Literally? 2

Agallagher said:

Hey you welcome to the discussion.

The subject is of these scriptures : Jesus said, 'With God all things are possible' (Matthew 19:26). ... It is the power of God that makes what seems impossible possible. Nothing is impossible with God(Luke 1:37).

if this is a literal statement, why doesn’t God heal my paraplegic friend?

Why doesn’t God stop the world from its wickedness if he is capable of making all things possible?

Why wouldn’t he just let us be able to have our past animals to raise from the dead that we loved so dearly?

What does the Holy Spirit tell you about the scripture can we try to prayerfully understand what is being iterated ?

Please help, thank you for your comments, and hope everyone is ready for thanksgiving ! Almost time.

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The answer is very simple. There are conditions that must be met. Suffering and sowing that must be accomplished to reap. Do you think God is just going to pour it all out on mankind if at least some people on earth are not willing to lay down everything like Christ did to bring in the kind of boom or harvest your talking about?

Then there are the ways of God. This is the hugest of deals. Lots of people see his acts. Your reading about them in your Bible. But how to get them yourself or for those around you? Well for that people have to learn his ways experientialy. Again back to sowing. Many, many ,many reject his ways without even knowing that is what they are dong. Essentially they want it their way or the highway.

Agallagher said:

Hey you welcome to the discussion.

The subject is of these scriptures : Jesus said, 'With God all things are possible' (Matthew 19:26). ... It is the power of God that makes what seems impossible possible. Nothing is impossible with God(Luke 1:37).

if this is a literal statement, why doesn’t God heal my paraplegic friend?

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Well, if your friend is a born-again follower of Jesus, God will one day give your friend a glorified body, free of all disease and damage, that will endure for all eternity. The condition your friend is in is not permanent. And when he is moving through eternity, billions of years removed from now, he will wonder about all the fuss that was made over the fleeting time of this life.

We were made, not for time, but for eternity. This is God's view of our earthly lives and part of the reason He does not act to make it perfect. He sees the bigger, forever nature of our lives as we do not.

God certainly could heal your friend but His top priority is that your friend might know Him as his Saviour, Lord and Heavenly Father. That might very well be better achieved through your friend's current condition, rather than in a healthy body he might use in pursuit of things that would distract him from God. It is in total dependence upon God that the deepest fellowship with Him is experienced.
Your friend's paraplegia is also a provocation to others to exercise love and care for one who is vulnerable and weak. Especially in the West, affluence, and ease, and the proliferation of selfish distractions lure people into very self-centered living. The needs of others can help move us out of our selfishness and teach us about true agape love.

The pain, disease and death of our world is the consequence of Man's sin. It is the consequence of God giving us the freedom to choose whether or not we will love Him. If God acted to remove every negative effect of our sinful choices, we would not be truly free agents, our choices (the bad ones, anyway) wouldn't really matter and we wouldn't then be able to properly choose to love God. Your friend's paraplegia is a reminder to us all that our sin has concrete and serious consequences that ripple out to touch others in damaging ways we cannot fathom - as our righteous deeds do, too, but in a positive way.

Agallagher said:

Why wouldn’t he just let us be able to have our past animals to raise from the dead that we loved so dearly?

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Because as much as people make their pets a major feature of their life, in God's economy, they are not important at all. Very often, people love their pets far more than they do their fellow man and their Creator. This is a terrible corruption of human affection which God will not foster in any of us.

Agallagher said:

What does the Holy Spirit tell you about the scripture can we try to prayerfully understand what is being iterated ?

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We can always trust the Holy Spirit to deepen our understanding of God's word as we spend time carefully and prayerfully studying it. (John 14:26; John 16:13)

Confused-by-christianity said:

I'd only say the above to someone pondering philosophically as you are.

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Isn’t freewill the ultimate answer to the philosophical problem of evil and suffering?


The emotional problem needs pastoral care, family and friends etc, but the logical problem doesn’t seem like much of a mystery to me. I think Christians have the logical argument beat on this side of heaven.

Dave L said:

The prayer of faith still heals occasionally. But the Apostles and their gifts of the Spirit are long gone. Even in the Epistles Paul could no longer heal but offered medicine.

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You ignored my scriptures to say that your own personal beliefs and doctrines are more true?

The Bible says that those that believe will be able to lay their hands on the sick and have them recover. It states specifically that this is a sign that will follow them. Not follow apostles, or follow until the time period you believe it should have stopped. :
"And these signs shall follow them that believe.......
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Are your words more true than these words from scripture?

Cormack said:

Isn’t freewill the ultimate answer to the philosophical problem of evil and suffering?

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Good question. Wouldn't you just ask why a good God made a world that required freewill in order to love? Couldn't He make a universe that you could Love in, have freewill in, and without evil?

I'm sure I'm treading over ground other before me have hashed out!!

Confused-by-christianity said:

I'm sure I'm treading over ground other before me have hashed out!!

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Oh for sure but personally I never mind that, we’ve got 2000 years of Christian conversation to enjoy and reflect on. That’s a blessing.

Confused-by-christianity said:

Wouldn't you just ask why a good God made a world that required freewill in order to love? Couldn't He make a universe that you could Love in, have freewill in, and without evil?

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It depends on how we see love, if it’s counter causal and independently volitional then having love without freewill is a square circle or dry water, it’s a contradiction, and I’d never expect God to do contradictions because they’re nonsense.

If love isn’t counter causal and independently volitional God could create a world where love is given, received and everyone is “free” in some novel, unintuitive sense of the word. Then evil and suffering would again be a mystery, because God doesn’t require us to go through these troubling times, but he does that to us anyway.

Obviously my foot is firmly in the love is independently volitional and counter casual camp, meaning the mystery of evil and suffering is no longer a mystery.

Cormack said:

Oh for sure but personally I never mind that, we’ve got 2000 years of Christian conversation to enjoy and reflect on. That’s a blessing.



It depends on how we see love, if it’s counter causal and independently volitional then having love without freewill is a square circle or dry water, it’s a contradiction, and I’d never expect God to do contradictions because they’re nonsense.

If love isn’t counter causal and independently volitional God could create a world where love is given, received and everyone is “free” in some novel, unintuitive sense of the word. Then evil and suffering would again be a mystery, because God doesn’t require us to go through these troubling times, but he does that to us anyway.

Obviously my foot is firmly in the love is independently volitional and counter casual camp, meaning the mystery of evil and suffering is no longer a mystery.

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. It doesn’t explain “why” though. It gives a possibility of the “how it all works” but not the motivation of God. ???

Confused-by-christianity said:

Good question. Wouldn't you just ask why a good God made a world that required freewill in order to love? Couldn't He make a universe that you could Love in, have freewill in, and without evil?

I'm sure I'm treading over ground other before me have hashed out!!

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There was free will and no evil in the beginning. Evil is the result of having an autonomous free will with both angels and men.

A un loving God would be one who created this world without the possibility of disobeying Him and not have any choice to love and obey or choose out of ones own free will do something apart form Him.

I guess it comes down to a matter of ones own perspective, bias and presuppositions they bring into the question.

hope this helps !!!

Confused-by-christianity said:

. It doesn’t explain “why” though. It gives a possibility of the “how it all works” but not the motivation of God. ???

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Under the idea of counter causal freedom? I think the philosophical notion would explain why, for example, God’s committed to the free exercise of choice over against a world in which His creatures couldn’t exercise choice freely. He’s committed to the higher good of things like sacrificial love and freely choosing Him, instead of simply creating a world of choiceless people who can avoid pain.

The real problem would be answering why if God created a world like this without counter causal circumstances.

Under this philosophical system God could create an entire world where people served him without a moment of pain or loss or sinfulness, but he doesn’t. He could save everyone with their “freedom” in tact, but instead he damns them forever.

Version 2 is a mystery, because we can’t begin to imagine why a loving God would behave that way. There’s no way to defend against the argument from evil and suffering without punting to mystery.

Version 1 however contains independently volitional love and counter casual events, there’s no mystery there and we can rebuff the unbelievers argument from evil and suffering.

Cormack said:

Under the idea of counter causal freedom? I think the philosophical notion would explain why, for example, God’s committed to the free exercise of choice over against a world in which His creatures couldn’t exercise choice freely. He’s committed to the higher good of things like sacrificial love and freely choosing Him, instead of simply creating a world of choiceless people who can avoid pain.

The real problem would be answering why if God created a world like this without counter causal circumstances.

Under this philosophical system God could create an entire world where people served him without a moment of pain or loss or sinfulness, but he doesn’t. He could save everyone with their “freedom” in tact, but instead he damns them forever.

Version 2 is a mystery, because we can’t begin to imagine why a loving God would behave that way. There’s no way to defend against the argument from evil and suffering without punting to mystery.

Version 1 however contains independently volitional love and counter casual events, there’s no mystery there and we can rebuff the unbelievers argument from evil and suffering.

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Doesn’t version 1 say God is limited by logic?

Confused-by-christianity said:

Doesn’t version 1 say God is limited by logic?

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Or it’s saying that God is the source of all logic. Logic depends on God, not God on logic.

I don’t think it’s a limit to say God doesn’t do absurd nonsense things, if we insist our God can do absurd non things we are saying our God isn’t doing anything real.

Logical contradictions aren’t real, so why insist that God does them?

The greater danger would be having an absurd God who regularly breaks logic, right? He’s good and bad, he exists but doesn’t exist, a mixed bag of nuts that humans could use to justify anything.

RaymondG said:

You ignored my scriptures to say that your own personal beliefs and doctrines are more true?

The Bible says that those that believe will be able to lay their hands on the sick and have them recover. It states specifically that this is a sign that will follow them. Not follow apostles, or follow until the time period you believe it should have stopped. :
"And these signs shall follow them that believe.......
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Are your words more true than these words from scripture?

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Does everyone read scripture correctly? Look at all the opposing views and explain why you have it and the rest don't.

Cormack said:

Or it’s saying that God is the source of all logic. Logic depends on God, not God on logic.

I don’t think it’s a limit to say God doesn’t do absurd nonsense things, if we insist our God can do absurd non things we are saying our God isn’t doing anything real.

Logical contradictions aren’t real, so why insist that God does them?

The greater danger would be having an absurd God who regularly breaks logic, right? He’s good and bad, he exists but doesn’t exist, a mixed bag of nuts that humans could use to justify anything.

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I was coming from here:
God can do anything.
God is above everything.
God can make a universe without suffering and where the beings choose to love him and he them - if he cannot do this he isn’t all powerful.

(admittedly - the problem of evil isn’t my strong point)

Cormack said:

Or it’s saying that God is the source of all logic. Logic depends on God, not God on logic.

I don’t think it’s a limit to say God doesn’t do absurd nonsense things, if we insist our God can do absurd non things we are saying our God isn’t doing anything real.

Logical contradictions aren’t real, so why insist that God does them?

The greater danger would be having an absurd God who regularly breaks logic, right? He’s good and bad, he exists but doesn’t exist, a mixed bag of nuts that humans could use to justify anything.

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Btw - you shouldn’t have to explain this to me. If I haven’t got it by now - I should do my own studying haha ;-) it’s clearly a gap in my knowledge . Thanks though

Confused-by-christianity said:

Btw - you shouldn’t have to explain this to me. If I haven’t got it by now - I should do my own studying haha ;-) it’s clearly a gap in my knowledge . Thanks though

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God love you, mate. I believe we’re here to comfort, entertain and edify each other, hopefully you enjoyed the exchange.

Breadcrumb trail if you want to follow the ministry behind that video in message #63, WLC is an absolute wrecking ball of a Christian apologist (maybe the best in the world.)

Cormack said:

God love you, mate. I believe we’re here to comfort, entertain and edify each other, hopefully you enjoyed the exchange.

Breadcrumb trail if you want to follow the ministry behind that video in message #63, WLC is an absolute wrecking ball of a Christian apologist (maybe the best in the world.)

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Thanks - I’m going to search for a philosophy podcast on free will and the problem of evil

Dave L said:

Does everyone read scripture correctly? Look at all the opposing views and explain why you have it and the rest don't.

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So when you find a verse you dont like, you ignore it....or try to find other verses that do seem to not agree with it?

How can one ever find truth, if they think they already have it.......thus anything new is dismissed or is made to conform to what they already know.

If Jesus were to appear to one in this state....would they not, as well, dismiss anything He said that did not conform to the experience and doctrines of that one?

RaymondG said:

So when you find a verse you dont like, you ignore it....or try to find other verses that do seem to not agree with it?

How can one ever find truth, if they think they already have it.......thus anything new is dismissed or is made to conform to what they already know.

If Jesus were to appear to one in this state....would they not, as well, dismiss anything He said that did not conform to the experience and doctrines of that one?

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I think you describe the condition of most.

Dave L said:

I think you describe the condition of most.

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I agree. And this is why it is said, that the path is narrow and few there be that find it. We are our own worst enemy. We kill ourselves and then ask why are we dying. The way to life is made plain....so plain that the learned dismiss it and only children would agree to such easy methods and terms. So simple, let so hard. We would rather earn and work ourselves to death, than except a free gift of life. I dont understand why things are this way....but...

"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."

Agallagher said:

Hey you welcome to the discussion.

The subject is of these scriptures : Jesus said, 'With God all things are possible' (Matthew 19:26). ... It is the power of God that makes what seems impossible possible. Nothing is impossible with God(Luke 1:37).

if this is a literal statement, why doesn’t God heal my paraplegic friend?

Why doesn’t God stop the world from its wickedness if he is capable of making all things possible?

Why wouldn’t he just let us be able to have our past animals to raise from the dead that we loved so dearly?

What does the Holy Spirit tell you about the scripture can we try to prayerfully understand what is being iterated ?

Please help, thank you for your comments, and hope everyone is ready for thanksgiving ! Almost time.

Click to expand...

God will heal your friend and you and me when Jesus returns. You need to take the long, biblical view, not just the this-world view of healing.

Wickedness will end before God creates the new heaven and earth referred symbolically to in Revelation 21:1 and following with the perfected church as the new Jerusalem.

I don't know about animals in the new universe; for me, that question is still open.

The Holy Spirit leads us into deeper understanding and application of the Bible to our lives, but there will still be mysteries like the Trinity and Jesus' two natures, divine and human.

May God bless us all with truly thankful hearts and lives on Thanksgiving and every day.