Day of The Lord - Day of Jesus' Future Return

Davy

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John was talking about people who were already dead at the time he wrote the book and who would die during the thousand years. Rev 20:7-8 is not referring to "the rest of the dead". That is quite a stretch. You have your own private interpretation here. Does God reveal things like this only to you? The rest of the dead are resurrected for the judgment as described in Rev 20:11-15. Those who die during Satan's little season would be resurrected at that time as well.


You mean do I believe what Jesus said in John 5:28-29 that ALL in the graves will hear His voice, and shall come forth to their respective resurrection type? You bet I believe what He said! Why don't you instead of your trying to change the Scripture as written???

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

What "hour" would that be? The hour of His second coming on the last day of this present world.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Also see the requirements Paul made in 1 Corinthians 15:53 to have eternal Life through Jesus Christ. Each MUST have their 'mortal' part put on 'immortality'. So how does the "second death" affect that?
That is just for believers, not unbelievers. Unbelievers are not mentioned in 1 Cor 15:50-54. The second death has no power over believers.

It means unsaved will still have 'mortal' souls that are liable to perish at the second death. Those are the nations that Satan will deceive one last time when he is loosed at the end of the thousand years.
Wrong. No one in the history of the world has believed that until you. The unsaved dead, along with the righteous dead will be resurrected on judgment day when Christ returns and will then all give an account of themselves (Rom 14:10-12).
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You mean do I believe what Jesus said in John 5:28-29 that ALL in the graves will hear His voice, and shall come forth to their respective resurrection type? You bet I believe what He said! Why don't you instead of your trying to change the Scripture as written???

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

What "hour" would that be? The hour of His second coming on the last day of this present world.
Is that not what I've said multiple times myself? Yes. Do you not know that all Amillennialists like myself believe that the saved and the lost get resurrected at the same hour that Jesus talked about? Why are you so ignorant of the Amil view?

The difference in our views is that I believe that the unsaved are resurrected and then have to give account of themselves at the judgment at which time they are then cast into the lake of fire. You, on the other hand, believe in this heretical doctrine that they will get a second chance to be saved. Scripture does not teach that anywhere.
 
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Davy

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That is just for believers, not unbelievers. Unbelievers are not mentioned in 1 Cor 15:50-54. The second death has no power over believers.

Afraid not. That change at the twinkling of an eye that is coming on the last trump will be for all still alive on earth, except for certain ones that God is going to destroy out of the armies coming out of the northern quarters, as some even of those are going to be left and made to bow to Christ in the future Millennium (this per Zechariah 14, why don't you Jews read it!).

Wrong. No one in the history of the world has believed that until you. The unsaved dead, along with the righteous dead will be resurrected on judgment day when Christ returns and will then all give an account of themselves (Rom 14:10-12).

So you're another one of those who lives in pop believing, the majority is always right, and all that sort of thing. Yeah, the unbelieving Jews reacted to my Lord Jesus and His disciples that same way too.

All in the graves will be resurrected on the day of Christ's return, I never disagreed with that. But the Revelation 20 chapter and the John 5:28-29 Scripture make it clear that there will be a "resurrection of damnation" on that day also, which will still be subject to perish at the "second death"! And Rev.20 defines the "second death" as destruction in the future "lake of fire" at the end of the thousand years. I presented the Scripture 'as written', and tried to explain it, and you mock not me, but what is written.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Afraid not. That change at the twinkling of an eye that is coming on the last trump will be for all still alive on earth, except for certain ones that God is going to destroy out of the armies coming out of the northern quarters, as some even of those are going to be left and made to bow to Christ in the future Millennium (this per Zechariah 14, why don't you Jews read it!).
You are sadly mistaken. 1 Cor 15:50-54 is clearly only talking about believers because it relates to inheriting the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50). Only believers will inherit the kingdom of God, obviously. The time when unbelievers will bow down to Christ is at the judgment (Romans 14:10-12). You have the timing of things all out of whack. There will be no mortal living unbelievers who survive the second coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-13, Matt 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10). You need to allow the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament prophecies for you instead of the other way around.

As for your comment about Zechariah 14, what is that all about? What do you mean "you Jews"? That comes across like an antisemitic racial slur. But, I'm not even a national Jew. I'm a spiritual Jew per what Paul taught in Romans 2:28-29.

So you're another one of those who lives in pop believing, the majority is always right, and all that sort of thing. Yeah, the unbelieving Jews reacted to my Lord Jesus and His disciples that same way too.
Not at all. The majority is usually wrong. Do you have to miss the point every time someone says something to you? Do you do that on purpose?

My point is that if you are the only one who believes something (not just talking about a small amount of people, but the only one) then that raises a red flag. God does not reveal truth to just one person. You need to re-evaluate your understanding of Revelation 20 because it has led you to believe in the heretical doctrine of believing that people will get a second chance at salvation after death. That is absolutely not taught anywhere in scripture.

All in the graves will be resurrected on the day of Christ's return, I never disagreed with that.
I never said you did.

But the Revelation 20 chapter and the John 5:28-29 Scripture make it clear that there will be a "resurrection of damnation" on that day also, which will still be subject to perish at the "second death"! And Rev.20 defines the "second death" as destruction in the future "lake of fire" at the end of the thousand years. I presented the Scripture 'as written', and tried to explain it, and you mock not me, but what is written.
You need to consider that Jesus returns after the thousand years because the way you see things currently makes some scripture make no sense at all. And, again, it leads you to believing a heretical doctrine of a second chance at salvation after death.

The day of judgment clearly occurs at Christ's second coming, as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. And we can see from Revelation 20:11-15 that the day of judgment occurs after the thousand years. That means Christ comes after the thousand years.

Have you ever considered the fact that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection as taught in Acts 26:23, 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, Revelation 1:5 and other scripture? Do you know that when we're saved we spiritually have part in His resurrection (read Eph 2:1-6 and Romans 6, for example)? Read Revelation 20:6 and then compare to Revelation 1:5-6 which indicates that Christ is already reigning and that we (believers) are already priests of God and Christ in His kingdom.
 
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Timtofly

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How can it be fulfilled in both the 5th and 6th seal if it's "the one and ONLY Second Coming"? Aren't you turning it into a 2nd and 3rd coming by doing that?
They go hand in hand. Paul said those with Christ are glorified at the same time as the living at the Second Coming. The 5th seal covers those glorified in heaven. The 6th seal are those alive and remain glorified in the air. There is only one Second Coming. The 7th Seal just opens the Lamb's book of life, and then silence. Now it is the start of the Trumpets and Jacob's trouble centered around Jerusalem.

Do you think they are literal seals that bind up the Lamb's book of life? Even if not, there are six steps presented in regards to the church, that are signs leading to the Second Coming and Paul says the Second Coming is when the church is glorified and presented to God as complete. Ephesians 5:25-27.

25 As for husbands, love your wives, just as the Messiah loved the Messianic Community, indeed, gave himself up on its behalf,
26 in order to set it apart for God, making it clean through immersion in the mikveh, so to speak,
27 in order to present the Messianic Community to himself as a bride to be proud of, without a spot, wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and without defect.

The "bride" cannot be presented until complete. When God says, "ok Go get the living church", that is when the Lamb will know it is time to go and collect the church and present her to God as complete. Not some in heaven and then later some on earth. Do you not see the robe of white as a sign the wedding is about to happen? The robe of white is the spirit wrapped around us again after Adam lost that image part of God. No one has their spirit wrapped around them as a robe of white until the 5th seal, and those on earth in the 6th seal. Who is right, John after a little season or Paul stating it happens at the same time? Some say the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet happens at the same time, before the 7th seal, and the other 6 trumpets, evidently. Just to prove their theology cannot be wrong. It is all over in a second, even without Satan and FP, nor Antichrist. Revelation 6 never claims it is the end, it keeps going after that and into the 7th seal and then 6 trumpets. How can it all be over when the 7th seal is still holding the book closed? That scenario puts the book and all other judgments into the NHNE, even the GWT and Satan are in the NHNE.
 
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Timtofly

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So, do you only read translations that predate the Reformation then since you believe all of the English translations are fraudulent?

Which translations do you read?
I never said they were fraudulent. I said some add that in. Does it matter what I read and use? How is that relevant to the point some versions just say heaven?

If the originals just say heaven, then how can bodies be found in earth, especially graves? The originals would be against a bodily resurrection from the earth, but bodies from Paradise that come with Jesus who is in His body.

Those translations adding the earth would be for a bodily resurrection prior to the souls being gathered, I guess once the souls are gathered they need bodies, first before Jesus can leave Paradise?

My guess would be it was added to prove a necessary bodily resurrection, that was not necessary prior to the Reformation. The other reason it would be necessary is post trib, especially amil. No one survives the Second Coming thus gathering bodies on earth is equated to those in heaven. Post trib also needs bodies gathered from the earth.

Pre-mill and "pre-trib" should not be worried about bodies on earth period. Those alive are caught up to meet those just gathered in the heavens, Paradise. The dead bodies in the graves remain there until the GWT.

The confusion will always be those putting the first resurrection and the Second Coming at the same moment. I do not know why the KJV added "from the earth". All the dead in Christ should be in the first resurrection type. The permanent body in Paradise that is incorruptible. At the Second Coming per Revelation 6, glorification happens then. John called it a robe of white, and Paul described it as mortality putting on immortality (put on as a robe). 1 Corinthians 15:53-57

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption: and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible hath put on incorruption, and this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying, that is written, O Death is swallowed up into victory.
55 O death where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin: and the strength of sin is the Law.
57 But thanks be unto God, which hath given us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is why I say, the soul has a body wrapped around it, and the body has a spirit wrapped around it. That is the complete image God created Adam with. Adam lost both body and spirit. The spirit is with God. The body became corruption. The soul died to the incorruptible body and the spirit.

That is why God sends the Holy Spirit in place of our spirit. At physical death victory is won with an incorruptible body. At the Second Coming the victory over spiritual death when the spirit is wrapped around the incorruptible body. Paul covers both deaths and both changes as the victory over death. Death that was passed down from Adam to all his descendants.

The dead have risen first, because the first resurrection type happened at the Cross to all those in Abraham's bosom, and has been nonstop since then. The victory over the grave happened then and does not need to be repeated at the Second Coming. The first resurrection happens when this physical body stops and the soul enters the permanent body in Paradise. All are in Paradise with an incorruptible body. They are called upon by the angels to gather for the Second Coming to go with Christ, and be presented along with the ALIVE bodies that are changed instantly with both the first resurrection, without pain of death, and the glorified presence of the spirit.

The big deal about forcing an end time bodily resurrection effects the living in no way, shape or form. Those in Paradise are probably laughing their permanent heads "off" over such a serious eschatology non issue, folks have made for themselves. They are the ones enjoying their bodies that sinners on earth in flesh bodies are arguing over.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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They go hand in hand. Paul said those with Christ are glorified at the same time as the living at the Second Coming. The 5th seal covers those glorified in heaven. The 6th seal are those alive and remain glorified in the air. There is only one Second Coming. The 7th Seal just opens the Lamb's book of life, and then silence. Now it is the start of the Trumpets and Jacob's trouble centered around Jerusalem.
How can anything happen after the 7th seal when the 6th seal already indicates that the time of God's wrath has come and it has a figurative description of complete destruction that is about to occur at that time? It seems clear that the reason there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal is because Christ and His angels will have descended from heaven to deliver God's final wrath upon the earth. So, the trumpets can't follow that.

The seals, trumpets and vials are parallel to each other, not chronological. If you try to have the seals all happen first, then all the trumpets followed by all the vials then you run into major problems. The seventh trumpet signals the time of the judgment and the destruction of the wicked. It's parallel to Rev 19:11-21 as well as Rev 20:9-15. Your chronological method of interpreting the book of Revelation just doesn't work.

Do you think they are literal seals that bind up the Lamb's book of life? Even if not, there are six steps presented in regards to the church, that are signs leading to the Second Coming and Paul says the Second Coming is when the church is glorified and presented to God as complete. Ephesians 5:25-27.

25 As for husbands, love your wives, just as the Messiah loved the Messianic Community, indeed, gave himself up on its behalf,
26 in order to set it apart for God, making it clean through immersion in the mikveh, so to speak,
27 in order to present the Messianic Community to himself as a bride to be proud of, without a spot, wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and without defect.
I wasn't familiar with the Bible translation you were quoting from here so I had to look it up. I see that you're quoting from the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB).

Remember when you told me in another post that Mark 13:27 saying that the angels gather the elect "from the uttermost part of the earth" (quoted from the KJV) was something the translators fraudulently added to support their modern theology? Guess what? Your CJB translation does the same thing. Observe:

Complete Jewish Bible
Mark 13:26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with tremendous power and glory. 27 He will send out his angels and gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

How is that any different than what this says:

King James Version
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Looks like you're either going to have to acknowledge that you were wrong about what you said to me earlier about this verse or you're going to have to find a different translation that says what you want this verse to say. Good luck with that.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I never said they were fraudulent. I said some add that in.
And you clearly indicated that they should not have added it in. But, your translation has the same thing. If it's something added then why do all the translations have it there?

Why would you want to use a translation that adds things that you think weren't supposed to be there? I sure wouldn't use any translation that I thought was erroneously adding things to scripture that aren't supposed to be there.

Does it matter what I read and use? How is that relevant to the point some versions just say heaven?
Of course it matters! Are you kidding me? You should use a translation that doesn't contain any verses that you think that translators added things to that aren't supposed to be there and that you think aren't in the original text that they translated from. Why in the world would you even want to use such a translation like that?

Tell me which translations just say that the elect are gathered only from heaven in Mark 13:27.

If the originals just say heaven, then how can bodies be found in earth, especially graves? The originals would be against a bodily resurrection from the earth, but bodies from Paradise that come with Jesus who is in His body.
Show me some evidence that the originals just say heaven.

Those translations adding the earth would be for a bodily resurrection prior to the souls being gathered, I guess once the souls are gathered they need bodies, first before Jesus can leave Paradise?
What do you mean adding the earth? Again, show me your evidence that it was added. You are making a serious charge against the English Bible translators, including the translators of the Complete Jewish Bible that you're using, so you should be able to back that up.

The confusion will always be those putting the first resurrection and the Second Coming at the same moment. I do not know why the KJV added "from the earth".
Dude, your Complete Jewish Bible translation has the same thing. Why are you just mentioning the KJV here as if you've already forgotten that I showed you that the CJB has the same thing?

Once again, from the Complete Jewish Bible:

Mark 13:26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with tremendous power and glory. 27 He will send out his angels and gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Also, I'm not saying the first resurrection happens when the second coming happens. That is a premil doctrine. What you disagreed with me about before is that Mark 13:24-27 is the same event as 1 Thess 4:13-17. That's why you try to remove the "from the ends of the earth" part from Mark 13:27 because with that part there, it agrees with 1 Thess 4:13-17.

The big deal about forcing an end time bodily resurrection effects the living in no way, shape or form. Those in Paradise are probably laughing their permanent heads "off" over such a serious eschatology non issue, folks have made for themselves. They are the ones enjoying their bodies that sinners on earth in flesh bodies are arguing over.
They are probably laughing at the idea of someone criticizing the KJV for supposedly adding "from the uttermost part of the earth" to Mark 13:27 while the translation you're using does the same thing. You say it's a non-issue and yet your doctrine depends on that verse not saying "from the earth" and that's why you're trying to say it's not supposed to be there. Yet, your translation has it there as well. Again, you probably should use a translation that actually agrees with your doctrine if you can find one.
 
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Timtofly

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You are still not understanding. In the story Jesus gave about Lazarus and the rich man at the end... of Luke 16 (not the Lazarus that was wrapped up and buried in a cave), what happened to the poor beggar Lazarus when he died and was taken by angels to the bosom of Abraham?

Luke 16:22
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
KJV


Do you not see that both Lazarus and the rich man died, literally, and their flesh was buried? Yet they both appeared in Paradise, but not on the same side in Paradise. So what kind of body were they in when they appeared in Paradise? or was our Lord Jesus just fibbing to us about that kind thing of going to Paradise after death of the flesh, and lied also to the malefactor crucified with Him about going to Paradise? (Luke 23:43).
Are you equating Lazarus in the parable with the brother of Mary and Martha?

I think they are.

Jesus called Lazarus back to prove several points. An incorruptible body can happen. The rich man's brothers still would not believe Jesus was the Messiah. But that is just my thoughts.

The reality per God's Word, is that the concept of death has different meaning for different times. For this present world, death is about the death of our flesh body. For the world to come, death is about the "second death", which is destruction of one's spirit/soul in the future "lake of fire". So the term "the dead" is meant differently in that world to come after Lord Jesus returns.

1. flesh death, 1st death = for this present flesh world only
2. "second death" = for the world to come only, the destruction of the spirit/mortal soul.


It's really that simple. There won't be some in resurrected bodies, while others are still in flesh bodies in that world to come. The unsaved will still be spiritually dead in their spirit/soul, not believing on Jesus Christ. The only thing that will have changed is, their flesh will have been cast off.

Thus "the dead" of Rev.20:5 are raised on the day of Christ's return also, which is what the John 5:28-29 is about too.

Just like the allegory Jesus used about the blind Pharisees, how they appeared like whited tombs on the outside, but inside were full of dead men's bones, that was show the concept of being without Christ, one's spirit not born again through His Blood shed on the cross. That is literally what the unsaved are like even now; their souls are still literally dead inside their flesh body without Christ Jesus. That means those are 'spiritually dead' inside. Even when their flesh dies or is cast off on the last day, their spirit with soul is still... spiritually dead and not born again in Christ. That is what "the dead" means in Rev.20:5.

Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
KJV

Rom 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him That raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He That raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

KJV

So many totally misinterpret that above Romans 8:11 verse about the mortal body being quickened, wrongly thinking Paul was talking about our flesh body. No, he was pointing to our 'spirit' with soul, because that last phrase "that dwelleth in you" isn't about flesh. It's about the spirit/soul that dwells INSIDE our flesh body. What is quickened when we die, or changed on the last day, is our 'spirit' by God's Spirit, not our flesh. This is why Apostle Paul was emphatic that the resurrection is to a "spiritual body", not another flesh body.

I do not see the GWT as being any part of a "world to come". It is the only place judgment is final and those souls are never resurrected bodily, that is only assumed. But I was taught no redemption or escape from the lake of fire when before the GWT. If they are given life, and they ask God to forgive them and not remove their name, why would they not come to life?

But for the most part coming to life to be thrown into the lake of fire is not really a "coming to life" experience. It ends up in Death any way.

I do not accept our spirit is on earth or in us. It is the outer robe, outside of the body. If we had it we would be transfigured and shine like a star. See Revelation 21-22. I accept a dead spirit is a demon, that has been banished from God's presence. Dead, not because it sinned. Dead because a reprobate soul on earth removed all of God's glory and it is dark without any hope of being brought back to God. That is why a demon knows all about God, but cannot return to God. Is that reversible or sinning past a point of no return? The meaning of reprobate is one rejected by God. The GWT is the reunion of a dead soul to a dead spirit, demon.

So if all souls are in that body in the world to come, then the idea of being 'dead' has a different meaning. And so does the idea of 'living' have a different meaning in that time also...

Millennium Timing:
1. being dead = one's spirit/soul is still mortal and liable to die in the "lake of fire" at the "second death", the unsaved of that time.
2. the Living = those who will have put on immortality through Christ Jesus and will never die.

Thus the Revelation 20:5 verse really means, the unsaved, the spiritually dead, will not live again for the thousand years until they 'believe' on Christ Jesus and their soul is born again through Him. This is only hinted at though in Rev.20, because it mentions a FIRST resurrection.

If someone says, the FIRST widget, what do they automatically think of next? the SECOND, or another widget, at least one more after the first for sure! Well what KIND of resurrection was the 1st resurrection per Rev.20? The SAVED, those in Christ!

Likewise at the end of the 1,000 years, there will be at least one more 'resurrection of life' like the 1st one. During the 1,000 years, The Gospel will be accepted by many of those unsaved souls who NEVER had their opportunity to hear during this present world. And especially Israel in part which God blinded away from The Gospel so it would go to the Gentiles, per Romans 11, that will be their first opportunity to 'hear' The Gospel with eyes to see, and ears to hear, and believe. And many of them will believe on Jesus then (end of Zechariah 12).

Preaching and teaching under Jesus our Boss will be the main duty of His elect priests in that time!

Ezek 44:23-25
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
KJV


That is why Jesus told His elect of the Church of Philadelphia that He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship at the feet of His elect (Revelation 3:9).

For those unsaved that still refuse to believe The Gospel after the thousand years, they instead will choose to perish in the "lake of fire" with Satan, hell, and death.

If you read the 4th seal, Death is introduced. Why is Death distinguished from sheol?

1) There is no hope for the goats, everlasting punishment.

2) There is no hope for the tares, everlasting punishment.

3) There is no hope for those with the mark, who have "sold" their soul to Satan. Revelation 13 and 14 declares those with the mark seemingly exchanged the mark for their name in the Lamb's book of life. You cannot be in the book and have the mark at the same time. Nor if you have the mark, getting your head chopped off, can reverse the process. It is like they were never in the book at all.

After Armageddon, none of Adam's flesh is left on earth. Not because it is the end end. It is the end of Adam's 6000 years of punishment. No more sin nature period. The only humans alive are those resurrected in Revelation 20:4. We know they are at least those without a mark, but beheaded. I do not accept that is all.

We still have sheep gathered after the completion of the church. We still have 144k Jewish male virgins, who follow the Lamb throughout the whole period of Christ on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. The sheep and the wheat are harvested by the angels and can only be resurrected in the resurrection of Revelation 20:4. Why is the church not part of this resurrection? They live in Paradise and the New Jerusalem. There is still people necessary to populate earth. The church can no longer produce offspring but are now like the angels. No one has been born in Paradise during the last 1990 years, and that does not change after the body is glorified. Paradise does not send babies to populate the earth.

Death as introduced in the 4th seal is the only type of death in the next millennium. Any one who rebels under Christ and His direct rule will be sent to Death, not sheol. There is no return from that Death. After the 6th seal, no more hope for the goats, the tares, and those who take the mark. The church is complete, and grace is at an end. God will choose some, but no one can make that choice for themselves. The only remaining choice and one for eternal life is those beheaded. Revelation 20:4 is only specific on that one final ability to choose. The sheep and wheat do not make a choice either way. They cannot unchoose to be sheep or wheat, because they never had a choice to begin with.

Amil remove these people from type and just put them into Paradise free of choice in the matter, and then claim the earth can never have a population again, because they sent all humanity to heaven and left none on earth. Only two types, heaven or the lake of fire. There cannot be a third type living on earth, per Amil. Evidently not even in the New Earth, because still a third type. The church cannot produce any offspring. The lake of fire cannot produce any offspring. There certainly is never a third group to populate earth.

Their idealism is so far out in left field, there is no Scripture to prove they are wrong or right, thus they think their idealism is untouchable. I agree, even God's Word does not touch it.
 
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Timtofly

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In reality, per Isaiah 25, and the end of Zechariah 14 with the unsaved nations, they will be in the body of incorruption after Jesus returns to reign for the 1,000 years. But it's their 'souls' that will still be in a liable to perish state throughout Christ's reign with His elect of the first resurrection. Those unsaved are "the dead" of Revelation 20:5 that live not again until after the 1,000 years. That idea of their living again is dependent upon accepting Jesus during the 1,000 years, and they will receive the "resurrection of life" type, their souls putting on immortality through Faith on Jesus Christ. Those of the dead that still refuse Christ will then go into the lake of fire.
I do not accept an extension to the plan allowing sin to go on in the millennium. Revelation 10:5-7 settles sin once and for all time in the 7th Trumpet.

5 "Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted his right hand toward heaven
6 and swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

The hidden plan was to only allow sin to reign for 6000 years. Not that sin has authority. This carnal flesh demands sin be rampant and in control. We are slaves to our sin nature. "For as by one man, sin entered the world, and death by sin". The Cross covered both, and death was defeated. An incorruptible body given in exchange for a corruptible one, but one has to pass through the valley of the shadow of death first. Now to take care of sin we have to crucify the flesh daily.

"Getting saved" is only accepting the Atonement. Being changed does not occur at that moment, but credited to our account. Yes we are changed in God's view and already there. He put our names as acceptance even before creating this existence. The practicality is that the final product comes in steps after this physical body dies. We have the Holy Spirit in place of our spirit. We crucify the flesh instead of having an incorruptible body.

The experience we have as ambassadors on earth currently is going to stop at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Being an ambassador stopped at the 6th seal. Sin and death by sin stops at the 7th Trumpet. Christ ruling on earth is a totally different experience.
 
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Timtofly

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Where does it indicate that anyone will be resurrected at the end of the thousand years? It doesn't. All people will be resurrected after the thousand years and Satan's little season
What does this mean? You say no then immediately say yes. Is "anyone" not part of the all? The end of the thousand years is after the 1000th year, no? Does the timing of Satan's little season matter?
 
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Timtofly

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That prophecy also talks about animal sacrifices being performed for the atonement or reconciliation of the people. How can that be when the old covenant is obsolete and Jesus already made the "once for all" sacrifice for the sins of all people? Why are you so willing to draw conclusions from one passage that contradict other clear scriptures?
How can it refer to the NHNE? is animal sacrifices extended after the NHNE? It surely cannot apply now since 70AD removed them permanently. They did no start up again elsewhere.
 
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Timtofly

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All of the dead get resurrected at the same general time as John 5:28-29 says. Why do you have anyone being resurrected before the day of judgment? Scripture never teaches such a thing.
Revelation 20 states 1000 years between a resurrection (first type of resurrection), and the GWT judgment. Even symbolically there is still time between them. Even a second is time between them, no? You have to have some time. If you reject John's 1000 years, what time frame would you commit to? Is 24 hours enough time to cover Satan's 42 months, and the two witnesses' 1260 days? When were these people in Revelation 20:4 beheaded in this 24 hour period? When did the vials get poured out in this 24 hour period? The Day of the Lord is still a day with the Lord. If it is not 24 hours, Peter says do not ignore the 1000 years, or do not be ignorant claiming they do not exist. Peter links this time to those scoffing the Second Coming. Scoffing the 1000 year reign of Christ is no different than scoffing about the Second Coming, no?
 
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Timtofly

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How can anything happen after the 7th seal when the 6th seal already indicates that the time of God's wrath has come and it has a figurative description of complete destruction that is about to occur at that time? It seems clear that the reason there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal is because Christ and His angels will have descended from heaven to deliver God's final wrath upon the earth. So, the trumpets can't follow that.

The seals, trumpets and vials are parallel to each other, not chronological. If you try to have the seals all happen first, then all the trumpets followed by all the vials then you run into major problems. The seventh trumpet signals the time of the judgment and the destruction of the wicked. It's parallel to Rev 19:11-21 as well as Rev 20:9-15. Your chronological method of interpreting the book of Revelation just doesn't work.

I wasn't familiar with the Bible translation you were quoting from here so I had to look it up. I see that you're quoting from the Complete Jewish Bible (CJB).

Remember when you told me in another post that Mark 13:27 saying that the angels gather the elect "from the uttermost part of the earth" (quoted from the KJV) was something the translators fraudulently added to support their modern theology? Guess what? Your CJB translation does the same thing. Observe:

Complete Jewish Bible
Mark 13:26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with tremendous power and glory. 27 He will send out his angels and gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

How is that any different than what this says:

King James Version
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Looks like you're either going to have to acknowledge that you were wrong about what you said to me earlier about this verse or you're going to have to find a different translation that says what you want this verse to say. Good luck with that.
I never said the CJB did not. It was only translated about 10 years ago. I was not defending the addition nor condemning it.

I "do not want" the verse to say anything, not my call.

How can 25% and 33%, one in the seals and one in the Trumpets, run in parallel as people being killed? It is plausible but not practical. We do not even know what the Thunders are. Do we find out after the end as in hindsight? Or are they revealed by a witness at the end of the 6th Trumpet? They are not set up to run parallel. Just because you want it to all happen in one day, does not mean they will.

If you are not a historist, how can you say they have all been completed and which ones? The ones that fit history? Do we just symbolize the symbolism and make stuff up as we go? No one knows the timing of the Second Coming so it should seem that no one will know the timing of any of it, and have no clue if they run parallel or even out of order. All of eschatology is just humans guessing in the dark. Why do some here defend their guessing to the point they just belittle the posting style of other posters, in a bullying fashion, like it is a civil war to the death?

I am just trying to defend the order John wrote it down in.
 
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Timtofly

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Also, I'm not saying the first resurrection happens when the second coming happens. That is a premil doctrine. What you disagreed with me about before is that Mark 13:24-27 is the same event as 1 Thess 4:13-17. That's why you try to remove the "from the ends of the earth" part from Mark 13:27 because with that part there, it agrees with 1 Thess 4:13-17.
Why do you need it to agree? You have been fine with quoting versions that leave it out?

Why are you killing yourself over this point? Then you seem to think it is a hill I want to climb. Just address what I did say about it.

Tearing down an imaginary strawman is getting old. Do I use the verses to deny my position and contradict myself? NO! I don't go around cherry picking translations to make points.

So you explain to me how this is NOT an addition. Why do many translations leave it out? No, I am not going to waste my time placing every translation in a post that leaves it out to make a point that it is left out and then try to figure out why.

What is the Second Coming all about if your favorite translation leaves out that phrase? You do place the first resurrection at the Second Coming. The first resurrection is of the body. There is no second resurrection of the spirit. The soul cannot die to make a third resurrection. The Second Coming is not about the resurrection of the body. That happened on the Cross and Jesus' own bodily resurrection as proof. Doubting Thomas is no longer doubting. Should he have had to wait for the Second Coming?

The Second Coming is not about the resurrection of the spirit. The glorification does happen then, and is the reason why those alive and remain are "caught up". I guess rapture is no longer politically correct.

The Second Coming is not about the resurrection of the soul. You at least agree souls are already in heaven.

The only reason for the Second Coming is the last half of a 7 year period of Christ carrying out a ministry on earth. It will not even last 3.5 years because Matthew claims these days will be shortened. However not to the point it is only 24 hours. Sorry.

Why is there another earthly ministry? Was the original one supposed to last 7 years, but cut short because of the religious leaders of the day? Was it because of Daniel's prophecy? Was it God's hidden plan from before creation?

Why does Revelation not specifically address any of these points but only points out judgment and wrath? When Resurrection is finally "a thing", current persuasive thought claims Revelation 20 is a fluke? So many are caught up in the timing, they have gone mad with knowledge that is just plain nonsensical.

Guess what, they can even prove it with many verses of the Bible, even if taken out of context and applied contrary to context. Who would have ever thought that possible?

Wait there is that one joke that states: A person wanted to know God's will so they randomly opened the Bible and their finger landed on the verse that says, Judas went out and hung himself. Really? They must be starting to doubt God, so once a again a random verse and the finger lands on "go and do thou likewise". What are the odds of fortune telling God's Word?

Taking verses out of context and applying them contrary to context just to make a point is not much better. Just not as randomn and a lot more effort than to figure out a silly joke totally out of context and contrary to context.

There is context in an event about many prophets and their wisdom as opposed to one who always seemed to get the truth right, and a random act in the end made many a liar that day. 1 Kings 22. If the shoe fits about being a false spirit in the voice of the many, and a single voice speaking the truth, who is on God's side? Did God give them victory that day? Does God always tell us what we want to hear?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Why do you need it to agree? You have been fine with quoting versions that leave it out?
Which translations leave the "from the earth" part out of Mark 13:27? I'm not aware of any that do. So, why do you try to claim that it's not supposed to be there?

Why are you killing yourself over this point? Then you seem to think it is a hill I want to climb. Just address what I did say about it.
Because you are being dishonest about that verse. There are no translations that leave the "from the ends of the earth" out of Mark 13:27. Do you understand that? So, why are you trying to say it shouldn't be there?

So you explain to me how this is NOT an addition. Why do many translations leave it out? No, I am not going to waste my time placing every translation in a post that leaves it out to make a point that it is left out and then try to figure out why.
Just name one translation that leaves it out. Can you do that? I'm not aware of even one that does.

What is the Second Coming all about if your favorite translation leaves out that phrase? You do place the first resurrection at the Second Coming.
No, I don't. I've said many times that the first resurrection is Christ's resurrection itself and that happened at His first coming. We spiritually have part in His resurrection when we're born again/saved. You continue to not have a clue about what I believe for whatever reason. Don't try to criticize what I believe when you clearly don't even know what I believe.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Revelation 20 states 1000 years between a resurrection (first type of resurrection), and the GWT judgment. Even symbolically there is still time between them. Even a second is time between them, no? You have to have some time. If you reject John's 1000 years, what time frame would you commit to? Is 24 hours enough time to cover Satan's 42 months, and the two witnesses' 1260 days? When were these people in Revelation 20:4 beheaded in this 24 hour period? When did the vials get poured out in this 24 hour period? The Day of the Lord is still a day with the Lord. If it is not 24 hours, Peter says do not ignore the 1000 years, or do not be ignorant claiming they do not exist. Peter links this time to those scoffing the Second Coming. Scoffing the 1000 year reign of Christ is no different than scoffing about the Second Coming, no?
Dude, stop slandering me or I will report you. I'll give you this one warning. I do not ignore the 1000 years, I do not say that the 1000 years doesn't exist and I don't scoff at the 1000 years. I interpret the timing of it differently than you do and I believe it's figurative rather than literal. Even though I believe it's figurative, I do believe it represents a real period of time, but I believe it began at Christ's first coming rather than at His second coming.
 
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Douggg

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Even though I believe it's figurative, I do believe it represents a real period of time, but I believe it began at Christ's first coming rather than at His second coming.
Which coming is Jesus in Revelation 19:11-21?
 
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Which coming is Jesus in Revelation 19:11-21?
Second coming, obviously. The book of Revelation contains several recapitulations or parallel sections.

For example, the time of the final wrath of God is said to arrive after the sixth seal is opened. The time that the wicked are destroyed and judged and that believers are rewarded occurs at the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15-18). Rev 16:12-21, Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:7-9 are all parallel to each other and described the same event, just in a bit different ways.
 
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