The rich man

Tellyontellyon

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There is a story that Jesus tells about a rich man and a beggar called Lazarus.
Lazarus dies and is taken up by angels to be with Abraham, but the rich man dies and goes to Hades...
The questions for me are: where is Abraham, where is Hades, and how is the rich man able to SEE Lazarus and talk to Abraham?
Aren't the dead supposed to be sleeping? What else are the dead capable of seeing and hearing?
 
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jacks

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Don't let it keep you up at night. Since you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God let alone in a literal interpretation of the Bible, why the question? The greater lesson of this parable is that the rich shouldn't ignore the needs of the poor.
 
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public hermit

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Since you didn't want to answer the question... Why post?

It's metaphorical. The take away is not the particulars of the afterlife, but the way we treat those in need and the use of the resources that come into our possession. Jacks is correct.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, you discovered the answers to all your questions as presented in the OP, and yet did not take away the lesson of giving to those in need, and live your own life accordingly. The answers you discovered would be of no benefit to you.
 
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jacks

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Since you didn't want to answer the question... Why post?

You're right I could have been kinder in my response. It's just that we get so many questions from non Christians about literal interpretations of the Bible. If a literal interpretation of a passage truly is a stumbling block for you then I apologize. Please just keep in mind that many Christians look to the Bible for lessons on how to live life and how to become closer to God and don't treat it like a scientific text book. Again I'm sorry if I made light of a serious question.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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There is a story that Jesus tells about a rich man and a beggar called Lazarus.
Lazarus dies and is taken up by angels to be with Abraham, but the rich man dies and goes to Hades...
The questions for me are: where is Abraham, where is Hades, and how is the rich man able to SEE Lazarus and talk to Abraham?
Aren't the dead supposed to be sleeping? What else are the dead capable of seeing and hearing?

A few points

1)This is widely regarded as a parable in Christianity...

One clue I think is the rich man would probably have a name instead of having no name so he can be a stand in for everybody who seeks temporal happiness with no thought of the afterlife. Lazarus's name means "God has helped" which is a pretty good name for a person of Faith to have. And maybe their was some deliberate use of that name because of the other Lazarus incident, to make it into an iconic like symbol, or perhaps some divine foreshadowing.


2) If this is based on an actual vision or revelation of the spirit world then the rules of our universe don't exactly apply to spirit being etc.
 
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Mark Quayle

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There is a story that Jesus tells about a rich man and a beggar called Lazarus.
Lazarus dies and is taken up by angels to be with Abraham, but the rich man dies and goes to Hades...
The questions for me are: where is Abraham, where is Hades, and how is the rich man able to SEE Lazarus and talk to Abraham?
Aren't the dead supposed to be sleeping? What else are the dead capable of seeing and hearing?
It is, after all, a story. Jesus told many such, not as fact but for the lesson learned. In such stories, as in modern times, some items, maybe most, are drawn from common concepts, and not so much from actualities.

In this one, there are several points he makes --among them not only the fact that social status means nothing after death, but the ironic one --that even if someone was to come back from the dead to report the facts and urge repentance, they would not believe him.
 
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Kris Jordan

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There is a story that Jesus tells about a rich man and a beggar called Lazarus.
Lazarus dies and is taken up by angels to be with Abraham, but the rich man dies and goes to Hades...
The questions for me are: where is Abraham, where is Hades, and how is the rich man able to SEE Lazarus and talk to Abraham?
Aren't the dead supposed to be sleeping? What else are the dead capable of seeing and hearing?

Hi Tellyontellyon,

Great questions!

During the three days Jesus’ body was in the grave, He descended to the “Paradise” side of Hell/Hades, also known as Abraham’s Bosom, to proclaim His victory over sin and death. Before His death on the cross, nobody was allowed directly into heaven because their sins had not yet been atoned. Therefore, all those who died in faith prior to the cross, trusting the coming Messiah (Jesus Christ) to cleanse them, went to the Paradise side of Hell/Hades to await His birth and death in comfort and peace. This is where Abraham was (at that point). Those who died not trusting God for the coming Messiah went to the suffering side of Hell/Hades to await God’s final judgment for their sins.

After Jesus took believers out of Paradise and into heaven, the “Paradise/comfort” compartment of Hell/Hades has remained empty to this day. However, the suffering compartment of Hell/Hades is holding all unbelievers for judgment while continuing their punishment for sin. Once judged, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second and final death.

So, to answer your specific questions:

1. Abraham is in heaven with God now, but was in Paradise from his death until Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

2. The exact location of Hades is unknown since the Bible does not give us that specific information. But wherever it is, you definitely do not want to end up there.

3. The Bible says in Luke 16:19-31 that when the rich man entered Hades, there was a great chasm which separated the comfort side from the suffering side (verse 26: "And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.")

4. The soul of every human being is eternal, therefore, each person lives on after dying physically on the earth. The location where each one spends eternity — heaven or hell (followed by the Lake of Fire) — depends solely upon whether or not they placed their faith in Jesus for their salvation while on the earth. Death seals their decision and fate, so there are no second chances afterward.

All those who chose to trust Jesus as their Savior will immediately enter heaven upon their death, while their physical bodies return to the “dust of the earth.” At the rapture, their bodies will be resurrected as spiritual, imperishable, and glorified ones that bear the likeness of Jesus. They will never again be subject to sin, sickness, pain, or death. Simultaneously, their souls will be reunited with their newly transformed bodies, and they will remain in their glorified state with God forever.

All those who chose to reject Jesus and His gift of salvation will instantly enter hell upon their death, while their physical bodies return to the “dust of the earth” to await the resurrection. At the end of all things, their bodies will be raised and reunited with their souls. Immediately afterward, they will be judged by God for their sins at the great white throne judgment. Subsequently, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, where they will serve out their eternal sentence in conscious torment and suffering — having rejected the only means for their redemption.

5. The dead who are in hell are in a place of suffering, torment, anguish, outer darkness, and unquenchable fire. What they physically see is unclear, being in darkness with unquenchable fire. The dead who are in heaven see the full glory of God and are in a place of complete and total perfection. Heaven is free from all sin, sickness, pain, disease, and death and is filled with God's glory and majesty.

Hope that helps bring some clarity to your questions. :)
 
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Mark Quayle

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During the three days Jesus’ body was in the grave, He descended to the “Paradise” side of Hell/Hades
How did he pay the penalty for our sins, if he was on the good side?
 
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There is a story that Jesus tells about a rich man and a beggar called Lazarus.
Lazarus dies and is taken up by angels to be with Abraham, but the rich man dies and goes to Hades...
The questions for me are: where is Abraham, where is Hades, and how is the rich man able to SEE Lazarus and talk to Abraham?
Aren't the dead supposed to be sleeping? What else are the dead capable of seeing and hearing?

cuz you read Angels and in your corrupted mind by movies and TV think that Angels must taken him up to heaven right? wrong

They both went below earth surface to Hades , it had 2 parts one for the damned and one for the saved and between them there is gulf so they cannot cross but can talk.


To be honest im surprised nobody ( from Christians) just said such easy thing to describe and they try to make some random explanations or try to say its some fake story lol
 
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Monksailor

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Don't let it keep you up at night. Since you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God let alone in a literal interpretation of the Bible, why the question? The greater lesson of this parable is that the rich shouldn't ignore the needs of the poor.
That may be one point but it is not a socioeconomic parable as much as one of how the man with wealth allowed his heart to love his wealth more than God and his fellow man; no different than a poor man loving his richness of human relationships and not sharing such with a wealthy man or a gifted musician withholding God's blessing from others or ..... The parable is about a person allowing something to become so important to them that they have no time or care to focus upon God or how God wanted them to live. In the concluding exchange he cries out to God from Hades for his brothers to be enlightened supernaturally of such but God responds to him, “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” This parable's entry situation of the rich man and Lazarus' relationship is akin to the "Good Samaritan" where we have a traveler attacked and left for dead encountered by three passer-by's. It is NOT the details of the players and the situation involved in the stories nearly as much as a Spiritual point Jesus is trying to convey.

Each and EVERY one of us, regardless of our economic standing or anything else, are capable of being in the same position of the "Rich man" in this parable. There is an exhaustive amount of reasons why one ignores or just doesn't notice and serve the needs of another in their life for whom they should.

The parable of "The God Samaritan" points this out succinctly. A holy priest and a lawyer/scribe were the "bad" people in that parable Christ offered to a lawyer who sought to justify himself in formulating a legalistic loop hole as to who was or wasn't his obligated neighbor. Most forget the setting and purpose of that parable:"But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”" Luke 10:29 ESV. It wasn't one to show us how to be a good person in any way nearly as much as it was to dismiss one's predisposition to exercise their own biases in determining who was their obligated neighbor which is exactly the reason Jesus responded with that parable to the lawyer. Jesus' conclusive query to the lawyer in this parable clearly shows this: "Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” Luke 10:36 ESV Yet, most think that this is a parable whose main focus is about being a good person or being merciful.
 
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ViaCrucis

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There is a story that Jesus tells about a rich man and a beggar called Lazarus.
Lazarus dies and is taken up by angels to be with Abraham, but the rich man dies and goes to Hades...
The questions for me are: where is Abraham, where is Hades, and how is the rich man able to SEE Lazarus and talk to Abraham?
Aren't the dead supposed to be sleeping? What else are the dead capable of seeing and hearing?

Historically this is recognized as one of Jesus' parables. So attempting to use it as a way to literally describe the state of death is missing the point. Though the description of Abraham's bosom (i.e. Paradise) and Gehenna is applying the standard views of Jesus' time of the divisions in She'ol/Hades between the abode of the righteous dead and the abode of the wicked dead. That is, it is descriptive of the two sides of the "place" of death, but it is not about literal depictions of these as literal locations.

Edited to add: It'd be like telling a story about a person in heaven on clouds and a person in a fiery chasm called hell, in order to illustrate a point. It doesn't mean there's a literal place called "heaven" where souls strum harps on fluffy clouds all day, or a literal place called "hell" that is a fiery chasm with demons prodding people with pitchforks, but it uses that imagery--which is common in the popular imagination today--to make a point.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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How did he pay the penalty for our sins, if he was on the good side?

The Harrowing of Hell has nothing to do with Jesus' passion, but about His victory over death. When we confess that He "descended into hell" we are speaking of His descent to the abode of the dead, She'ol/Hades, not to an experience of suffering. In the original Latin of the Apostles' Creed it reads "descendit ad inferos", literally "descended into the lower regions", i.e. the netherworld, the place of the dead.

Which is why Christian iconography has always depicted Him as trampling down the gates of Hades, with the devil and death bound and crushed underneath His feet, as He takes hold of Adam and Eve and pulls them out of their sarcophagi, with the train of Old Testament saints on His right and left.

resurrection-anastasis02.jpg


-CryptoLutheran
 
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How did he pay the penalty for our sins, if he was on the good side?

Hi Mark,

As God manifested in the flesh, Jesus Christ lived a sinless life of obedience to the Father while on earth. He did this on behalf of all sinners, which satisfied God’s righteous requirements for holy living. At the appointed time of His death, Jesus willingly took the sins of the entire world upon Himself, suffered the punishment for each of them, and died a substitutionary death in every sinful person’s place. When He breathed His last breath, He proclaimed, “it is finished,” signifying God’s acceptance of His perfect sacrifice for sins, once for all.

During the three days Jesus’ body was in the grave, He descended to the “Paradise” side of hell, also known as Abraham’s Bosom, to proclaim His victory over sin and death. Before His death on the cross, nobody was allowed into heaven because their sins had not yet been atoned. Therefore, all those who died in faith prior to the cross, trusting the coming Messiah (Jesus) to cleanse them, went to the Paradise side of hell to await His birth and death in comfort and peace. Those who died not trusting God for the coming Messiah went to the suffering side of hell to await God’s final judgment for their sins.

After Jesus took believers out of Paradise and into heaven, the “comfort” compartment of hell has remained empty to this day. However, the suffering compartment of hell is holding all unbelievers for judgment while continuing their punishment for sin. Once judged, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second and final death.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The Harrowing of Hell has nothing to do with Jesus' passion, but about His victory over death. When we confess that He "descended into hell" we are speaking of His descent to the abode of the dead, She'ol/Hades, not to an experience of suffering. In the original Latin of the Apostles' Creed it reads "descendit ad inferos", literally "descended into the lower regions", i.e. the netherworld, the place of the dead.

Which is why Christian iconography has always depicted Him as trampling down the gates of Hades, with the devil and death bound and crushed underneath His feet, as He takes hold of Adam and Eve and pulls them out of their sarcophagi, with the train of Old Testament saints on His right and left.

resurrection-anastasis02.jpg


-CryptoLutheran
So you are saying the mere fact of his physical death is payment for the sins of the Redeemed? After all, some have suffered more physically before dying than he did, so it wasn't the physical suffering. Or is there more to it than simple physical death. Explain.
 
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Mark Quayle

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There is a story that Jesus tells about a rich man and a beggar called Lazarus.
Lazarus dies and is taken up by angels to be with Abraham, but the rich man dies and goes to Hades...
The questions for me are: where is Abraham, where is Hades, and how is the rich man able to SEE Lazarus and talk to Abraham?
Aren't the dead supposed to be sleeping? What else are the dead capable of seeing and hearing?
You might find it interesting to study how timeless God sees things, and how such things must be explained to time-dependent humans. It should answer your questions.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So you are saying the mere fact of his physical death is payment for the sins of the Redeemed? After all, some have suffered more physically before dying than he did, so it wasn't the physical suffering. Or is there more to it than simple physical death. Explain.

It's not about how much He suffered, but that He suffered at all. God became man, and in dying died the death of all men; God has fully participated in our humanity, even in death. Then in rising destroys the chains of death.

To quote an ancient hymn:

"Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And to those in the tombs,
Bestowing life.
"

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Mark Quayle

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As God manifested in the flesh, Jesus Christ lived a sinless life of obedience to the Father while on earth. He did this on behalf of all sinners, which satisfied God’s righteous requirements for holy living. At the appointed time of His death, Jesus willingly took the sins of the entire world upon Himself, suffered the punishment for each of them,
What is that punishment, except for the eternal condemnation? Mere cessation of this physical life?
When He breathed His last breath, He proclaimed, “it is finished,” signifying God’s acceptance of His perfect sacrifice for sins, once for all.
Agreed, except your premise depends on a time passage --in other words that "it is finished" meant that there was no need for him to suffer punishment in hell/ hot lake and mere death was enough. I believe "it is finished" meant he had thus done with the precise punishment we would have had to undergo. Eternal. But Christ is God, and his eternal punishment in our place cannot keep him. Time in the matter is irrelevant. Cause is everything.
 
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It's not about how much He suffered, but that He suffered at all. God became man, and in dying died the death of all men; God has fully participated in our humanity, even in death. Then in rising destroys the chains of death.

To quote an ancient hymn:

"Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And to those in the tombs,
Bestowing life.
"

-CryptoLutheran
So where is the eternal punishment in hell/LOF? If those unredeemed must pay their own there, why does he not have to do so when taking the multiple punishments of the Elect?
 
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