Salvation and Calvinists

Aussie Pete said:

We need to know what the Lord Jesus said, not what various schools of thought think that He meant. Don't worry about predestination. Jesus saves, not the "right" theology. Lord Jesus said that the one who said, "God be merciful to me a sinner" was made right with God.

If you are not one of the elect then you will have no interest in salvation. The fact that you care at all gives you 1,000 points in God's eyes. No one knows who is predestined and who is not. May I suggest that you read this:

The Way - Christian Life Frankston

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That article is horrible

Perhaps you would care to elaborate. "Horrible" not exactly a scriptural refutation of the content. If you are referring to the style, I'm inclined to agree. The person who wrote it had a unique and old fashioned style (he passed away several years ago). I find Spurgeon's sermons difficult to read for that reason. However, I agree with the article's content 100%. Feel free to point out where it is unscriptural and I will endeavour to respond.

FreeGrace2 said:

You mean the 2 documents you referenced?

I didn't see any verses that say that salvation is by election.

Don't you have any verses on the tip of your tongue that you can give at a moment's notice?

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Again you demonstrate WHY you cannot be taken seriously.
In the history of mankind there was never ONE person saved
who was not first "chosen" or "elected" to be part of "His sheep"
and yet you pretend (to yourself) that you have found a loophole.
You are hilarious. Not serious, but hilariously self deluded.


Or... prove me wrong.
Name ONE PERSON in the history of mankind
who was saved but NOT "chosen" or "elected"
before the foundation of the world.


Do you now SEE why you cannot be taken seriously?
No... of course you were NEVER MEANT to "see".


Jim

Spiritual Jew said:

Are you pleased with your belief that God creates a majority of people with no opportunity to be saved and who are doomed from birth to suffer eternal torment?

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It is not a matter of what "my belief" is, but rather what
the BIBLE teaches.


Am I pleased the BIBLE teaches that (because of Adam's sin)
ALL MEN (every single one) is born spiritually dead and a slave
in Satan's "Kingdom of Babylon", destined to the SAME FIRE as
Satan and all his demons [Mat 25:41]


No, I am not "pleased" with that reality.
But I accept God's Plan of salvation because He is God
and, as the CREATOR is able to do what He will with the created.


Am I pleased the BIBLE teaches that God, wanting to have
a people for Himself, "chose" or "elected" SOME of the lost
and provided a Savior to PAY for their sins so that they would
not have to endure eternal torment, but could receive eternal
life... yes, I am VERY PLEASED with that reality.


Does that not please you?
Would you rather that God left EVERYONE to remain in Satan's
Kingdom and destined to eternal torment? Would it make you "feel"
better if EVERYONE remained in Satan's Kingdom and destined to hell?

Do you enjoy that about your version of God?

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There is no "version" of God.
There is the Biblical Truth revealed about God and His
salvation plan and there are all manner of heresies made
by men to deny that Biblical Truth.

God is hate, right?

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Do you think that a God that SAVES some of those
destined to eternal torment is "hate"... I fail to follow
your reasoning. That is "love", or maybe you can explain
why SAVING SOME is (in your mind) God being "hateful"?

Isn't that what John said in 1 John 4:8?
He said something to the effect that God hates most people because He is hate. I may not be quoting that exactly right, but it's something like that, right?

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1Jn 4:6
We [the elect] are of God:
he [the elect] that knoweth God heareth us [the elect];
he that is not of God [not of the elect] heareth not us [the elect].
Hereby know we [the elect] the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.


In other words... we can tell the unsaved "tares", and those
OUTSIDE the church, by their "fruit" of not loving the Saints.


7 Beloved [the elect], let us [the elect] love one another:
for love is of God; and every one that loveth [the elect]
is born of God [is part of the elect], and knoweth God.


In other words, the elect love each other because we are
born of God and we know God.


8 He that loveth not [the elect] knoweth not God;
[is not part of the elect] for God is love.


In other words, the unsaved "tares" in the church and those
lost souls OUTSIDE the church will NOT love the elect... as Jesus
told us [the elect] they hated Him... and they will hate us also.


You see... in order to understand any passage of Scripture
you must FIRST be able to discern the CONTEXT of that Scripture.
The Bible separates all of mankind into three (3) groups, so when
you read a passage you must be able to discern WHICH of those
groups is the focus of the Scripture... or else you have error.


(1) The saved "wheat" in the church, sown by God.
(2) The unsaved "tares" in the church, sown by Satan.
(3) The lost souls OUTSIDE the church (also "children of Satan")


In the passage you cited, the CONTEXT is identified by the [blue].
However, if you cannot discern WHO is in view in each verse then you
have no hope of ever understanding the MEANING of that verse.

How about 1 John 2:1-2 that talks about how Jesus didn't just die for our sins but also the sins of the whole elect world. Again, I may not have quoted that exactly right.

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1Jn 2:1 My little children [the elect], these things write
I unto you [the elect], that ye [the elect] sin not. And if any
[elect] man sin, we [the elect] have an advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous:


In other words, the elect have Jesus as an advocate.
However, the unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan) and those
OUTSIDE the church (also "children of Satan") do not have
Jesus as their advocate... I hope you are now beginning to
understand WHY we must first understand the CONTEXT of
a verse before we can hope to understand the MEANING.


1Jn 2:2 And he [Jesus] is the propitiation for our [elect's] sins:
and not for ours only [only the Jews the letter was written to],
but also for the sins of the whole world [both Jew and Gentile].


In other words, Jesus was the propitiation for not only the Jews
but also for the "other sheep" [John 10:16] who would be saved.
Remember, before Jesus came God was ONLY saving the Jews.
After Jesus came God was saving BOTH Jew and Gentile.
Jew + Gentile = "the whole world".


Joh 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


If we pretend "the whole world" includes the unsaved "tares"
in the church, sown by Satan and destined to the same fate
as Satan... or those lost souls OUTSIDE the church who deny
Christ and His Gospel... then we are only showing that we do
not understand the CONTEXT of the passage and have
no hope of ever understanding the MEANING.

And then there's Acts 17:30-31 where it talks about God commanding some people in some places to repent and that He has set a day to judge some of the world by the guy He has appointed or something along those lines. Right?

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The fact that Jesus was resurrected or He awill judge all the unsaved
does not negate the fact there are three groups in the world and
you cannot hope to understand the MEANING of any passage
when you CONFLATE those groups... because you have not
correctly understood the CONTEXT of the passage.


Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which
are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Remember, the ONLY measure of Biblical Truth is to find
harmony with ALL RELATED passages. So, whenever you
find a verse/passage where your "interpretation" contradicts
other RELATED Scriptures, then you know your "interpretation"
is incorrect, since there are no contradictions in the Word of God.


BOTTOM LINE:
It is a shame that YOU THINK God is hateful because He
"chose" or "elected" to save SOME of those destined to hell,
and not ALL of them. However, Romans 9:14-24 makes it very
clear that it is GOD who is the potter... and HE gets to decide
who He will save, and who He will leave unsaved.


And Mark 4:11-12 reminds us that SOME are given understanding
while other men are NEVER MEANT to be saved... they were not
meant to "perceive" or "understand" or "be converted" or have
"their sins forgiven". When men were not meant to have their
sins forgiven - then they were NEVER MEANT to be saved.


When God decides to make some men "vessels of mercy"
and others "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" [Rom 9]
that means some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved. And,
if this Biblical reality "offends" you... that is just your "fruit".


This is all PART of the Gospel of the Bible.
If you think that makes God "hateful" then you demonstrate
the "fruit" of not being "elect". Remember, Jesus PROMISED
we would be able to know the unsaved by their "fruit"... which
includes BOTH bad behavior and heretical doctrines.


Jim

FreeGrace2 said:

Could you PLEASE specifically identify the exact words that support your claims in these 2 verses?

65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

How do you make the LEAP from "enabled" to "elected"?

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Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN
can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked
no more with him.


Why are you so hard of hearing?


Jesus said NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father
first "draws" them. [John 6:44]


And Jesus said ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him,
and He would lose NONE of them [John 6:37,39]


What part of NO MAN and ALL MEN and lose NONE
do you not understand?


When His disciples REALIZED that salvation was limited
to those God "elected" or "chose" to draw to Christ,
they immediately abandoned Him.


And I already explained WHY they could not accept
His teaching of salvation by "election".


Why can YOU not accept His teaching of salvation
to ONLY those God "chooses" or "elects" to save?
You are like those who abandoned Jesus when they
realized they could not save themselves.


This is just ONE of many Scriptures that teach the Gospel
of the Bible is a monergistic Gospel and not a synergistic
heresy where MEN decide they can save themselves.


Why is this all "news" to you?
This is all Christian theology 101.
The most basic and essential elements
of the Gospel of the Bible.


Jim


BTW... what translation are you reading that speaks of "enabling"?


(KJV) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


(LITV) And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me except it is given to him from My Father.


(YLT) and he said, `Because of this I have said to you--No one is able to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father.'



Joh 6:65 AndG2532 he said,G3004 ThereforeG1223 G5124 saidG2046 I unto you,G5213 thatG3754 no manG3762 canG1410 comeG2064 untoG4314 me,G3165 exceptG3362 it wereG5600 givenG1325 unto himG846 ofG1537 myG3450 Father.G3962


The word translated "given" in the verses above (Strong's G1325)
is used over 400 times in the New Testament ... and it is ALWAYS
translated as "give", "gave" or "given".... NEVER as "enabled" as
you pretend.


What translation are you reading... or are you just making up words
to suit your argument?


.

FreeGrace2 said:

Oh, now I see. You've been corrected finally by one of your own.

And I agree that all the saved are elected. Elected for service.

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No... "elected" to salvation, and HERE is the process:


Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according
to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that
he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover
whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom
he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.


Now, you can PRETEND that "election" is not to salvation
(being "justified" and "glorified") but you are only pretending
to yourself. And this is just another reason WHY you cannot
be taken seriously.


Jim

FreeGrace2 said:

Rather, if YOU want to be taken seriously, YOU need to provide at least 1 verse that actually SAYS that salvation is by election.

otoh, I can and have provided nearly 2 dozen verses that very plainly say that salvation and eternal life is by faith.

We are saved by faith, not by election.

Aren't you aware of Eph 2;8,9? Or Acts 16:31?

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As I said, I have already provided you with about TWO DOZEN
verses teaching we are "elected" or "chosen" by God to be
saved before the foundation of the world.


You can continue to intentionally IGNORE all those verses i
if you want... but that is WHY you cannot be taken seriously,
you IGNORE all the verses that contradict your false "gospel"
of synergism. And then you PRETEND the verses were not
already provided to you. Nothing new here.


Again, when you can NAME one person who was saved
without first being "chosen" or "elected" then you can
expect to be taken seriously. Until then....


Jim


BTW.... while I realize this is way over your head,
the (Biblical) fact is that we are actually SAVED when
we are "elected" or "chosen" BEFORE THE WORLD was created
because God cannot fail to accomplish what He has purposed.


.

Hammster said:

There are no verses that say salvation is by election. And to my knowledge, there are no Reformed teachings that say that.

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OK, let's just unpack this, then.

Being a Calvinist, that would mean that you accept T.U.L.I.P.

The "U" stands for "unconditional election". So then, what are people unconditionally elected TO, or FOR? Can you explain that?

It is nearly universally understood that when election is mentioned in evangelistic circles, the subject is salvation.

From this website:
What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism

6. UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
If all of us are so depraved that we cannot come to God without being born again by the irresistible grace of God, and if this particular grace is purchased by Christ on the cross, then it is clear that the salvation of any of us is owing to God’s election.

Maybe you will disagree with John Piper. He didn't vote for Trump either.

However, the point is, Calvinists equate election with being chosen for salvation. And unconditionally at that.

Do you understand what "unconditionally" means? It means there are NO conditions.

Is salvation without conditions? Is that your position?

The Bible is clear, as you know, that we are saved by grace, THROUGH FAITH.

Faith IS a condition. THE condition.

So, again, the question. Why do you accept the tenets of Calvinism when they OPPOSE the Bible's teaching?

Hammster said:

My challenge, which is still unmet, is for you to name a Calvinist that thinks we are saved by grace through election.

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My last post to you quoted from a website run by John Piper.

Challenge met.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Could you PLEASE specifically identify the exact words that support your claims in these 2 verses?

65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

How do you make the LEAP from "enabled" to "elected"?

5thKingdom said:

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN
can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked
no more with him.


Why are you so hard of hearing?

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Well, first off, you seem hard of SEEING. I asked how you make the LEAP from "enabled" to "elected", and you ignored it. I will take that as you are totally UNABLE to do it. You have NO IDEA how to explain it.

Jesus said NO MAN can come to Him unless the Father
first "draws" them. [John 6:44]

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Why don't you include the very next verse? It EXPLAINS who will be drawn:
" It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

There it is, in black and white. Those who have listened (heard) and learned from the Father's teaching COMES to Jesus.

Do you see volition in listening and learning? Maybe not, but it's there, just the same.

And Jesus said ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Him,
and He would lose NONE of them [John 6:37,39]

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The listeners and the learners. John 6:45

What part of NO MAN and ALL MEN and lose NONE
do you not understand?

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The REAL question: what part of "listen and learn" do you not understand?

When His disciples REALIZED that salvation was limited
to those God "elected" or "chose" to draw to Christ,
they immediately abandoned Him.

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Rather, they weren't interesting in listening or learning. Why isn't that obvious to you?

And I already explained WHY they could not accept
His teaching of salvation by "election".

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That's NOT what He taught. You are terribly mistaken.

Salvation is by grace THROUGH FAITH. Not election.

Why can YOU not accept His teaching of salvation
to ONLY those God "chooses" or "elects" to save?

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I'll tell you clearly. That was NOT Jesus' teaching. As I've been showing you all along.

Why aren't you listening and learning?

You are like those who abandoned Jesus when they
realized they could not save themselves.

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What a stupid comment to make to another believer. Just totally stupid. It seems you are insinuating that I think that I can save myself which is total bunk, and that I've abandoned Jesus.

This is just ONE of many Scriptures that teach the Gospel
of the Bible is a monergistic Gospel and not a synergistic
heresy where MEN decide they can save themselves.

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Again, Mr. NOT listening and NOT learning: I don't believe that anyone can save themself. None.

Why is this all "news" to you?
This is all Christian theology 101.
The most basic and essential elements
of the Gospel of the Bible.

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Actually, from your own posts, you have FLUNKED Christian theology 101.

I recommend an ophthalmologist and an ENT doctor check out your systems. They seem out of whack. Spiritually, that is.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Oh, now I see. You've been corrected finally by one of your own.

And I agree that all the saved are elected. Elected for service.

5thKingdom said:

No... "elected" to salvation, and HERE is the process:

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You really aren't listening or learning. The other poster CORRECTED you. He quoted Eph 2:8 to PROVE that you are off base.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good
to them that love God, to them who are the called according
to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that
he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover
whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom
he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.

Click to expand...

OK, now show me where "election" is found in this passage.

Now, you can PRETEND that "election" is not to salvation
(being "justified" and "glorified") but you are only pretending
to yourself. And this is just another reason WHY you cannot
be taken seriously.

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I suggest that you are the Great Pretender here. Election isn't even mentioned in this passage.

But that seems to be your style. You quote verses that DO NOT say what you claim.

5thKingdom said:

As I said, I have already provided you with about TWO DOZEN
verses teaching we are "elected" or "chosen" by God to be
saved before the foundation of the world.

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You haven't shown ANY verses that say we are saved by election. None. Great batting average! lol

You can continue to intentionally IGNORE all those verses

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Here is what I CAN do: reject YOUR very faulty interpretation of all those verses you keep quoting. NONE of them says salvation is by election. ZERO.

Hammster said:

Sola Fide. That’s one of the five solas of Reformed Theology.

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Huh? What kind of "answer" is this? It answers nothing.

This is what I said:
"The "U" stands for "unconditional election". So then, what are people unconditionally elected TO, or FOR? Can you explain that?"

So, again, what are people elected TO, or FOR?

Do you agree or disagree with Piper?

Hammster said:

No, because he never once says that we are saved by grace through election.

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Go back and look at the quote from his website. You can deny all you want, but he clearly believes salvation is by election.

Or maybe you can address the quote I provided and explain what he "really" meant then.

Can you do that?

The issue never was finding a Calvinist who claims "saved by grace through election".

The issue is Calvinists who believe that election is to salvation.

You're trying to move the goal posts by twisting Eph 2:8 into something else. I never even suggested any Calvinist does that.

Every Calvinist, with the possible exception of that other poster, knows and quotes Eph 2:8. But every Calvinist I've either dealt with or read believes that election is to salvation.

Maybe you're different.

Hammster said:

I thought you knew. Sola Fide means faith alone. Piper holds to that. So do I and every other Calvinist.

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Maybe you should read more of Piper's website. And I copied exactly what was on his website.

Did you read it?