Christian flourishing in a pluralistic setting

Hazelelponi · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
Yes, please don't compromise. I agree.

Now that we have that out of the way, how do we go forward in a pluralistic context working for the common good? Do you have any constructive thoughts on that or is it just impossible?

Why don't you ask those who are waging war against Christians...

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
Why don't you ask those who are waging war against Christians...

I appreciate your willingness to try and engage. I know it's a difficult discussion and can be frustrating. Thank you.

hedrick · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
I wonder to what extent it has actually been tried. For much of Christian history in the West, Christianity has dominated. In some ways, the early church is our primary example of how Christianity flourishes in a pluralistic context. How did they do that and did any if it resemble the six principles in the OP?

Not entirely. They did things like care for non-members in epidemics when doctors fled the city. But as far as I can tell the early church didn't exactly embrace pluralism. At least in part this was because of periodic conflicts with pagan society and government.

Of course early Christians were no more alike than we are.

Hazelelponi · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
I appreciate your willingness to try and engage. I know it's a difficult discussion and can be frustrating. Thank you.

The point is I have tried... people used to talk, discuss issues, come to agreements.

They stopped doing that, now it's just win by any means possible.

I don't know why. But live and let live is no longer the motto.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

hedrick said:
But as far as I can tell the early church didn't exactly embrace pluralism.

Do you think the six principles in the OP are suggesting we embrace pluralism, or are they suggesting a framework for Christian flourishing within a pluralistic context? I am thinking it is the later, but I might not be reading it clearly.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
The point is I have tried... people used to talk, discuss issues, come to agreements.

They stopped doing that, now it's just win by any means possible.

I don't know why. But live and let live is no longer the motto.

Do you think we Christians have contributed to this problem? Could we do better?

bèlla · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
Good point. Of course, for some folks diversity, diversity meaning not everyone is Christian, implies adversity. But, I agree. That is what we're really talking about.

Some people have difficulty functioning outside of their comfort zone. They need to be in environments where the majority are like themselves. I remember the first event I attended at the synagogue. We had a cookout. My daughter observed we were the only people of color. I never noticed.

There's an element of sameness promoted in Christian circles that bothers me. We have a hard time appreciating differences. We want every one to feel the same, think the same, etc. That's abnormal!

I agree. But to be fair, this growing diversity is new to some. Maybe it's going to take a couple/few generations for adjustment to take place? As you say, some thrive in a pluralistic context and aren't threatened. But, as a whole, Christian communities might not be used to not being the dominate worldview. Maybe it's just going to take time, time to forget it was once perceived as a culture war and not a mission?

One of the reasons many have difficulty coping with the changing climate is the absence of sameness. They can't handle being the minority. They can't prosper when others disagree. They want to be raptured because they don't know how to suffer.

When Paul said, I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. He's articulating a consciousness you encounter in Judaism that's lacking in Christianity. Jews know how to survive and thrive in adverse conditions. But many Christians struggle to do the same when their comfort is disturbed.

They couldn't handle an exile! Look at the Old Testament. How many Christians could endure the same? Consider the response to the pandemic. All the moans and complaints. Life happens. Roll on!

Ease has weakened the flock. You'll ill prepared for the challenges that lie ahead. You're accustomed to a way of being that's come and gone. You can't adapt because you've never had to. Your numbers are dwindling and you're seeing the other side of the coin and you hate it.

This is an interesting point. The fear of diversity in some is palpable, and no doubt they feel the need for support. Perhaps we need more leaders with the strong characteristics to stand erect to help encourage the weaker members? It just seems that so many exhibit this fear of difference. What do you think?

That cuts to the heart of our identity and it's difficult to change in adults. You need a measure of indifference that should be nurtured in childhood. It isn't the absence of care. It's the inability to be threatened by the lack of...fill in the blank.

You've created a monster. A Christian utopia. When the bible showed you otherwise. If you spent more time in the Old Testament you'd realize the truth. The only reason you embraced the lie is because you wanted it. Until you acknowledge your desire for ease and acceptance, you'll never change.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

hedrick · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
Do you think the six principles in the OP are suggesting we embrace pluralism, or are they suggesting a framework for Christian flourishing within a pluralistic context? I am thinking it is the later, but I might not be reading it clearly.

It's really hard to know what individual Christians thought and did in the early church. We see mostly writings of leaders, and those leaders could well have been more interested in preserving the distinction between Christians and others that ordinary members were. For example, some historical work on the relationship between Christians and Jews shows that there was far more interaction and joint worship than the leaders wanted, though leaders on both sides eventually managed to stop it. But as far as I can tell, the writings we have from the early church do not have the same tone as the OP.

section9+1 · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
Living at peace and working for the common good does not mean we're doing something wrong. It means we reflect the love God has for the world, in spite of those who live contrary to God's will. God sends the rain and sunshine on all, and we reflect that.

You don't remain out of the world in practice. You share the same space, resources, time, etc. It's that common good that is of interest here.

What is common good?

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

bèlla said:
You've created a monster. A Christian utopia. When the bible showed you otherwise. If you spent more time in the Old Testament you'd realize the truth. The only reason you embraced the lie is because you wanted it. Until you acknowledge your desire for ease and acceptance, you'll never change.

Great thoughts!

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

section9+1 said:
What is common good?

The things all humans need and share in common. Things like space, time, resources, governments, etc. There are private goods, and then goods we share. The two do overlap, but we don't live in a vacuum, or in perfect isolation. Does that help?

section9+1 · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
The things all humans need and share in common. Things like space, time, resources, governments, etc. There are private goods, and then goods we share. The two do overlap, but we don't live in a vacuum, or in perfect isolation. Does that help?

Who needs Christianity to work on that? Aren't there all kinds of secular and non-Christian charities and organizations working on that? Act justly, love mercy, fear God. If one can do that he can forget about all the rest of it. I lack the interest to chase after much more.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

section9+1 said:
Who needs Christianity to work on that? Aren't there all kinds of secular and non-Christian charities and organizations working on that? Act justly, love mercy, fear God. If one can do that he can forget about all the rest of it. I lack the interest to chase after much more.

I'm a bit surprised by your response, but maybe I shouldn't be.

How do you love your neighbor as yourself? What does that mean, to you? If your neighbor is in need, what is your response to that?

GooFYone · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
How can Christians and Christian communities flourish in a pluralistic setting, contributing to the common good of all within that setting, without becoming isolated and thus ineffective or becoming relativistic and thus ineffective?

This account comes from For the Life of the World:Theology That Makes a Difference by Miroslav Volf and Matthew Croasman (BrazosPress; Grand Rapids, Michigan; 2019; pp. 104-107).

"What are some key elements of a Christian account of flourishing life that allow those who embrace it to live in peace and pursue common good in pluralistic settings, and to do so not only notwithstanding its claim to be true for every human and the entire world, but also largely because of it?"

1. Trinitarian monotheism: "...God is the source not just of the unity of the world but also of all the stunning diversity in it. Since, for Christians, the one God is the Holy Trinity, God is internally differentiated. Difference is not secondary, subsequent to unity; difference is equiprimordial with unity."

2. God is Unconditional Love: "God is not a mere omnipotent force. Neither is God a mere universal lawgiver. The central attribute of God is unconditional love...God brings all creatures into being and keeps them in being...Even when humans fail to live according to the law of love, God seeks to mend the world and bring it to its intended fullness so it can become what God created it to be: our home and God's home in one."

3. Jesus Christ the Light of the World: All light and all truth, whether possessed by Christians or non-Christians, is the light of the Word and therefore Christ's light. This too is the consequence of monotheism: not just that the truth about flourishing life that Christ proclaimed is for all people, but also that in virtue of Christ all people always already possess some of that truth, that they have what Justin Martyr famously called "seeds of the Word" (First Apology). It cannot be otherwise: if the Word is the creator of everything, all genuine insights derive from God who was in Jesus Christ. All truth sought and found anywhere takes us, ultimately, to Christ as its origin."

4. Distinction between God's rule and human rule: The Christian church is a loose international network of communities whose primary allegiance isn't to the states of which they are citizens or to some yet-to-be-created global super-state but to the one God of all people. Political pluralism and transnationalism fit well with the Christian vision of flourishing life."

5. The moral equality of all human beings: "All people have equal dignity; all have the same rights and the same moral obligations; all have fallen short of those obligations. There are no moral outsiders according to the Christian faith."

6. Freedom of religion and areligion: "The call of Jesus Christ "Come, follow me!" presumes that an individual who hears it is free to follow or not. From the earliest beginnings, it was clear that faith is either embraced freely or not at all: one believes with the heart, which is to say not by outward conformity to ambient influences or in reaction to outside dictates backed by overwhelming force but with the very core of one's being. Behind the stress on embracing faith freely lies the conviction that every person has the responsibility for the basic direction of his or her life."

The authors believe that these six principles are foundational to the Christian faith and if we embrace them we can nurture a culture of respect, live peaceably with others who differ from us, and create a space to live and dispute with other worldviews while flourishing together.

Thoughts?

Hi. Your post is so exhausting with big words and random intellect and yet the only thing you are asking is “Did Jesus prosper in the world. “

Let’s be honest with ourselves, Jesus was and still is, rejected by the whole world.

hedrick · Nov 24, 2020

I think one of the problems with the OP is that Christianity since the very beginning has had this idea that The World is evil, and we are to be separated from it. I'm not sure this was universal, but you see it in several NT books. I don't know whether it was inherited from Judaism or not, but large parts of Judaism felt the same way. Look at the Maccabees for an example, of for that matter even Ezra and Nehemiah.

You can be separated from The World, but still perform mission in it. But I think that results in a rather different feel in our activities from a more positive view of others.

You'll get lots of debate over where Jesus fit in this. Or for that matter, Paul.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

GooFYone said:
Hi. Your post is so exhausting with big words and random intellect and yet the only thing you are asking is “Did Jesus prosper in the world. “

Let’s be honest with ourselves, Jesus was and still is, rejected by the whole world.

Thank you for posting. I'm sorry the OP came across as it did to you. Let me say, welcome to CF. :wave:

Hopefully you will find other threads on the forum are more to your liking.

The point of the thread, at least what I was hoping for, was to have a discussion on how Christians might live out the faith in contexts where many others are not Christian, and do so in such a way that benefits everyone. It is true that many reject Christianity. But I don't think that means we cannot live in peace with others, as far as we are able, and even be of significant benefit to everyone, even in spite of their rejection of Christianity.

At any rate, I hope you enjoy the forums.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

hedrick said:
I think one of the problems with the OP is that Christianity since the very beginning has had this idea that The World is evil, and we are to be separated from it. I'm not sure this was universal, but you see it in several NT books. I don't know whether it was inherited from Judaism or not, but large parts of Judaism felt the same way. Look at the Maccabees for an example, of for that matter even Ezra and Nehemiah.

You can be separated from The World, but still perform mission in it. But I think that results in a rather different feel in our activities from a more positive view of others.

You'll get lots of debate over where Jesus fit in this. Or for that matter, Paul.

Sure, the "world" is often used to indicate a way of living that is contrary to God's will. On the other hand, the Son came because God loves the world and is ultimately reconciling all things to himself through the Son. The church is called to be a part of that process.

I don't read the OP as asking us to compromise that, or reject the reality that the world is in need of reconciliation. I read the OP as saying we live in a pluralistic context, that is how things stand, and there are fundamental principles to aid us in navigating that context without compromise.

section9+1 · Nov 24, 2020

Sometimes I think the greatest adversaries of Christianity are its scholars. That's being maybe too hard, but it sure seems like human nature to take something fairly simple and complicate it to the extent that everyone is quickly confused. Or maybe that's Pharisee nature.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

section9+1 said:
Sometimes I think the greatest adversaries of Christianity are its scholars. That's being maybe too hard, but it sure seems like human nature to take something fairly simple and complicate it to the extent that everyone is quickly confused. Or maybe that's Pharisee nature.

It's interesting that you make this point. The authors make that same critique. What they were hoping to do was offer some practical guidance for Christians in their everyday interactions with non-Christians. I take it, you say they did not succeed!

section9+1 · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
It's interesting that you make this point. The authors make that same critique. What they were hoping to do was offer some practical guidance for Christians in their everyday interactions with non-Christians. I take it, you say they did not succeed!

No; I don't think they did. There's a lot of practical guidance already given in the bible. Whenever I read 6 points to do this or ten points to do that or 15 points to whatever, I tend to look the other way.

Christian flourishing in a pluralistic setting

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