Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

claninja · Nov 24, 2020

Davy said:
Much of that is confusion against Apostle Paul's Message. Apostle Paul NEVER pointed to the resurrection being one of FLESH.

1 Cor 15:42-51
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV

2 Cor 5:1-8
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV

The idea that the resurrection body is to another flesh body is an old tradition of the Jews. They are the ones who cannot seem to understand the different operations between this flesh world and that of the world to come of the heavenly.

I absolutely agree that the resurrection is from a natural body to a spiritual body

1 corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

My main argument was that being baptized into Christ's death and raised with Him to walk in the newness of life/being raised from death in our trespasses/being born again guarantees this future resurrection from a natural body to a spiritual body.

Therefore, those are born again/raised from being dead in sin/baptized in Christ's death and raised to walk in newness of life, over come the world through their faith in Christ and can never be hurt by the 2nd death.

claninja · Nov 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Adam's death has come to all men

Agreed, as evidenced by scripture:

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The last Adam's resurrection from the dead comes to us through spiritual birth from above

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Jesus' resurrection from the dead comes to us from Spiritual birth from above? That doesn't make sense, nor is there any verse that states this.

Unless you mean what Peter states, that we are caused to be born again by the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

In other words, it is because of Christ's death and resurrection that we are able to be born again.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The prodigal son parable does not change the facts of scripture: the prodigal son parable does not mean (not even for one second) that the prodigal son had been spiritually alive, had died spiritually, and was "resurrected from the dead spiritually". The prodigal son needs to be born of the Spirit from above like all people who are born of the flesh into Adam & into Adam's death.

I agree that the prodigal son was never "spiritually alive" prior to being lost. Jesus, nor the parable, state that.

Please bare in mind that The parable of the prodigal son follows to parables of 2 other things being lost and found: 1.) the lost sheep and 2.) the lost coin.

Jesus clearly explains that the lost sheep/coin being found is in regards to sinners repenting and turning to God.

Luke 15:6-7 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Luke 15:9-10 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Jesus equates lost with being "dead", and being found as being "alive" in the follow up parable of the prodigal son. Therefore being an unrepentant sinner = being dead. Repenting and turning back to the Lord = being alive.

Luke 15:32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’”

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The only way anyone can be delivered from this death (Adam's death) is through spiritual birth from above, being born of the Spirit, and as a result being resurrected with Christ, the last Adam's, resurrection.

I absolutely agree. This seems to explain my previous confusion with your statement. It seems you do agree with 1 peter 1:3 then.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
"Unless a man is [γεννάω gennáō] born [ἄνωθεν ánōthen] from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

No man will see the Kingdom of God without being born of the Spirit of God. It is a prerequisite to the resurrection of the body from the dead - and it is the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing will ever change that. The theology of no man will ever change it.

Absolutely agree.

I just want you to understand that I believe being born of the Spirit of God = being baptized into Christ's death and being raised to walk in the newness of life = being once dead in sin and now being raised with Christ.

Ephesians 2:4-6 Butc God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

=

colossians 1:12-14 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

=

John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The winde blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
PS: I believe the prodigal son quite possibly (I've used the word possibly) refers prophetically to the Jews returning to God through repentance and faith in Jesus, and I believe in the possibility that the brother who was annoyed because he had served his father all this time and yet no banquet was made in his honor, is possibly a prophetic reference to the Gentiles.

In an immediate sense, yes, I would agree that the prodigal son refers to the lost jews (sinners/tax collectors) returning to God through Jesus. However, I would disagree that the older brother, in the immediate sense, refers to the gentiles. I believe it refers to the scribes and pharisees.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Mark 2:16-17 And the scribes of the Pharisees, when they saw that he was eating with sinners and tax collectors, said to his disciples, “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?” And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Nevertheless, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught us all that the prodigal son cannot become alive except through spiritual birth from above, which results in being raised with Christ's resurrection, and no man's theology will ever change that. It's is Christ's resurrection that causes men, through spiritual birth from above, to be synegeírō - resurrected with Christ.

I'm not sure how any of what you provided in post 1500 relates to the questions I asked:

1.) what does it mean to be "dead in your sin"?
You explained that all men die through adam. But you did not address what it means for us to be "dead in our trespasses".

2.) what does it mean for the prodigal son to be "dead"?
You stated you don't believe the prodigal son was spiritually alive then spiritually dead then spiritually alive again, to which I agree. But you never explained what you believe the prodigal son being "dead" means.

Timtofly · Nov 24, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Moses did die.

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
Deu 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

You know that Moses wrote those words before walking out into the desert to meet God, as they watched Joshua cross the Jordan River? Some famous people write their own epitaph. Can you explain why Satan was not given the body? Can you explain how Moses went into the desert and then physically appeared with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration? Why was he with Elijah and where did they come from together? Moses lived before Elijah appeared later on during the rule of Ahab and Jezebel.

Timtofly · Nov 24, 2020

claninja said:
1.) what does it mean to be "dead in your sin"?
You explained that all men die through adam. But you did not address what it means for us to be "dead in our trespasses".

2.) what does it mean for the prodigal son to be "dead"?
You stated you don't believe the prodigal son was spiritually alive then spiritually dead then spiritually alive again, to which I agree. But you never explained what you believe the prodigal son being "dead" means.

It means you are physically born of physical parents. It is the Water birth. You have to be physically alive to be dead in sin.

The prodigal son left home to live out his physical desires away from the Love of God.

The elder brother was the hypocrite. Living in sin secretly, while pretending to be something he was not. Both had to be born from above.

DavidPT · Nov 24, 2020

Timtofly said:
Do you accept that Jesus Christ was 100% human and 100% GOD?

I'm sure I do, but what does that have to do what you said in your post leading up to this question?

Davy · Nov 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Of course I do, and your asking me if I do after the things I posted, is as ludicrous as me asking you if you believe it, after the things you posted.

You speak as though there is a body-swap and we are raised with an entirely different body.

That part I underlined above, that's it!

We all have two different bodies right now, present tense, and that is what Apostle Paul taught, even 2 Corinthians 5:1 and 1 Corinthians 15:44, which are both in the present tense. Likewise, Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed this also. That means at flesh death, our flesh outward shell is simply cast off, going back to the ground where it came from. But our house from heaven is still intact with our soul. Our spirit inside our flesh is actually our spiritual body that Paul was teaching about. The part that is still mortal, even after flesh death, is the soul of those without Christ. It's that simple, but old Jewish traditions don't agree with that, because they instead believe the soul is part of our flesh. It is not, just like Lord Jesus showed in John 3 the difference between flesh and spirit.

As for Lord Jesus, He existed as Spirit prior... to His being born in the flesh through Mary's womb. How could you not know that? That means you cannot just assign His coming into existence by being born through the flesh. His flesh body was transfigured with His Spirit when The Father raised Him. Ours won't be. Our flesh will be cast off at flesh death, or at the change at the twinkling of an eye. Simply, flesh and blood cannot go to the heavenly. You should have understood this also in 2 Corinthians 12 about the near death experience of the one Paul was speaking of.

Zao is life · Nov 24, 2020

claninja said:
I'm not sure how any of what you provided in post 1500 relates to the questions I asked:

1.) what does it mean to be "dead in your sin"?
You explained that all men die through adam. But you did not address what it means for us to be "dead in our trespasses".

2.) what does it mean for the prodigal son to be "dead"?
You stated you don't believe the prodigal son was spiritually alive then spiritually dead then spiritually alive again, to which I agree. But you never explained what you believe the prodigal son being "dead" means.

Well you explain then what you believe it means, since all the things I said + the scriptures I quoted, and all the things you said + scriptures you quoted, show what it means: It means we have no spiritual life in us and are dead in our sins until we are resurrected with Christ's resurrection, which only takes place as a result of being born of the Spirit of Christ. Christ bore our sins in His own body on the cross and when He died, He said, "It is finished". Then He rose from the dead, but we only die with Him and we are only raised with Him because the Spirit of Life breathes His life into us. He was raised from the dead, not us. We are raised with Him because through our spiritual birth by His Spirit, he dwells in us, and as a result, we will also be raised from death in the body, which will have put off flesh and blood, corruption and immortlity and put on Christ. We live in this HOPE - but hope that is (already) seen is not hope.

This is all scripture. Adam was dead in his sin. His death came to all men, because all sinned. That's what scripture teaches us. Adam's sin and Adam's death = mankind's sin & death. God sees individuals in terms of only two men: the fist Adam and the last Adam.

The spiritual body is not ours yet, until we are raised from the dead, and according to scripture that body that will be raised a spiritual body is the same body that was sown into the earth (in death) as a flesh and blood, corruptible, mortal body. It will be raised am incorruptible, immortal, spiritual body. It will no longer be flesh and blood. This will happen because Christ's Spirit dwells in us through our spiritual birth by His Spirit from above. Through the death and resurrection of Christ our Savior, our birth from above and His Spirit in us will result in our bodily resurrection from below.

There is no way that we can be resurrected from the dead with Christ unless and until we are born of the Spirit of Christ from above. The two are the opposite sides of the same coin. It seems to me that you want the cart without the horse.

So if you have found yet another meaning or a different meaning to your questions which are not contained in the scriptures, then it is you who needs to explain. Do not ask me those questions again, since I have answered them and explained them according to scripture.

Davy · Nov 24, 2020

claninja said:
I absolutely agree that the resurrection is from a natural body to a spiritual body

1 corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

My main argument was that being baptized into Christ's death and raised with Him to walk in the newness of life/being raised from death in our trespasses/being born again guarantees this future resurrection from a natural body to a spiritual body.

Therefore, those are born again/raised from being dead in sin/baptized in Christ's death and raised to walk in newness of life, over come the world through their faith in Christ and can never be hurt by the 2nd death.

It's good that you believe in the resurrection of life through our Lord Jesus Christ. I believe too. But you still apparently do not understand the mechanics of it, which Scripture explains also.

Our makeup while alive on this earth is this:
1. flesh body = outward body image, "image of the earthy" per Apostle Paul.
2. spiritual body = outward heavenly body image, the "image of the heavenly" per Paul, but not exposed until our flesh is cast off.
3. soul = our person, our Id, what makes each individual unique.

This is revealed by Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:1, 1 Corinthians 15:40-50, and in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7; Matthew 10:28, etc.

Our spirit is always attached with our soul, they cannot be separated. But our spirit/soul can... be separated from our flesh. This is what Eccl.12:5-7 reveals with the flesh going back to the ground where it came from, but our spirit going back to God Who gave it.

In 1 Corinthians 15:53, this is also what Paul was pointing to in the Greek with four different words:

"corruptible" = flesh body shell, made of earth matter
"incorruption" = spiritual body, a body made of spirit, not earth matter
"this mortal" = a mortal soul that can still perish in the future lake of fire, after flesh death
"immortality" = the state of deathlessness for our spirit with soul, eternal Life in Christ Jesus

Zao is life · Nov 24, 2020

Davy said:
That part I underlined above, that's it!

We all have two different bodies right now, present tense, and that is what Apostle Paul taught, even 2 Corinthians 5:1 and 1 Corinthians 15:44, which are both in the present tense. Likewise, Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed this also. That means at flesh death, our flesh outward shell is simply cast off, going back to the ground where it came from. But our house from heaven is still intact with our soul. Our spirit inside our flesh is actually our spiritual body that Paul was teaching about. The part that is still mortal, even after flesh death, is the soul of those without Christ. It's that simple, but old Jewish traditions don't agree with that, because they instead believe the soul is part of our flesh. It is not, just like Lord Jesus showed in John 3 the difference between flesh and spirit.

As for Lord Jesus, He existed as Spirit prior... to His being born in the flesh through Mary's womb. How could you not know that? That means you cannot just assign His coming into existence by being born through the flesh. His flesh body was transfigured with His Spirit when The Father raised Him. Ours won't be. Our flesh will be cast off at flesh death, or at the change at the twinkling of an eye. Simply, flesh and blood cannot go to the heavenly. You should have understood this also in 2 Corinthians 12 about the near death experience of the one Paul was speaking of.

It's an interesting concept but It's not what the Bible says, IMO (and my opinion cannot be changed by your opinion, because IMO you have read that into the Bible). I doubt that there are many churches who would agree with your assertions, but that's also OK because I don't accept everything taught in churches either, such as the Protestant concept of hell, though I'm neither Catholic nor Orthotdox.

The spiritual body is not ours yet, until we are raised from the dead, and according to scripture that body that will be raised a spiritual body is the same body that was sown into the earth (in death) as a flesh and blood, corruptible, mortal body. It will be raised am incorruptible, immortal, spiritual body. This will happen because Christ's Spirit dwells in us through our spiritual birth by His Spirit from above. Through the death and resurrection of Christ our Savior, our birth from above and His Spirit in us will result in our bodily resurrection from below.

So we disagree. No point in debating it any longer.

claninja · Nov 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It means we have no spiritual life in us

Finally, so you believe being "dead in our sins" or the prodigal son being "dead" means we have "no spiritual life".

I absolutely agree. No spiritual life = spiritually dead.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
and are dead in our sins until we are resurrected with Christ's resurrection,

Here's where I would disagree with you. We are not "dead in our sins" until the bodily resurrection. This is not something found in scripture.

I disagree that we are "dead in our sins" until our future bodily resurrection

The NT is clear that we are "dead in our sins" until we come to Christ. It is the results of Christ's 1st advent that set us free from sin. It is the results of Christ's first advent that "made us alive" when we come to Him in repentance and faith, We go from lost (dead) to found (alive).

Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life

Romans 6:10-11 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

colossians 2:13 you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The spiritual body is not ours yet, until we are raised from the dead,

agreed.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
There is no way that we can be resurrected from the dead with Christ unless and until we are born of the Spirit of Christ from above.

Agreed.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It seems to me that you want the cart without the horse.

What are you talking about? I stated I believe being born from above=being baptized into Christ's death and raised with him to new life=being raised from death in our sins guarantees our future bodily resurrection and no longer being hurt by the 2nd death.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
So if you have found yet another meaning or a different meaning to your questions which are not contained in the scriptures, then it is you who needs to explain. Do not ask me those questions again, since I have answered them and explained them according to scripture.

Thank you for answering my question in your post 1527.

claninja · Nov 24, 2020

Davy said:
It's good that you believe in the resurrection of life through our Lord Jesus Christ.

it's always nice find common ground

Davy said:
But you still apparently do not understand the mechanics of it, which Scripture explains also.

Our makeup while alive on this earth is this:
1. flesh body = outward body image, "image of the earthy" per Apostle Paul.
2. spiritual body = outward heavenly body image, the "image of the heavenly" per Paul, but not exposed until our flesh is cast off.
3. soul = our person, our Id, what makes each individual unique.

This is revealed by Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:1, 1 Corinthians 15:40-50, and in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7; Matthew 10:28, etc.

Our spirit is always attached with our soul, they cannot be separated. But our spirit/soul can... be separated from our flesh. This is what Eccl.12:5-7 reveals with the flesh going back to the ground where it came from, but our spirit going back to God Who gave it.

In 1 Corinthians 15:53, this is also what Paul was pointing to in the Greek with four different words:

"corruptible" = flesh body shell, made of earth matter
"incorruption" = spiritual body, a body made of spirit, not earth matter
"this mortal" = a mortal soul that can still perish in the future lake of fire, after flesh death
"immortality" = the state of deathlessness for our spirit with soul, eternal Life in Christ Jesus

Where did I say I disagree with any of this for you to say I " apparently do not understand the mechanics of it, which Scripture explains also." ?

Davy · Nov 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It's an interesting concept but It's not what the Bible says, IMO (and my opinion cannot be changed by your opinion, because IMO you have read that into the Bible).

Well, that's a false accusation, because I'm not reading anything 'into' The Bible. I am allowing God's Word to interpret itself, without... allowing men's traditions to creep into it, which is exactly what you are allowing. I can tell you've been subject to that old Jewish belief about salvation of the flesh. That's what they believe, as they believe the silly idea that the soul is part of the flesh! They don't understand the difference between flesh and spirit period, much less what God's Word shows about it.

Davy · Nov 24, 2020

claninja said:
it's always nice find common ground

Where did I say I disagree with any of this for you to say I " apparently do not understand the mechanics of it, which Scripture explains also." ?

Your statement about the resurrection being from a natural body to a spiritual body can be misleading, because with many that assumes the natural body of flesh becomes... a spiritual body. It doesn't. Then they will argue about Christ's resurrection in rebuttle, yet they don't realize that Christ's flesh body was transfigured to the heavenly quickened spirit state, but kept the marks of His crucifixion. Nor do they understand how angels who are not in a flesh body can walk and live upon this earth, and eat man's food.

Zao is life · Nov 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Well you explain then what you believe it means, since all the things I said + the scriptures I quoted, and all the things you said + scriptures you quoted, show what it means: It means we have no spiritual life in us

claninja said:
Finally, so you believe being "dead in our sins" or the prodigal son being "dead" means we have "no spiritual life".

I absolutely agree. No spiritual life = spiritually dead.

I've never said anything else. I've said over and over again that Adam=mankind (because we are all sons of Adam). I've said death came into Adam when he sinned, and I've quoted scriptures that teach this truth:

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:" Rom 5:12

"But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.

For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;" 1 Cor 15:20-23

I've never said or implied anything else. I've said, when Adam was created, he had a body and a soul, according to the scriptures. God breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul, according to the scriptures. I've said that when Adam sinned, the Spirit of God no longer dwelt in him, therefore death came into him the moment he sinned, and so his body also died; and I said it does not matter how long after death came into Adam that his body died, death came into him the moment he sinned, and so death came to all men. I've mentioned the FACT that Jesus said unless we are born of the Spirit we cannot see the Kingdom of God. We need to have spiritual life - the life of Christ in us.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
We have no spiritual life in us and are dead in our sins until we are resurrected with Christ's resurrection, which only takes place as a result of being born of the Spirit of Christ.

claninja said:
Here's where I would disagree with you. We are not "dead in our sins" until the bodily resurrection. This is not something found in scripture.

I disagree that we are "dead in our sins" until our future bodily resurrection.
The NT is clear that we are "dead in our sins" until we come to Christ. It is the results of Christ's 1st advent that set us free from sin. It is the results of Christ's first advent that "made us alive" when we come to Him in repentance and faith, We go from lost (dead) to found (alive).

You are correct, but I was not talking about our future bodily resurrection (though admittedly I never made that clear, so my apologies for not making myself clear). I was talking about the fact that we have no spiritual life in us until we are born of the Spirit. It is at that point that we are resurrected with Christ's resurrection:

"If ye then be [συνεγε synegeírō] risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." Col 3:1

"For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of (His) [ἀνάστασις anástasis] the resurrection;" Rom 6:5

I was talking about the fact that we have no spiritual life in us until we are born of the Spirit, at which point we die with Christ through baptism into (His) death, and are raised with Him - all scripture.

I was not saying that we have no spiritual life in us until we ourselves are bodily raised from the dead. Our own bodily resurrection comes because Chirst, the last Adam, is risen from the dead, and through spiritual birth by His Spirit, we are found IN HIM:

Romans 8:10-11 "And if Christ is in you, indeed the body [σῶμα sōma] is dead because of sin, but the Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] is life because of (Christ's) righteousness - but if the Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] of the One who raised up [ἐγείρω egeírō] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up [ἐγείρω egeírō] Christ from the dead shall also vitalize [ζωοποιέωby zōopoiéō] your mortal [θνητός thnētós] bodies [σῶμα sōma] by His Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] who dwells in you."

Therefore whatever you say below we agree on:

claninja said:
Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life

Romans 6:10-11 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

colossians 2:13 you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses.

We agree on all of the above statements, but not on the words you choose for what you say below:

claninja said:
What are you talking about? I stated I believe being born from above = being baptized into Christ's death and raised with him to new life = being raised from death in our sins guarantees our future bodily resurrection and no longer being hurt by the 2nd death.

You also (falsely) call being born from above a spiritual resurrection (implying we were alive spiritually, lived spiritually and died spiritually). This is what our whole disagreement is about. The correct wording for what you said above is the wording found in scripture - which you have adjusted to mean spiritual resurrection through a false theological interpretation of scripture.

The correct wording is:

When we were born from above by the Spirit of Christ, it resulted in our being baptized into Christ's death and our being raised to new life through and with His resurrection (since He is IN US and we IN HIM through our spiritual BIRTH by His Spirit), and this God has done for us even though we were dead in our sins, therefore our spiritual birth into Christ + Christ's resurrection from death guarantees our future bodily resurrection and no longer being hurt by the 2nd death, IF we die in Christ, having remained faithful to the end, and do not fall away or deny Christ before we die physically.

Your theology states:

When we were spiritually resurrected from the dead from above by the Spirit of Christ, it resulted in our being baptized into Christ's death and our being raised to new life through and with His resurrection (since He is IN US and we IN HIM through our spiritual resurrection from death by His Spirit), and this God has done for us even though we were dead in our sins, therefore our spiritual resurrection from death into Christ + Christ's resurrection from death guarantees our future bodily resurrection and no longer being hurt by the 2nd death, IF we die in Christ, having remained faithful to the end, and do not fall away or deny Christ before we die physically.

We were never alive spiritually - not when we were born of the flesh into the first Adam, and not until we were born of the Spirit. So we cannot be raised from the dead spiritually. We are only alive spiritually because we have been born of the Spirit of Christ.

claninja · Nov 25, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I've never said anything else. I've said over and over again that Adam=mankind (because we are all sons of Adam). I've said death came into Adam when he sinned, and I've quoted scriptures that teach this truth:

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:" Rom 5:12

"But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruit of those who slept.

For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;" 1 Cor 15:20-23

I've never said or implied anything else. I've said, when Adam was created, he had a body and a soul, according to the scriptures. God breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul, according to the scriptures. I've said that when Adam sinned, the Spirit of God no longer dwelt in him, therefore death came into him the moment he sinned, and so his body also died; and I said it does not matter how long after death came into Adam that his body died, death came into him the moment he sinned, and so death came to all men. I've mentioned the FACT that Jesus said unless we are born of the Spirit we cannot see the Kingdom of God. We need to have spiritual life - the life of Christ in us.

Prior to post 1527, you never stated that "being dead in your sin" or the prodigal son being "dead" = having no spiritual life.

One can be physically alive and have no spiritual life. So when you simply say death came through adam to all men. this doesn't clarify what you believe "being dead in your sin" or the prodigal son being "dead" means.

But in post 1527, you clarified your answer, so thank you.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
You are correct, but I was not talking about our future bodily resurrection (though admittedly I never made that clear, so my apologies for not making myself clear)

No worries. I think what might be the problem in our dialogue is the terms we are for resurrection.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I was talking about the fact that we have no spiritual life in us until we are born of the Spirit.

I agree that we have no spiritual life in us, until we are born of the spirit.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It is at that point that we are resurrected with Christ's resurrection:

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
It is at that point that we are resurrected with Christ's resurrection:

"If ye then be [συνεγε synegeírō] risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." Col 3:1

"For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of (His) [ἀνάστασις anástasis] the resurrection;" Rom 6:5

This may be the source of confusion.

I agree that it is at that point (being born of the spirit) that we are raised (synegeiro) with Christ to walk in newness of life. I believe this being born of the spirit, which raises (synegeiro) us from being dead in our sin, guarantees our future bodily (anastasis) resurrection.

I disagree that is at that point (being born of the spirit) that we are bodily resurrected (anastasis). I believe the bodily resurrection (anastasis) to be future.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
You also (falsely) call being born from above a spiritual resurrection (implying we were alive spiritually, lived spiritually and died spiritually). This is what our whole disagreement is about. The correct wording for what you said above is the wording found in scripture - which you have adjusted to mean spiritual resurrection through a false theological interpretation of scripture.

The correct wording is:

When we were born from above by the Spirit of Christ, it resulted in our being baptized into Christ's death and our being raised to new life through and with His resurrection (since He is IN US and we IN HIM through our spiritual BIRTH by His Spirit), and this God has done for us even though we were dead in our sins, therefore our spiritual birth into Christ + Christ's resurrection from death guarantees our future bodily resurrection and no longer being hurt by the 2nd death, IF we die in Christ, having remained faithful to the end, and do not fall away or deny Christ before we die physically.

For starters, I've never called it a spiritual resurrection. I believe when we come to Christ in repentance and Faith, we are baptized into his death and raised (synegeiro) with His resurrection (anastasis) to walk in newness of life. It is Christ's resurrection (anastasis) that raised us (synegeiro) and made us alive (synezoopoiesen) with Him.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Your theology states:

When we were spiritually resurrected from the dead from above by the Spirit of Christ, it resulted in our being baptized into Christ's death and our being raised to new life through and with His resurrection (since He is IN US and we IN HIM through our spiritual resurrection from death by His Spirit), and this God has done for us even though we were dead in our sins, therefore our spiritual resurrection from death into Christ + Christ's resurrection from death guarantees our future bodily resurrection and no longer being hurt by the 2nd death, IF we die in Christ, having remained faithful to the end, and do not fall away or deny Christ before we die physically.

No, my understanding is that when we are born of water and spirit (baptism) we are buried into Christ's death, and raised (synegeiro) by his resurrection (anastasis) to walk in newness of life, made alive by His Spirit, and now dead to sin. This guarantees our future resurrection, and that we can no longer be hurt by the 2nd death.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
We were never alive spiritually - not when we were born of the flesh into the first Adam, and not until we were born of the Spirit. So we cannot be raised from the dead spiritually. We are only alive spiritually because we have been born of the Spirit of Christ.

I never stated we were alive spiritually prior to coming to Christ.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 25, 2020

Davy said:
Your statement about the resurrection being from a natural body to a spiritual body can be misleading, because with many that assumes the natural body of flesh becomes... a spiritual body. It doesn't. Then they will argue about Christ's resurrection in rebuttle, yet they don't realize that Christ's flesh body was transfigured to the heavenly quickened spirit state, but kept the marks of His crucifixion. Nor do they understand how angels who are not in a flesh body can walk and live upon this earth, and eat man's food.

What is it that will be resurrected when Christ comes at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)? What is it that will then be "changed" when Christ comes at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)?

Zao is life · Nov 25, 2020

claninja said:
No, my understanding is that when we are born of water and spirit (baptism) we are buried into Christ's death, and raised (synegeiro) by his resurrection (anastasis) to walk in newness of life, made alive by His Spirit, and now dead to sin. This guarantees our future resurrection, and that we can no longer be hurt by the 2nd death.

It seems to me you have the wrong understanding of the word 'water' in John 3:5. We are not born "of water and of the Spirit" when we are born of the Spirit. Let's take a look at this, properly:

Jesus clarified what He meant by "Unless you are born of water and of the Spirit" by saying immediately afterward, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

"Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5-6

John said,

"And I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water, that One said to me, Upon whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon Him, He is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit." John 1:33

We are born of water when we are born of the womb. This is why Jesus clarified what He meant by immediately following His statement in John 3:5 with "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Physiologically the average human adult male is approximately 60-63% water, and the average adult female is approximately 52-55% water. The body water constitutes as much as 75% of the body weight of a newborn infant. Body water is the water content of the flesh that is contained in the tissues, the blood, the bones and elsewhere.

We are not "born of water" through the water that we are baptized in when we are dunked or sprinkled - that's just the outward sign of what has already taken place within. Neither are we "born of water" when we are Baptized by the Spirit into Christ, and into His death and resurrection.

Baptism in water is only the outward sign of what has taken place already when we were born of the Spirit of Christ. The moment we were born of the Spirit of Christ, we were baptized into His death and raised with Him. Else what happens to those who were born of the Spirit, repented and turned to Christ and were due to be baptized in church, but died in a car accident before arriving at the church? Are they not baptized into Christ? Of course they are - they were baptized into Christ the moment they were born of His Spirit.

We were born of water when we are born of the flesh, and we were born into Adam's death the moment we were born of the flesh, but we are raised with Christ the moment we are born of His Spirit.

The key word is "born". It is being born of His Spirit that placed us in Him - and therefore the moment we are born of God/the Spirit of Christ we are baptized by the Spirit of Christ into Christ's death and resurrection.

We were born of water when we were born of the flesh, and John baptized with water - but Christ baptizes with the Spirit. That is how we received everlasting life - through the baptism of the Spirit when we were born of the Spirit. The water baptism we receive afterwards is not the same as John's, because John baptized with water unto repentance, but our water baptism is the outward sign of the life we have already received when we were baptized by Christ with the Spirit of God.

We know that when we are born of the Spirit it's not "our" 'spiritual resurrection', because we were never alive spiritually prior to our being born from above of the Spirit of God/Christ, who baptized us into Christ's death and raised us with Christ the moment we were born of His Spirit.

Davy · Nov 25, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
What is it that will be resurrected when Christ comes at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)? What is it that will then be "changed" when Christ comes at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)?

Where did Apostle Paul get the idea of 'death swallowed up in victory' he mentioned in 1 Cor.15?

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.'
KJV

Spiritual Jew · Nov 25, 2020

Davy said:
Where did Apostle Paul get the idea of 'death swallowed up in victory' he mentioned in 1 Cor.15?

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.'
KJV

How does this answer my question? I'm asking what will be resurrected at the last trumpet and then what is going to be changed? I'm talking about the body here. What kind of body will be resurrected and what will it be changed to?

By the way, you know Isaiah 25:8 is also quoted in Revelation 21:4, right? That passage will be fulfilled when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. Do you agree?

Zao is life · Nov 26, 2020

Davy said:
I believe the story of Lazarus and the rich man which Jesus gave at the end of Luke 16 is actually how it is. That agrees with the rest of Bible Scripture (as it should, since He wrote it).

In Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 early on, we are told that at flesh death our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, but our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. We are told there also that there is a "silver cord" that holds those two objects together until flesh death, and then that silver cord is severed. Now some scholars try to interpret that "spirit" there to mean just an animating force that all living things have, and not about our soul person with it. I disagree with them, as that is how the Jewish traditions believe, but it goes against what Lord Jesus declared in Matthew 10:28 showing that our soul does not die with the flesh. Thus the Jewish idea that the soul is part of a manifestation of the flesh is wrong. The unbelieving Jews don't read nor recognize Jesus' updates in The New Testament, nor Paul's explanations in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, etc.

So this would mean that when one born in the flesh dies, they go to Paradise like Jesus showed, either to one side or the other. And it's their spirit with soul that goes there, not their flesh of course. Many don't realize that Apostle Paul revealed that the "spiritual body" we actually already have inside our flesh body, it's what he called our building from God, an house not made with hands...

2 Cor 5:1-2
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
KJV

That phrase "we have" is in the present tense, not future tense. Same thing in 1 Corinthians 15:44 when Paul said, "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." That is in the present tense, now, and agrees with Eccl.12:5-7. So Paul understood that our flesh natural body is simply cast off at the death of our flesh, or at the change on the last trump.

We don't agree on this, but I was reading your post here and noticed that the same word used for "groan" in 2 Cor 5:2 is also used in Rom 8:22, and the following passages show that what you say is something which we already have (the spiritual body), scripture says is something we are still hoping for - and it's the resurrection of the body:

Rom 8:22-25
"And we know that the whole creation groans (συστενάζω systenázō) and travails in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan (στενάζω stenázō) within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it?
25 But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience."

The word stenázō means to groan, and the word systenázō refers to groaning together - as in the creation groaning together.

2 Cor 5:1-5
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For indeed in this we groan (στενάζω stenázō), earnestly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling-place out of Heaven;
if indeed in being clothed, we shall not be found naked.
For we who are in this tabernacle groan groan (στενάζω stenázō), being burdened; inasmuch as we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed, so that the mortal might be swallowed up by the life.
And He who has worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving to us the earnest (ἀῤῥαβών arrhabṓn) of the Spirit.

The word arrhabṓn (G00728) means "a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:--earnest." It is also found in 2 Cor 1:22

2 Cor 1:22:
"Now he who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God; Who has also sealed us, and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (ἀῤῥαβών arrhabṓn)"

So 2 Cor 5:1-2 clearly refers, like the rest of the New Testament, to our future bodily resurrection, and does not support your assertion regarding us "already having" this spiritual body.

It seems to me that you have developed a personal theology regarding the spiritual body, and are interpreting the entire New Testament "in the light of" it.

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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