to eventually go into the "lake of fire" after the "thousand years", along with death, per Rev.20. When Jesus said in John 5:28-29 that 'all in the graves' will hear His voice on that day of His coming, and there is also a "resurrection of damnation", that means the wicked dead are raised on the day of His return also. It means they will be in resurrection bodies of incorruption also. Their difference is their "this mortal" (soul) part will still be in a liable to perish condition, still subject to the "second death", which is the casting into the future "lake of fire" event.

Many brethren do not understand that the body of incorruption is simply an outward body image of the heavenly dimension. The soul is attached to it. Even Satan and his angels have that 'image of the heavenly'. So what is it that makes them subject to the "second death"? The condition of their soul. Thus the body of incorruption with soul is not automatically immortal, not even after flesh death. It can only... put on immortality through Faith on Jesus Christ. This is why Lord Jesus in Matthew 10:28 said to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul, but fear Him Who can destroy both body (spirit body) and soul at the future "lake of fire" (the Greek refers to Hinnom put for the lake of fire, not haides).

But for the most part coming to life to be thrown into the lake of fire is not really a "coming to life" experience. It ends up in Death any way.

Because many don't understand the resurrection when Jesus returns, and the change at the twinkling of an eye to a spiritual body, they don't understand that the concept of death changes for all on that day of Christ's return. There won't be some walking around in flesh bodies, while some are in resurrected spiritual bodies that can never die while others are in resurrected spiritual bodies that can still perish. All will be in the incorruptible body image type. The soul needs an outward body image to manifest. For this earth dimension it's a flesh body. For the heavenly dimension it's a spiritual body. Simple physics really, just dependent on which dimension one is in. And on the day of Christ's return, the heavenly dimension is going to be revealed right here on earth. That is how the wicked on earth will 'see' The Father sitting on His throne preparing to pour out His cup of wrath, per the 6th Seal description.

I do not accept our spirit is on earth or in us. It is the outer robe, outside of the body. If we had it we would be transfigured and shine like a star. See Revelation 21-22. I accept a dead spirit is a demon, that has been banished from God's presence. Dead, not because it sinned. Dead because a reprobate soul on earth removed all of God's glory and it is dark without any hope of being brought back to God. That is why a demon knows all about God, but cannot return to God. Is that reversible or sinning past a point of no return? The meaning of reprobate is one rejected by God. The GWT is the reunion of a dead soul to a dead spirit, demon.

Then you're on the old Jew's tradition about being literal dead in the ground waiting for the resurrection to a renewed flesh body, which idea is against what God's Word reveals, particularly 2 Corinthians 5, 1 Corinthians 15, and 2 Corinthians 12, and even against what Peter said about Jesus preaching to the "spirits in prison" per 1 Peter 3 & 4. The idea that all spirits mean demons is part of that old Jew's tradition. It's simply not true.

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Jesus didn't go preach The Gospel to demons in the pit prison. He preached to the dead who had died before His crucifixion. That was prophesied to occur with His first coming Ministry per Isaiah 42:7. That was what the resurrection of those on the day of His crucifixion showed. When our flesh body dies, we don't literally sleep somewhere in a casket. Our 'spirit' goes back to God Who gave it, like Eccl.12 says. And that "spirit" of Eccl.12 does not just mean some animating force of nature that all living things have, like some men think. We all have a spirit inside our flesh, for that is what is 'born again'.

So really I'm tired of this conversation with you, because it's obvious to me (if not to others), that there is a lot of Bible Scripture that you refuse to believe. And that because your mind is obviously wrapped up in carnal fleshy thinking, and you cannot understand the concept of our spirit with soul independent of flesh.

Davy · Nov 27, 2020

Timtofly said:
I do not accept an extension to the plan allowing sin to go on in the millennium. Revelation 10:5-7 settles sin once and for all time in the 7th Trumpet.

Then maybe you ought to write your 'own' Bible then? Because you can't get any greater sin in that time than those in the future Millennium that follow Satan to come up against the "camp of the saints" at the end of the thousand years to try and destroy God's people.

Rev 20:7-9
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

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