claninja
Well-Known Member
It seems to me you have the wrong understanding of the word 'water' in John 3:5. We are not born "of water and of the Spirit" when we are born of the Spirit. Let's take a look at this, properly:
Jesus clarified what He meant by "Unless you are born of water and of the Spirit" by saying immediately afterward, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
"Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5-6
John said,
"And I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water, that One said to me, Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon Him, He is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit." John 1:33
We are born of water when we are born of the womb. This is why Jesus clarified what He meant by immediately following His statement in John 3:5 with "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Physiologically the average human adult male is approximately 60-63% water, and the average adult female is approximately 52-55% water. The body water constitutes as much as 75% of the body weight of a newborn infant. Body water is the water content of the flesh that is contained in the tissues, the blood, the bones and elsewhere.
I disagree with the term "being born of water" as referring to the 1st natural birth because:
1.) There is no ancient hebrew term that refers to being "born of water" as the first natural birth from the mother's womb, nor is there any scriptural support that being "born of water" refers to natural birth.
2.) Verse 5 is a reiteration of verse 3. Therefore Born from above = born of water and spirit. Jesus never states "unless one is born of the flesh and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom".
John 3:5 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
3.) I would argue Jesus' reference of being born of water and spirit is a reference to Ezekiel, in which God's people were to be cleansed with water from unrighteousness, and His Spirit was to placed in them. :
Ezekiel 36:25-27 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules
4.) I would argue this born of water, refers to the water that Jesus was to provide, in that we would never be thirsty again. I believe this is a reference to the word of God and the Spirit, which washes us in regeneration.
John 4:13-14 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again.b The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
John 7:37-39 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, asf the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Ephesians 5:26-27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish
Titus 3:5-6 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
We are not "born of water" through the water that we are baptized in when we are dunked or sprinkled - that's just the outward sign of what has already taken place within. Neither are we "born of water" when we are Baptized by the Spirit into Christ, and into His death and resurrection.
Baptism in water is only the outward sign of what has taken place already when we were born of the Spirit of Christ. The moment we were born of the Spirit of Christ, we were baptized into His death and raised with Him. Else what happens to those who were born of the Spirit, repented and turned to Christ and were due to be baptized in church, but died in a car accident before arriving at the church? Are they not baptized into Christ? Of course they are - they were baptized into Christ the moment they were born of His Spirit.
I agree that the "sacrament" of baptism is an outward symbolic expression of our being buried with Christ' death, our raising with Him, and our washing and regeneration by the Spirit.
I did not mean that the outward sacrament of baptism with literal water is what makes us born again. Sorry if that was confusing.
I simply meant that being born of water and spirit = what the outward expression of the sacrament of baptism symbolizes = being buried in Christ's death and raised with his resurrection to walk in newness of life by His spirit, which washes us and regenerates us.
The key word is "born". It is being born of His Spirit that placed us in Him - and therefore the moment we are born of God/the Spirit of Christ we are baptized by the Spirit of Christ into Christ's death and resurrection.
I agree. That's literally what I stated in post 1535
"For starters, I've never called it a spiritual resurrection. I believe when we come to Christ in repentance and Faith, we are baptized into his death and raised (synegeiro) with His resurrection (anastasis) to walk in newness of life. It is Christ's resurrection (anastasis) that raised us (synegeiro) and made us alive (synezoopoiesen) with Him."
We were born of water when we were born of the flesh, and John baptized with water - but Christ baptizes with the Spirit. That is how we received everlasting life - through the baptism of the Spirit when we were born of the Spirit. The water baptism we receive afterwards is not the same as John's, because John baptized with water unto repentance, but our water baptism is the outward sign of the life we have already received when we were baptized by Christ with the Spirit of God
I completely disagree that the being born of water is being "born of flesh". There is no historical nor scriptural evidence for this.
We know that when we are born of the Spirit it's not "our" 'spiritual resurrection', because we were never alive spiritually prior to our being born from above of the Spirit of God/Christ, who baptized us into Christ's death and raised us with Christ the moment we were born of His Spirit.
So does this partaking in Christ's resurrection by being born from above by His Spirit, which cleanses us, raises us from being dead in our sins, and gives us spiritual life:
1.) Now guarantee our future resurrection(won't be hurt by the 2nd death)?
2.) Now, result in our being a part of the royal priest hood of God?
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