Is "socialism" a scare word in America?

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Nithavela

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How would you objectively measure those degrees of suffering?
There's no need to objectively measure something that is subjective. It is enough when society reaches a consensus on it and acts accordingly.

What is objectively not true is that suffering is infinite, because I can tell you that rights now, I'm only suffering a little bit.
 
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Brightmoon

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Tell that to the N Koreans.
North Korea is under the control of a dictator. He can call his brand of government anything he wants but it’s a dictatorship in reality .
 
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ViaCrucis

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Socialism is the government's attempt to solve, or appear to solve, the problems of its society. It is paid for by taking resources from individuals, making them less capable of solving their own problems, especially their unique problems.

Socialism makes for bigger government, increasing its power relative to the individual. The one who solves the problems is the one who makes the decisions. Hence, the decision maker will more closely resemble the lowest common denominator of a mostly godless society, and the god-fearing individual is not permitted to make his decisions independently.

Socialism is a greater dependence on man, with a reciprocally diminished reliance upon God.

So instead of socialism of any kind, we should instead have lawless anarchy? I mean, if the government shouldn't take public resources to use for public goods, that means no infrastructure, no law enforcement, no court system, no military, etc.

After all, the system in which each individual resolves their own issues by themselves, and in which there is the smallest possible government at all, is that in which there is no government whatsoever--anarchy.

Every person for themselves. Each person is a law unto themselves.

Is that really godly? I mean, biblically speaking, the only form of government God ever established in human history was a welfare state: Israel. There are literally commandments that came directly from God involving the redistribution of wealth by the government.

"You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.

At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do." - Deuteronomy 14:22-29

"When you have finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year, which is the year of tithing, giving it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your towns and be filled, then you shall say before the Lord your God, ‘I have removed the sacred portion out of my house, and moreover, I have given it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all your commandment that you have commanded me. I have not transgressed any of your commandments, nor have I forgotten them. I have not eaten of the tithe while I was mourning, or removed any of it while I was unclean, or offered any of it to the dead. I have obeyed the voice of the Lord my God. I have done according to all that you have commanded me. Look down from your holy habitation, from heaven, and bless your people Israel and the ground that you have given us, as you swore to our fathers, a land flowing with milk and honey.’" - Deuteronomy 26:12-15

Indeed, the one who did not tithe, is accused of robbing God,

"Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts.

For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the Lord of hosts. But you say, ‘How shall we return?’ Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions. You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.
" - Malachi 3:5-10

The whole point of the tithe in the Torah was the redistribution of wealth from those who had, to those who had not.

I don't know where some Christians get this idea that a government using public resources for public good is evil, and that the "Christian" way of doing things is everyone for him or herself. But that's certainly not the biblical way, and historically, it's never been the Christian way either.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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Then are we in agreement that by this definition to date the US has not been a socialist government?
That's right, but big strides have been made in that direction, so that's a cause for concern. It's just that when people start talking as though having a public schools system such as we do amounts to Socialism, that's obviously not so. They do that, however, in order to divert attention from the fact that our federal government has progressively taken over more and more of what should have remained in the private sector.
 
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Belk

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That's right, but big strides have been made in that direction, so that's a cause for concern. It's just that when people start talking as though having a public schools system such as we do amounts to Socialism, that's obviously not so.

Yes, but generally in response to claims of socialism that are on a similar level like social security or taxes.

They do that, however, in order to divert attention from the fact that our federal government has progressively taken over more and more of what should have remained in the private sector.

Can you please give some examples of what you see as government take over of the private sector? The only thing I can think of that match that are security for airlines so I would be curious to hear what you think is a movement in the direction of government control of resources.
 
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Albion

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Yes, and since no one advocates this sort of intervention (post #8), this scare-word should not be used in American politics.
All sorts of prominent people have promoted aspects of it during past years; and now in the last four years or so, we have a large political organization of self-identified "Democratic Socialists" and members of Congress (!) openly identifying with Socialism and advocating for it specifically, so I don't know how you missed this.
 
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apogee

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The word has been twisted and bastardized many times over. What one person defines as "socialism", another does not. We are a far cry from 1952, here in 2020. For that reason, I'll stick to a definition that comes from as non-biased a source as I can find.

Encyclopedia Britannica defines it as: social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members.

Based on this definition, I do not support socialism.

Based on this definition, I'd be very surprised if anyone here did, unless they're currently posting in the non-existent Amish section of this Forum.
 
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apogee

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All sorts of prominent people have promoted aspects of it during past years; and now in the last four years or so, we have a large political organization of self-identified "Democratic Socialists" and members of Congress (!) openly identifying with Socialism and advocating for it specifically, so I don't know how you missed this.

Probably because it's utterly unremarkable.
 
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Vanellus

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Quoting from Internet Encyclopaedia of Philosophy

Considered as an economic system, socialism is best understood in contrast with capitalism.

Capitalism designates an economic system with all of the following features:

  1. The means of production are, for the most part, privately owned;
  2. People own their labor power, and are legally free to sell it to (or withhold it from) others;
  3. Production is generally oriented towards profit rather than use: firms produce not in the first instance to satisfy human needs, but rather to make money; and
  4. Markets play a major role in allocating inputs to commodity production and determining the amount and direction of investment.
An economic system is socialist only if it rejects feature 1, private ownership of the means of production in favor of public or social ownership. But must an economic system reject any of features 2-4 to count as socialist, or is rejection of private property sufficient as well as necessary? Here, socialists disagree. Some, often called “market socialists”, hold that socialism is compatible, in principle, with wage labor, profit-seeking firms, and extensive use of markets to organize and coordinate production and investment. Others, sometimes called “orthodox” or “classical” socialists, contend that an economic system with these features is scarcely distinguishable from capitalism; true socialism, on this view, requires not merely social ownership of the means of production but also planned production for use, as opposed to “anarchic”, market-driven production for profit.

"Production" has a wide definition beyond producing widgets.
 
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Ana the Ist

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North Korea is under the control of a dictator. He can call his brand of government anything he wants but it’s a dictatorship in reality .

Communism always is....that's the big part of its problem. Have you ever read the Communist manifesto? Ever read any of Marx's critiques of capitalism?

Marx spends about 90-95 percent of his writing on why capitalism is so bad. He gives communism a name, he provided some brief and extremely generalized words describing it....but he never gets to explaining how to create it. I don't think he knew.

The defining principle for the distribution of goods and services is....

From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.

That's the "economic basis" of distribution in Communism....and it's astonishingly bad.
 
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apogee

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Have you ever read the Communist manifesto? Ever read any of Marx's critiques of capitalism?

Marx spends about 90-95 percent of his writing on why capitalism is so bad. He gives communism a name, he provided some brief and extremely generalized words describing it....but he never gets to explaining how to create it. I don't think he knew.

I’m pretty sure he’s not very active these days.
 
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Andrewn

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All sorts of prominent people have promoted aspects of it during past years; and now in the last four years or so, we have a large political organization of self-identified "Democratic Socialists" and members of Congress (!) openly identifying with Socialism and advocating for it specifically, so I don't know how you missed this.
Democratic Socialism is properly defined in post #119. Bernie Sanders does not advocate this. His views are rather consistent with Social Democracy:

Bernie Is Not a Socialist and America Is Not Capitalist

No one advocates that we become like Cuba, Venezuela, or N Korea. The word "socialism" is only used to scare voters.
 
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ananda

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There's no need to objectively measure something that is subjective. It is enough when society reaches a consensus on it and acts accordingly.

What is objectively not true is that suffering is infinite, because I can tell you that rights now, I'm only suffering a little bit.
I was referring to the types of suffering, not a particular individual's experience of suffering.
 
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Speedwell

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There's no need to objectively measure something that is subjective. It is enough when society reaches a consensus on it and acts accordingly.

What is objectively not true is that suffering is infinite, because I can tell you that rights now, I'm only suffering a little bit.
Maybe so, but think of how much you would be suffering if even a small amount more of your hard-earned tax dollars were being spent on people whose lifestyle choices you don't approve of. You'd be groaning in agony for sure.
 
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Nithavela

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Maybe so, but think of how much you would be suffering if even a small amount more of your hard-earned tax dollars were being spent on people whose lifestyle choices you don't approve of. You'd be groaning in agony for sure.
Joke's on you, I approve of every lifestyle choice.
 
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gaara4158

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Based on this definition, I'd be very surprised if anyone here did, unless they're currently posting in the non-existent Amish section of this Forum.
Can you point out what exactly it is about a democratically-run workplace that is so much less desirable than the common dictatorial model?
 
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