Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

Timtofly · Nov 23, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Do you deny there is an eternity?

Do you deny there is Day with the Lord?

sovereigngrace · Nov 23, 2020

Timtofly said:
Day of the Lord, Day with the Lord, the Lord’s Day. Genesis 2:4

"On the day when Adonai, God, made earth and heaven."

Exodus 20:8-11

8 “Remember the day, Shabbat, to set it apart for God.
9 You have six days to labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Shabbat for Adonai your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work — not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property.
11 For in six days, Adonai made heaven and earth, the sea and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. This is why Adonai blessed the day, Shabbat, and separated it for himself."

Day of Adonai, the Lord's Day.

Hello! These have nothing to do with the second coming. You are foisting your theology on the sacred text.

sovereigngrace · Nov 23, 2020

Timtofly said:
Do you deny there is Day with the Lord?

Answering a question with a question is always telling. That was a simple straightforward question.

sovereigngrace · Nov 24, 2020

Timtofly said:
Do you deny there is Day with the Lord?

Do you deny there is an eternity?

Timtofly · Nov 24, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Answering a question with a question is always telling. That was a simple straightforward question.

I asked first and you answered with a question. Just returning the favor.

Timtofly · Nov 24, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Do you deny there is an eternity?

Are there multiple eternities? I asked first, because Paul says ages to come. Are there multiple eternities as you say there is only one age?

sovereigngrace · Nov 24, 2020

Timtofly said:
I asked first and you answered with a question. Just returning the favor.

Why can you not tell the truth? This totally discredits anything you would try and say. For the record, you said:

"Eternity is not ages plural. There cannot be plural eternities."

I then asked:

"Do you deny there is an eternity?"

You responded to my question with a question:

"Do you deny there is Day with the Lord?"

Well, hello! This is classic avoidance.

Timtofly · Nov 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Why can you not tell the truth? This totally discredits anything you would try and say. For the record, you said:

"Eternity is not ages plural. There cannot be plural eternities."

I then asked:

"Do you deny there is an eternity?"

You responded to my question with a question:

"Do you deny there is Day with the Lord?"

Well, hello! This is classic avoidance.

Then there is more than one age. You deny ages plural. Why?

How can we talk about eternity, when the point is different ages? You are avoiding the age issue and talking about eternity.

I already explained that eternity is outside of creation and transcends creation. You as a created being cannot go there. You deny that aspect of eternity, and conflate it with everlasting.

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. There was nothing and then God created something. You are part of that created something. You will never escape that creation and go to where the creator exist, outside of creation. Jesus said, I go to prepare a place for you. Still inside of what God creates. One cannot escape creation and enter eternity.

Your post where you always accuse people, does that make you feel like God, outside of creation? You seem to do it quite frequently.

sovereigngrace · Nov 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
Then there is more than one age. You deny ages plural. Why?

How can we talk about eternity, when the point is different ages? You are avoiding the age issue and talking about eternity.

I already explained that eternity is outside of creation and transcends creation. You as a created being cannot go there. You deny that aspect of eternity, and conflate it with everlasting.

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the heavens and earth. There was nothing and then God created something. You are part of that created something. You will never escape that creation and go to where the creator exist, outside of creation. Jesus said, I go to prepare a place for you. Still inside of what God creates. One cannot escape creation and enter eternity.

Your post where you always accuse people, does that make you feel like God, outside of creation? You seem to do it quite frequently.

When someone gets saved they enter into eternal life. The life within us is as eternal as God is. We are eternal beings that shall never die. We are born of God. We are born from above. We are a heavenly people. We live and reign in Christ in life and in death.

Ages to come

Scripture does not contradict itself. There are only 2 ages recognized. When aion is used in a plural sense it actually refers to eternity.

Premillennialists and some Partial Preterists present the reference to future “ages” in Ephesians 2:7 as support for the idea of a future age in-between “this age” and “the age to come.” However, that is certainly not the force of the passage. In fact, there is not the slightest hint of an intermediate age in between these two unique ages. Rather the opposite. The reference states, speaking of God: “That in the ages [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”

This text could equally be interpreted the ‘ongoing ages’ or simply eternity. Even in English, we use a similar term to describe eternity – namely “the aeons” (taken from Latin). In its context, this clearly refers to eternity. When the words aeon in Latin and aion in Greek are used in a singular sense they normally relate to this current temporal age, unless expressly describing the afterlife in a broad sweeping holistic way as the “age to come.” When used in a plural way, they normally refer to the impending eternal age that arrives at the second coming. When used in the plural it refers to an extremely long period or the eternal. In geology the plural word refers to the longest time period possible. Research of the original Greek will demonstrate that when used in a future sense the aions (plural) refer to future relate eternity.

In the next chapter to Ephesians 2 in Ephesians 3:21 we see: “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages [Gr. genea or generations – plural], world [Gr. aion singular noun – Strong’s 165] without end [Gr. aion singular noun – Strong’s 165). Amen.” Ephesians 3:21 refers to the eternal state as “the age [of] the ages [Gr. toú aioónos toón aioónoon or the age of eternity].”

Let us look at a number of (the many) inspired passages that show that the plural noun aion can equate to the eternal.

aion plural – Strong’s 165

Romans 11:36: “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

Romans 16:27: “To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

2 Corinthians 11:31: “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165], knoweth that I lie not.”

Galatians 1:5: “To whom be glory for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

Ephesians 3:11: “According to the eternal [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Philippians 4:20: “Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

1 Timothy 1:17: “Now unto the King eternal [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

2 Timothy 4:18: “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

Hebrews 13:8: “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165].”

1 Peter 4:11: “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

1 Peter 5:11: “To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

Revelation 1:18: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165], Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

The reality is, Ephesians 2:7 makes no mention of some alleged future millennial age. The presentation of this passage as supposed evidence of a future sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age is therefore ludicrous in the extreme and shows the deficiency of corroboration for the Premil theory. There is not the slightest intimation of 2 future ages in this passage. Like every other passage you have to insert your thousand years were it doesn’t exist to support your opinion of Revelation 20.

jeffweedaman · Nov 25, 2020

Timtofly said:
T

How can we talk about eternity, when the point is different ages? You are avoiding the age issue and talking about eternity.

Yes there are different ages.
Lets look at what happens at the consummation of those ages.

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,
so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Since sin has been put away at the end of these ages , the age to come will have no death and will therefore be Eternal.

Eph 1
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the boundless greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 25, 2020

jeffweedaman said:
Yes there are different ages.
Lets look at what happens at the consummation of those ages.

Heb 9
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,
so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Since sin has been put away at the end of these ages , the age to come will have no death and will therefore be Eternal.

Eph 1
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the boundless greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Yep. Jesus made it clear that there are only 2 ages that we should concern ourselves with. This temporal age and the eternal age to come.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

In this temporal age, people get married and they die. In the eternal age to come people will not get married and they won't die because we will be like the angels. Very simple.

Jesus returns at the end of this temporal age (Matt 24:3) and based on what He said in Luke 20:34-36, people won't die anymore at that point. That means, the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in when He comes. Which is exactly what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:35-39 and what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
When someone gets saved they enter into eternal life. The life within us is as eternal as God is. We are eternal beings that shall never die. We are born of God. We are born from above. We are a heavenly people. We live and reign in Christ in life and in death.

Ages to come

Scripture does not contradict itself. There are only 2 ages recognized. When aion is used in a plural sense it actually refers to eternity.

Premillennialists and some Partial Preterists present the reference to future “ages” in Ephesians 2:7 as support for the idea of a future age in-between “this age” and “the age to come.” However, that is certainly not the force of the passage. In fact, there is not the slightest hint of an intermediate age in between these two unique ages. Rather the opposite. The reference states, speaking of God: “That in the ages [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”

This text could equally be interpreted the ‘ongoing ages’ or simply eternity. Even in English, we use a similar term to describe eternity – namely “the aeons” (taken from Latin). In its context, this clearly refers to eternity. When the words aeon in Latin and aion in Greek are used in a singular sense they normally relate to this current temporal age, unless expressly describing the afterlife in a broad sweeping holistic way as the “age to come.” When used in a plural way, they normally refer to the impending eternal age that arrives at the second coming. When used in the plural it refers to an extremely long period or the eternal. In geology the plural word refers to the longest time period possible. Research of the original Greek will demonstrate that when used in a future sense the aions (plural) refer to future relate eternity.

In the next chapter to Ephesians 2 in Ephesians 3:21 we see: “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages [Gr. genea or generations – plural], world [Gr. aion singular noun – Strong’s 165] without end [Gr. aion singular noun – Strong’s 165). Amen.” Ephesians 3:21 refers to the eternal state as “the age [of] the ages [Gr. toú aioónos toón aioónoon or the age of eternity].”

Let us look at a number of (the many) inspired passages that show that the plural noun aion can equate to the eternal.

aion plural – Strong’s 165

Romans 11:36: “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

Romans 16:27: “To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

2 Corinthians 11:31: “The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165], knoweth that I lie not.”

Galatians 1:5: “To whom be glory for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

Ephesians 3:11: “According to the eternal [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Philippians 4:20: “Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

1 Timothy 1:17: “Now unto the King eternal [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

2 Timothy 4:18: “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

Hebrews 13:8: “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165].”

1 Peter 4:11: “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165] and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

1 Peter 5:11: “To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165]. Amen.”

Revelation 1:18: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore [Gr. aion plural noun – Strong’s 165], Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

The reality is, Ephesians 2:7 makes no mention of some alleged future millennial age. The presentation of this passage as supposed evidence of a future sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age is therefore ludicrous in the extreme and shows the deficiency of corroboration for the Premil theory. There is not the slightest intimation of 2 future ages in this passage. Like every other passage you have to insert your thousand years were it doesn’t exist to support your opinion of Revelation 20.

So relatively speaking if one does not accept the English, one can justify their opinion with Latin?

Is there Latin for getting around breaking the rules of this forum? Just curious?

Does the Holy Spirit give the every day reader a lesson in Latin, so they can understand, or just those knowledgeable in Latin are "in the know"?

Sorry that you or someone spent a lot of time backing up an opinion that is still as clear as mud. Why is Paul noting eternity in an extremely sophisticated way that needs Latin to figure it out, when he could have just said eternity? So eternity is several ages in a world without end? Is that not what I claimed? This world has an eternity in it of several ages, according to your Latin lesson? So saying there is only one age, according to your own, greatly applauded lesson, you yourself deny eternity in a "world without end" because you claim one age when in fact it should be ages plural? Or is there a clause where one age also means eternity as well?

If per chance there is more than one age, why do you get to decide how the ages are determined? You claim it cannot be, but the slightest chance maybe, there are, John, according to you, got it wrong? Should we go back to recap, just in case?

Why is it so hard for this age to land between the time Satan is captured at the battle of Armageddon and the time Satan is loosed prior to the GWT, as John wrote it?

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The reality is, Ephesians 2:7 makes no mention of some alleged future millennial age. The presentation of this passage as supposed evidence of a future sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age is therefore ludicrous in the extreme and shows the deficiency of corroboration for the Premil theory. There is not the slightest intimation of 2 future ages in this passage. Like every other passage you have to insert your thousand years were it doesn’t exist to support your opinion of Revelation 20.

And once again we add a strawman argument that does not exist to drive a private opinion home after a long study of an unrelated point?

I do not deny there is eternal. God did create a finite world. I assume sin is not eternal in your opinion. Would not the next reality be free of sin as opposed to your eternity of sin, as you seem to contradict your self, a climactic ending, to your own eternal world?

sovereigngrace · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
So relatively speaking if one does not accept the English, one can justify their opinion with Latin?

Is there Latin for getting around breaking the rules of this forum? Just curious?

Does the Holy Spirit give the every day reader a lesson in Latin, so they can understand, or just those knowledgeable in Latin are "in the know"?

Sorry that you or someone spent a lot of time backing up an opinion that is still as clear as mud. Why is Paul noting eternity in an extremely sophisticated way that needs Latin to figure it out, when he could have just said eternity? So eternity is several ages in a world without end? Is that not what I claimed? This world has an eternity in it of several ages, according to your Latin lesson? So saying there is only one age, according to your own, greatly applauded lesson, you yourself deny eternity in a "world without end" because you claim one age when in fact it should be ages plural? Or is there a clause where one age also means eternity as well?

If per chance there is more than one age, why do you get to decide how the ages are determined? You claim it cannot be, but the slightest chance maybe, there are, John, according to you, got it wrong? Should we go back to recap, just in case?

Why is it so hard for this age to land between the time Satan is captured at the battle of Armageddon and the time Satan is loosed prior to the GWT, as John wrote it?

Once again it is the biblical evidence that forbids your beliefs, not Latin. You are always looking an opportunity to duck the issues and Scripture. That is your pattern. It is the Book that you are fighting, and you obviously know that.

You fail to address anything. You cannot. Your avoidance only serves to push people towards the truth.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Once again it is the biblical evidence that forbids your beliefs, not Latin. You are always looking an opportunity to duck the issues and Scripture. That is your pattern. It is the Book that you are fighting, and you obviously know that.

You fail to address anything. You cannot. Your avoidance only serves to push people towards the truth.

And once again you attack the poster, and fail to address any of the post.

sovereigngrace · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
And once again you attack the poster, and fail to address any of the post.

How about acknowledging i was talking about your false teaching?

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
How about acknowledging i was talking about your false teaching?

You have yet to prove what I post is not God's Word. Attacking me instead.

You claim the Second Coming does not happen before the Day of the Lord. Can you prove that instead of made up opinion?

Does the second coming start the day of the Lord or does the Second Coming happen at the end of the Day of the Lord? It is not that difficult. One view is pre and one view is post. The post view claims the Lord is not even present during the day of the Lord. The pre view declares the Lord returns and at the end of the Day, the earth and heavens are destroyed.

Why is this so complicated?

sovereigngrace · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
You have yet to prove what I post is not God's Word. Attacking me instead.

You claim the Second Coming does not happen before the Day of the Lord. Can you prove that instead of made up opinion?

Until you recognize that your teaching is not scriptural but has been taught to you by man you will never turn from it. The coming (parousia) of the Lord is the day of the Lord, which is the concluding day of history. Your invented teaching of two future comings of the Lord was unknown to the Bible writers, the ECFs and the Reformers. It is a Jesuit invention.

You or no Pretribber has been able to present one scripture that teaches a rapture of the church followed by a 7-year trib followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. That is because it is not in the Bible.

Does the second coming start the day of the Lord or does the Second Coming happen at the end of the Day of the Lord? It is not that difficult. One view is pre and one view is post. The post view claims the Lord is not even present during the day of the Lord. The pre view declares the Lord returns and at the end of the Day, the earth and heavens are destroyed.

Why is this so complicated?

2 Peter 3:3-15 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s coming.
It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Until you recognize that your teaching is not scriptural but has been taught to you by man you will never turn from it. The coming (parousia) of the Lord is the day of the Lord is the concluding day of history. Your invented teaching of two future comings of the Lord was unknown to the Bible writers, the ECFs and the Reformers. It is a Jesuit invention.

You or no Pretribber has been able to present one scripture that teaches a rapture of the church followed by a 7-year trib followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. That is because it is not in the Bible.

2 Peter 3:3-15 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.

These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”

The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s coming.

It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.

This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.

The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.

We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.

What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.

The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.

What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.

The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”

The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

None of this answers my question, and I am accused of avoidance. Yes or no, does the Second Coming start the Day of the Lord, Pre. Or is the Second Coming at the end of the Day of the Lord, post?

I do not claim a 7 year tribulation.

I am not questioning the Second Coming.

I do not bully or mock posters with absurd post claiming the Day of the Lord is full of sin infested, goat infested nonsense.

Yes, amil is nonsense to me just as you have claimed pre-mill is nonsense to you. That is nothing new or life threatening.

John claims the Lamb returns in the 6th seal and never leaves. There is the separation of the sheep and the goats. There is the harvest of the wheat and tares. Is this not part of the Day of the Lord? The Lord is present doing this harvest. Why would you disagree with that? At what point is The Second Coming? I agree with all those verses you posted.

Then you went on your points about what a millennium is not. I agree it is not all those nonsense points. It is the Day with the Lord, and that is why John writes 1000 years. Why avoid the point that John and Peter are in sync on the Day of the Lord?

sovereigngrace · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
None of this answers my question, and I am accused of avoidance. Yes or no, does the Second Coming start the Day of the Lord, Pre. Or is the Second Coming at the end of the Day of the Lord, post?

I do not claim a 7 year tribulation.

I am not questioning the Second Coming.

I do not bully or mock posters with absurd post claiming the Day of the Lord is full of sin infested, goat infested nonsense.

Yes, amil is nonsense to me just as you have claimed pre-mill is nonsense to you. That is nothing new or life threatening.

John claims the Lamb returns in the 6th seal and never leaves. There is the separation of the sheep and the goats. There is the harvest of the wheat and tares. Is this not part of the Day of the Lord? The Lord is present doing this harvest. Why would you disagree with that? At what point is The Second Coming? I agree with all those verses you posted.

Then you went on your points about what a millennium is not. I agree it is not all those nonsense points. It is the Day with the Lord, and that is why John writes 1000 years. Why avoid the point that John and Peter are in sync on the Day of the Lord?

They are the one climactic event. You deny what the Book says.

Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days separated by 1000 years+?

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