Rapture vs. Second Coming

Poppycock.

Christ only returns once and that has been the doctrine for nearly all of church history.

Jesus told his disciples, “He who endures to the end shall be saved”. So a secret rapture doesn’t fit.

Matthew 24:13

Jesus returns once at the end of the age to raise the dead and judge the nations. The rapture happens at that time.

friend of said:

Sorry but I don't believe the church (the bride of Christ) experiences the Tribulation or Great Tribulation.



He was undoubtedly talking about those who convert to Christianity during the period of Tribulation.

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Christians have always been going through tribulation. Jesus said, “In this world you will have tribulation” (John 16:33). Jesus was clear to his disciples that they would be hated and endure the tribulation. Stop living a pipe dream. In the book of John Jesus is clear that the resurrection happens on the last day.

John 6:39-40

John 11:24

Devin Hammond said:

Jesus told his disciples, “He who endures to the end shall be saved”. So a secret rapture doesn’t fit.

Matthew 24:13

Jesus returns once at the end of the age to raise the dead and judge the nations. The rapture happens at that time.

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John 3:16 and Rom 10 :9-10 and Christ saying He is the only way to the Father. So he that "to stay under, i.e. Remain; figuratively, to undergo, i.e. Bear, have fortitude, persevere." shall be saved. Some are twisting "endure till the end" so say something it does not.

So were taking Matt 24 that was only said to the Jewish people. Was not said to one Christian.. no Church and applying it to us today? Something had already took place when He is sharing this and that has not happen yet. What do we see hear when Christ comes in the air? You don't find that in Matt at all. And no where In 1st 2nd Thes does it give a time frame. Please no offense but there are greater wiser people since Christ left searching on this and still no one knows PRE MID or POST. Why? Because its NOT written.

Paul.. how here or since Christ left has had a greater revelation then Paul had? Now if it was just Paul what wrote in Thes then we can go silly with this. But it was the sweet sweet Holy Spirit where He said through Paul "we which remain". Paul put himself in that.. that he will also see it. One can not ignore this.

Christ will come in the air again who is with Him? We will hear a shout a voice a trumpet of God <--this exactly like that has to happen. He comes in the air. The dead will rise and we will be changed and meet Him in the air and be with Him forever. And He said told the 12 where He was going and that He would come back for them/us and receive us unto Him self so WHERE key word.. where He is we will be. Where is He? He said it.. you KNOW where I go and how I go. He told them. I go back to my Fathers house. Thats where He will take us. That has to happen. He can not lie. That was not Christ talking it was the Father.

friend of said:

4 Imminent, any-moment, signless
4 Follows definite predicted signs including tribulation

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In fact, if Pauls "apostasia" in 2 Thess 2:3 is really the departing of believers at the rapture, then the rapture itself is a sign of the second coming. I'm reading some notes on "The Falling Away - Spiritual Departure or Physical Rapture?" by Dr. Andy Woods and I think there's some good points made. If he's correct, it would be the strongest case for pretrib rapture I've encountered.

friend of said:

Rapture Translation of all believers to incorruptible body

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Rapture is spiritual. It is the mortal meeting immortality. It happens mainly through our sanctification. When flesh takes on immortality through the Holy Spirit and dies to its old nature.

The revealing of Christ is first of all within.

John 14:23 "Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Devin Hammond said:

Jesus told his disciples, “He who endures to the end shall be saved”. So a secret rapture doesn’t fit.

Correct .... no secret rapture.

When He returns the 1st resurrection happens (I don't like referring to it as "rapture' as it then gets confused with the claimed "secret rapture" which is not so ... such as you stated.

Matthew 24:13

Jesus returns once at the end of the age to raise the dead and judge the nations. The rapture happens at that time.

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Judgement happens in heaven before He returns.

Revelation 22:12

Berean Study Bible
“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

Isaiah 40:10
Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and His arm establishes His rule. His reward is with Him, and His recompense accompanies Him.

friend of said:

Sorry but I don't believe the church (the bride of Christ) experiences the Tribulation or Great Tribulation.



He was undoubtedly talking about those who convert to Christianity during the period of Tribulation.

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The elect will indeed experience the great tribulation ... however those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:21-22

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

friend of said:

Sorry but I don't believe the church (the bride of Christ) experiences the Tribulation or Great Tribulation.



He was undoubtedly talking about those who convert to Christianity during the period of Tribulation.

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Christ told us that we would experience tribulation in this world, but to take courage because He's conquered the world.

Even if there is some great big tribulation at the end of history--a position I don't necessarily agree with--that we wouldn't experience it, but would experience all the tribulations and sufferings throughout history, doesn't make any sense.

Christ told us to take up our cross and follow Him. Even in the midst of the greatest of tribulation, He is with us, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He is enough. In living or dying, Jesus is enough.

-CryptoLutheran

eleos1954 said:

Judgement happens in heaven before He returns.

Revelation 22:12

Berean Study Bible
“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

Isaiah 40:10
Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and His arm establishes His rule. His reward is with Him, and His recompense accompanies Him.

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That doesn’t say anything about judgement happening in heaven.

Devin Hammond said:

That doesn’t say anything about judgement happening in heaven.

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point IS judgement has already taken place before His return ... where IS Jesus? He is in heaven. HIs reward is with Him when He returns.

friend of said:

I'm confident its talking about those that convert to Christianity after the rapture

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1st Thessalonians 2

5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.

8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them.

11For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, 12in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

^^^^^ nobody can survive on earth - the saved go to heaven ... everyone else on earth are destroyed .... 1,000 years later the 2nd resurrection (the lost) happens.

eleos1954 said:

point IS judgement has already taken place before His return ... where IS Jesus? He is in heaven. HIs reward is with Him when He returns.

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No it doesn’t say that. Just because his reward is with him doesn’t mean that the judgement has already taken place. The judgement occurs when he returns.

The "rapture" is an innovation introduced in the last 100 years. The stance the Christian Church has always taken for the past 2000 years is that the 1000 years spoken of in Holy Writ is figurative and is happening now without end. I guess Protestants call that amillenialism? Call it what you like, I suppose. It's the truth. The concept of the "rapture" is what you get when you separate the Bible from the Church.

Devin Hammond said:

Poppycock.

Christ only returns once and that has been the doctrine for nearly all of church history.

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Not true , read Church Fathers