Yeshua HaDerekh
Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
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- Thread starter HARK!
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Let's take a good look at who he was writing to.
(CLV) Ro 1:1
Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, a called apostle, severed for the evangel of God
A slave of Messiah, not the flesh, a slave to his words, which are his Father's words. We can find those in the Torah. It was the same word that you heard from the beginning. Severed for the gospel of YHWH. The gospel was given to Moses. See Hebrews 3:15-4:7
(CLV) Ro 1:2
(which He promises before through His prophets in the holy scriptures),
Bear in mind that when Paul wrote this; there were no scriptures other than the TaNaK.
(CLV) Ro 1:3
concerning His Son (Who comes of the seed of David according to the flesh,
(CLV) Ro 1:4
Who is designated Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead), Jesus Christ, our Lord,
(CLV) Ro 1:5
through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,
Faith Obedience. Obedience. Obedience. Paul makes it clear the we (the Saints of Rome?) obtained grace for obedience. That is the purpose for the grace. It's to bring us to obedience. The message has been the same since the garden. YHWH wants our obedience.
(CLV) Ro 1:6
among whom are you also, the called of Jesus Christ:
(CLV) Ro 1:7
to all who are in Rome, beloved by God, called saints: Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
This letter was written to the Saints! You are reading their mail.
Now you're getting it.
1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
I thought that we had covered this already. Abraham came to faith obedience in uncircumcision. Then he sealed that faith, in obedience to YHWH, through circumcision. If we reject YHWH's word in disobedience however, that outward sign means nothing. We are to circumcise our hearts from sin (transgression of YHWH's Torah).
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See my reply.
Now you should know that scripture clearly tells us that circumcision seals our faith in Obedience to YHWH's Torah.
If that wasn't already made clear by understanding the story of Abraham; Paul spells it out for us.
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I asked you if you could show me that in scripture. You didn't.
Are you dodging my request with a strawman argument and a red herring? That isn't productive. I would ask that we sincerely work together to seek the truth, rather than use tactics to win a fruitless debate. YHWH's word is truth.
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You assert that Paul just wrestled Timothy to the ground, and broke out the cutlery set, against his will? Really?
If that were the case; that circumcision would mean something; but it wouldn't be good for anyone.
Paul already told us that circumcision sealed Abraham's faith.
Perhaps a second witness will give us more insight. James, brother of Yahshua was one of three of Yahshua's inner circle of apostles who knew things about Yahshua that the others didn't know. James probably knew Yahshua better than anyone on earth.
Here is what he says of Abraham as he teaches us of faithfulness to YHWH.
(CLV) Ja 2:18
But someone will be declaring, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from the works and I shall be showing you my faith by my works.
(CLV) Ja 2:19
You are believing that God is one. Ideally are you doing. The demons also are believing and are shuddering.
(CLV) Ja 2:20
Now are you wanting to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is dead?
(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?
(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.
(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.
You see, obedience to YHWH is the fruit of faith. You will know them by their fruit; and don't forget, Paul told us that grace is for faith-obedience.
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The point is that no one can keep the entire law.
As Peter said in the Council of Jerusalem, "why burden the Gentiles with something that we ourselves have not been able to do?", Acts 15:10
No, circumcision was the sign of the Covenant God had made with him, Genesis 17:11 - Abraham had a physical reminder of God's promise to him.
What is the sign of the New Covenant that God makes with us? Clue: Matthew 26:28.
Seems you are trying to say that because we are descendants of Abraham, and because the words that were said about him are quoted in the NT too, then clearly we have to obey the covenant that God made with him.
But were are children of God, 1 John 1:12, made righteous through Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:21, and Paul even said that the circumcision that matters is circumcision of the heart. God has made a NEW covenant through Christ.
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(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.
(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.
(CLV) Jb 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz. Job was his name. This man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and keeping away from evil.
(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.
What do you suppose Yahshua meant when he said "go and sin (that's transgress the Torah) NO more?"
Apparently you didn't follow my link to my Circumcision thread. That topic was covered in detail there.
Your paraphrase does not reflect what scripture actually says.
(CLV) Ac 15:10
Why, then, are you now trying God, by placing a yoke on on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we are strong enough to bear?
Are you suggesting even for a moment that Peter wasn't able to bear his circumcision?
That would be a gross misunderstanding of what was being expressed. Again, faith preceded obedience with Abraham.
These unbelievers were attempting to put the cart before the horse. They didn't understand the Torah. They didn't follow it.
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Surely you aren't suggesting that the covenant of Abraham is null and void?
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Does that covenant not extend to the children of Abraham?
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Even though the law is spiritual and I have seen Jews and whatnot who understand this... Such persons tend to still follow the outward appearance of the law. Action in this world is a kind of symbolic representation of spiritual realities. That's why religions have so many different things that they do.
the letter of the law is extremely important as a vessel. To get rid of it would be like to rip off my skin.
You can do what you want and I'll do what I want. mostly I'm concerned with God and I can't relate to human beings. God judges me and God will judge you. I prefer more than one rest day and I certainly keep the Sabbath when I'm sane but I'm not here to argue over unknown languages that I don't comprehend.
The greater sin would be to keep the sabbath like a hypocrite and not keep the Sabbath like Jesus did. if you don't know how Jesus kept the Sabbath then you should stop messing around and get to know how he fulfilled the law. If you never care about these things then you are not following the law at all, but you pretend that you do. And that makes me mad.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Faith through love, a truly spiritual state of being in communion with God.
the letter of the law is extremely important as a vessel. To get rid of it would be like to rip off my skin.
You can do what you want and I'll do what I want. mostly I'm concerned with God and I can't relate to human beings. God judges me and God will judge you. I prefer more than one rest day and I certainly keep the Sabbath when I'm sane but I'm not here to argue over unknown languages that I don't comprehend.
The greater sin would be to keep the sabbath like a hypocrite and not keep the Sabbath like Jesus did. if you don't know how Jesus kept the Sabbath then you should stop messing around and get to know how he fulfilled the law. If you never care about these things then you are not following the law at all, but you pretend that you do. And that makes me mad.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Faith through love, a truly spiritual state of being in communion with God.
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No it doesn't, and no he doesn't.
Paul said, a number of times, that circumcision is nothing; and condemned those who taught that it was necessary for salvation.
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Romans 1:1-7 (correctly translated)...
"From Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart [not severed, i.e., chopped off] for the gospel of God. This gospel he promised beforehand [past tense] through his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son who was [imperfect tense] a descendant of David [not the strange "comes of the seed" (present tense of a past event] with reference to the flesh, who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord. Through him we have received grace and our apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith [not "faith-obedience; there is no such (made-up) English term] among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name. You also are among them, called to belong to Jesus Christ. To all those loved by God in Rome, called to be saints [not called saints]: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ!" NET Bible 2.1
One can prove any doctrine by re-interpreting the work of centuries of excellent Biblical translation scholarship, but that doesn't mean it's accurate.
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let's not leave off the end of the sentence.
"but the keeping of the commandments of God."
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Who said chopped off?
STRONGS NT 873: ἀφορίζω
ἀφορίζω; imperfect ἀφώριζον; Attic future ἀφοριῶ Matthew 25:32 (T WH ἀφορίσω); Matt 13:49, [Winers Grammar, § 13, the passage cited; Buttmann, 37 (32)]; 1 aorist ἀφώρισα; passive, perfect participle ἀφωρισμένος; 1 aorist imperative ἀφορίσθητε; (ὁρίζω to make a ὅρος or boundary); to mark off from (ἀπό) others by boundaries, to limit, to separate: ἑαυτόν, from others, Galatians 2:12; τοὺς μαθητάς, from those unwilling to obey the gospel, Acts 19:9; ἐκ μέσου τινῶν, Matthew 13:49; ἀπό τινος, Matthew 25:32. Passive in a reflexive sense: 2 Corinthians 6:17. absolutely: in a bad sense, to exclude as disreputable, Luke 6:22; in a good sense, τινὰ εἴς τι, to appoint, set apart, one for some
sever
[ sev-er ]
SEE SYNONYMS FOR sever
verb (used with object)
to separate (a part) from the whole, as by cutting or the like.
to divide into parts, especially forcibly; cleave.
to break off or dissolve (ties, relations, etc.).
Law. to divide into parts; disunite (an estate, titles of a statute, etc.).
to distinguish; discriminate between.
Sort of like straining gnats.
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The correct translation of Scripture into English is not "straining gnats". The incorrect translation of Scripture into English is swallowing a camel!
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Obedience of faith is obedience. What kind of obedience? Faith obedience.
The Hebrew word for faith can be better described as faithfulness. The Hebrew mindset is concrete; where as the synchronistic Greek mindset speaks in abstract terms, outside of the realm of perception.
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The Hebrew word for faith is אמונה (emunah - Strong's #530) and is an action oriented word meaning "support". This is important because the Western concept of faith places the action on the one you have faith in, such as "faith in God". But, the Hebrew word אמונה places the action on the one who "supports God". It is not a knowing that God will act, but rather I will do what I can to support God.
BTW, if you're going to use a word such as "synchronistic" you should spell it correctly. 8^)
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I liked this part of the video:
He quotes Paul.
(CLV) Ro 10:6
Yet the righteousness of faith is saying thus: You may not be saying in your heart, Who will be ascending into heaven?—that is, to be leading Christ down—
Paul is quoting the Torah to help us to understand faith.
(CLV) Dt 30:11
For this instruction that I am enjoining on you today, it is neither too difficult for you, nor is it too far off.
Not too difficult. That's encouraging!
(CLV) Dt 30:12
It is neither in the heavens for you to say: Who shall ascend to the heavens for us and take it for us and announce it to us that we may do it?
Do it?
(CLV) Dt 30:13
Nor is it across the sea for you to say: Who shall cross across the sea for us and take it for us and announce it to us that we may do it?
Do it? Do what?
(CLV) Dt 30:14
For the word is exceedingly near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to do it.
Oh, I see, do the word of YHWH.
(CLV) Dt 30:15
See! I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
But Paul already made this crystal clear earlier in the same letter.
(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
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