The transition is on

FireDragon76 · Nov 25, 2020

zippy2006 said:
No, you're not correct. Blue laws, the pledge of allegiance in schools, and Supreme Court precedent in cases like Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States and Zorach v. Clauson all attest to the contrary. The normative approach to belief in God by the state has consistently been upheld by U.S. law. To quote judge David Bauman in a lower court ruling,

"As a matter of historical tradition, the words 'under God' can no more be expunged from the national consciousness than the words 'In God We Trust' from every coin in the land, than the words 'so help me God' from every presidential oath since 1789, or than the prayer that has opened every congressional session of legislative business since 1787."

And it baffles me how Americans think that withstands the plain reading of the 1st Ammendment. "God" is a sectarian religious concept.

MIDutch · Nov 25, 2020

MIDutch said:
Also, there are lots of gods. No where, that I am aware of, does it specify which god "In God We Trust" refers to.

zippy2006 said:
Yes, that's right.

Cool. Then I'd like it to be Thor. He's always been my favorite god.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Nov 25, 2020

hedrick said:
First on CNN: GSA tells Biden that transition can formally begin - CNNPolitics

What! I thought we were supposed to expect the Navy Seals escorting Trump out of the oval office kicking and screaming like a child. Please don't tell me the MSM was fear mongering and causing a stirr.

timothyu · Nov 25, 2020

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) said:
Please don't tell me the MSM was fear mongering and causing a stirr.

Who would watch them otherwise? Those talking heads don't get paid a million a year for nothing.

zippy2006 · Nov 25, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
And it baffles me how Americans think that withstands the plain reading of the 1st Ammendment. "God" is a sectarian religious concept.

I don't think God is a sectarian concept, but it certainly wasn't in the time and place that the first amendment was written.

FireDragon76 · Nov 25, 2020

zippy2006 said:
I don't think God is a sectarian concept, but it certainly wasn't in the time and place that the first amendment was written.

Of course it is sectarian since it's not a concept shared by all religions; a supreme creator and "lawgiver".

zippy2006 · Nov 25, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Of course it is sectarian since it's not a concept shared by all religions; a supreme creator and "lawgiver".

Something is not "sectarian" by the mere fact of not being shared by all. For example:

Sect: a religious group that has separated from a larger religion and is considered to have extreme or unusual beliefs or customs (Cambridge Dictionary)

If we are using the true definition of "sectarian" then I think your original argument is valid: religious sects should not receive government favoritism. Yet it is not sound: "God" is not a sectarian concept. Belief in God does not make one part of a sect, and it surely didn't in the 19th century.

Speedwell · Nov 25, 2020

zippy2006 said:
Something is not "sectarian" by the mere fact of not being shared by all. For example:

Sect: a religious group that has separated from a larger religion and is considered to have extreme or unusual beliefs or customs (Cambridge Dictionary)

If we are using the true definition of "sectarian" then I think your original argument is valid: religious sects should not receive government favoritism. Yet it is not sound: "God" is not a sectarian concept. Belief in God does not make one part of a sect, and it surely didn't in the 19th century.

. For all practical purposes it did. During the 19th century Roman Catholics and other Traditional Christians were subject to serious discrimination and sometimes even violence at the hands of Evangelical Protestants, who enjoyed then an unwarranted cultural hegemony. Even today, the Evangelical Right thinks they own the God on our money and in our motto and are the only real Christians, the only real Americans and the only true patriots.

timothyu · Nov 25, 2020

Speedwell said:
Even today, the Evangelical Right thinks they own the God on our money and in our motto and are the only real Christians, the only real Americans and the only true patriots.

You mean they didn't inherit the title of the chosen people? I thought that came with war reparations after WWII

FireDragon76 · Nov 26, 2020

zippy2006 said:
Something is not "sectarian" by the mere fact of not being shared by all. For example:

Sect: a religious group that has separated from a larger religion and is considered to have extreme or unusual beliefs or customs (Cambridge Dictionary)

If we are using the true definition of "sectarian" then I think your original argument is valid: religious sects should not receive government favoritism. Yet it is not sound: "God" is not a sectarian concept. Belief in God does not make one part of a sect, and it surely didn't in the 19th century.

It effectively establishes religion, since the concept of God is not shared by all religions. That means the State privileges some types of religious belief over others.

timothyu · Nov 26, 2020

zippy2006 said:
Belief in God does not make one part of a sect, and it surely didn't in the 19th century.

True but who was the God of the Founding Masonic Fathers? They have never connected their God to Christianity, but do have an old school connection to the building of the first temple, and the 10 commandments were part of their founding. How Jefferson cut out the religion builders from his bible leaving only the words of Jesus might be a clue to their mindset and thoughts on the religion builders who created a religion in their own image using God to justify their actions. A religion that had become a worldly power not unlike the one the Founders were trying to escape.

FireDragon76 · Nov 26, 2020

timothyu said:
True but who was the God of the Founding Masonic Fathers? They have never connected their God to Christianity, but do have an old school connection to the building of the first temple, and the 10 commandments were part of their founding. How Jefferson cut out the religion builders from his bible leaving only the words of Jesus might be a clue to their mindset and thoughts on the religion builders who created a religion in their own image using God as a figurehead. A religion that had become a worldly power not unlike the one the Founders were trying to escape.

Many were Deists, with the mistaken belief that stripped-down monotheism was "natural" to humanity.

timothyu · Nov 26, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Many were Deists, with the mistaken belief that stripped-down monotheism was "natural" to humanity.

Yet they were right about the religion builders.

FireDragon76 · Nov 26, 2020

timothyu said:
Yet they were right about the religion builders.

Deists were wrong because their beliefs were the result of a particular Christian patrimony. Other cultures do not necessarily have the notion of a supreme creator and judge in one individual.

timothyu · Nov 26, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Other cultures do not necessarily have the notion of a supreme creator and judge in one individual.

The point is that although any religion was allowed to exist none would be allowed to rule or to put a ruler in the place of power, a tradition of the Church going back to soon after Constantine. Any religion without a god certainly was not an identifiable part of their consideration nor seen as worthy of calling it un-politically correct, as their concern was not a god but religion itself.

No doubt the American Revolution influenced the French Revolution. The Church was called a King maker in those days, because they had taken it upon themselves to mirror God (as the Adversary does) and like in the days of the Prophets, to decide who would be King and how they would rule. It was an offshoot of the notion that Christians were to follow the governments of God, but these faux Christians established kings who represented them as offshoots and protectors of their own worldly governance.

You will notice , although we have been distracted to think of only guillotining royalty or Marie Antionette and her cake, that the Church was also executed and driven out of France because it would be useless to take out a king just to have the Church establish another one. The Church was the main body which the revolution was against, the monarchy second. They followed the same concept as the Founding Fathers in keeping religion, not God, out of power.

zippy2006 · Nov 28, 2020

Speedwell said:
. For all practical purposes it did. During the 19th century Roman Catholics and other Traditional Christians were subject to serious discrimination and sometimes even violence at the hands of Evangelical Protestants, who enjoyed then an unwarranted cultural hegemony. Even today, the Evangelical Right thinks they own the God on our money and in our motto and are the only real Christians, the only real Americans and the only true patriots.

How in the world do you think this shows that belief in God is sectarian? You gave an example of some people who believe in God persecuting other people who believe in God. It is logically impossible for such an example to prove that belief in God is sectarian. :sigh:

(Interdenominational persecution is a problem, and it is not based on mere belief in God. For the government to specifically favor Evangelicalism would run up against the establishment clause, but that's not what we're talking about.)

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN · Nov 29, 2020

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) said:
What! I thought we were supposed to expect the Navy Seals escorting Trump out of the oval office kicking and screaming like a child. Please don't tell me the MSM was fear mongering and causing a stirr.

MSM isn't the problem . It's Trump actions are the problem. And Trump alone, that makes people believe he's going to be dragged out.

timothyu · Nov 29, 2020

That's it! People fear the man because they think he is going to make them do their homework, do their chores and perhaps take away their allowance if they misbehave.

The transition is on

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