I believe OSAS -BUT-

Hmmm! said:

Why do equally informed people hold opposing views then?

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Lucifer - fully informed.
Gabriel - fully informed.

Made two different choices... because fully informed does not mean "infinite knowledge" and both had free will.

If the facts are so simple as "See! that is a red hot stove" then neither one chooses to put his hand on the stove.

Hmmm! said:

And please don't just say that anyone holding a different viewpoint to you is wrong - that wouldn't answer my question.

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You are trying to reduce free will down to "programming". Two people from the same house, attending the same schools, make two different choices... Cain vs Able.

On person sets himself up as his own sort of "god" passing judgment on all around him as to what he deems to be wisest -- while the other chooses to trust in the Lord with all his heart.

When authority in the church says to choose "A" -- well in Acts 17:11 the people decide to study the Bible and see if Paul was speaking the truth --- "instead"... which amounted to "B".

friend of said:

But, I still believe in apostasy. I believe the Lord will keep each of His redeemed by His power. But if someone willingly turns away from Jesus they can be lost. I think there are enough verses to justify this position. My question: Is this stance irreconcilable? Am I just schizophrenic?

Blessings

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I actually think you nailed it. Sin won't get us disowned but returning to unbelief will. That's what the author of Hebrews is genuinely concerned about in chapter 3:



All believers will be saved. But it's possible for a believer to stop believing (Luke 8:13) and God's promises of the resurrection don't apply to unbelievers.

St_Worm2 said:

Hello Friend of, since we know that the Lord does not contradict Himself, what do we do with a passage like this one (that speaks so directly to this topic) if what you believe is true?

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
All that the Father gives Me will come to me and .. of ALL that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.​

Thanks!

--David

John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
.​

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As much as I wish OSAS is true, I don't believe it is. Anyhow, why does Jesus say: "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day"?

Why the "it" and not "them"? I've never understood that. Is there something we are missing?

zoidar said:

As much as I wish OSAS is true, I don't believe it is. Anyhow, why does Jesus say: "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day"?

Why the "it" and not "them"? I've never understood that. Is there something we are missing?

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Yeah,

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

You can`t lose your salvation unless you make a conscious and deliberate decision to wreck it. Even then God is liable to shake up your life in ways that will bring you to your knees. It`s no small thing. If a person is a bastard then God will just let them go. If a person isn`t a bastard then turning away from God is trouble that will just wreck your life in ways that you will never see coming.

In answer to your question. Human beings are called creatures in several places in the New Testament. I think Jesus was referring to that.

zoidar said:

As much as I wish OSAS is true, I don't believe it is. Anyhow, why does Jesus say: "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day"?

Why the "it" and not "them"? I've never understood that. Is there something we are missing?

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John 6
39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

The body "it" is raised up.

1 Cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body

BobRyan said:

Lucifer - fully informed.
Gabriel - fully informed.

Made two different choices... because fully informed does not mean "infinite knowledge" and both had free will.

If the facts are so simple as "See! that is a red hot stove" then neither one chooses to put his hand on the stove.



You are trying to reduce free will down to "programming". Two people from the same house, attending the same schools, make two different choices... Cain vs Able.

On person sets himself up as his own sort of "god" passing judgment on all around him as to what he deems to be wisest -- while the other chooses to trust in the Lord with all his heart.

When authority in the church says to choose "A" -- well in Acts 17:11 the people decide to study the Bible and see if Paul was speaking the truth --- "instead"... which amounted to "B".

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I found that totally meaningless.

Hmmm! said:

I found that totally meaningless.

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illustrates the problem

BobRyan said:

John 6
39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

The body "it" is raised up.

1 Cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body

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It fits with "body", but does Jesus mention the body elsewhere in the Gospels?

Error

zoidar said:

Why the "it" and not "them"? I've never understood that. Is there something we are missing?

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"It" points back to "all".

ChetSinger said:

All believers will be saved.

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I agree.
None of those that the Father has given to Christ will be lost ( John 6:37-40 ).

ChetSinger said:

But it's possible for a believer to stop believing (Luke 8:13) and God's promises of the resurrection don't apply to unbelievers.

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Who are those who have believed for a while and then fall away?
Are they not "tares" who were sown in the field of Christ's "wheat", who do not bring forth fruit to perfection?
Read Matthew 13 carefully, my friend.
Did the Lord Jesus not reveal the truths of both the parables of the tares and the sower privately to His disciples when they asked Him?

See Matthew 13:3-8 ( parable ) = Matthew 13:18-23 ( explained ).
Matthew 13:24-30 ( parable ) = Matthew 13:36-43 ( explained ).

Navair2 said:

I agree.
None of those that the Father has given to Christ will be lost ( John 6:37-40 ).

Who are those who have believed for a while and then fall away?
Are they not "tares" who were sown in the field of Christ's "wheat", who do not bring forth fruit to perfection?
Read Matthew 13 carefully, my friend.
Did the Lord Jesus not reveal the truths of both the parables of the tares and the sower privately to His disciples when they asked Him?

See Matthew 13:3-8 ( parable ) = Matthew 13:18-23 ( explained ).
Matthew 13:24-30 ( parable ) = Matthew 13:36-43 ( explained ).

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No, none of the seeds in Luke 8 are weeds. Weeds are sown by the enemy. None of the seeds in Luke 8 are sown by the enemy.

ChetSinger said:

No, none of the seeds in Luke 8 are weeds. Weeds are sown by the enemy. None of the seeds in Luke 8 are sown by the enemy.

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" Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience." ( Luke 8:11-15 ).

I think that a big part of this debate is that humans can't ascertain when Salvation takes place.

From the Parable of the Sower, we see two "soils" that readily received the Word (stony & thorny), but failed to thrive sometime after.

For me, two questions spring to mind (NPI),

1. Does "reception of the Word" equal Salvation?
2. How long can their enThusiasm* last before it peters out? Is it fairly immediate, or can it be a long time in human terms?

Also, God recognized both David's [2 Samuel 12:13] and Ahab's [1 Kings 21:17-29] repentance, but only one of them continued in it. Three years later, 1 Kings 22:20 shows that God was still not pleased with Ahab. David was considered "a man after God's own Heart" up until the day he died.

*The etymology of enthusiasm is "be inspired or possessed by a god" (based on theos ‘god’). EnThusiasm < "...by God."

St_Worm2 said:

Also, it's important to take note that the "I LOSE NOTHING" from John 6 is the Lord speaking to us from His perspective, not from ours, so unless you believe that He was exaggerating, or that He perhaps did not know what He was saying when He spoke those words, then it seems to me that the only thing left to think is that there truly are both wheat AND tares in the church, some who truly are sons of the Kingdom, and others who truly are sons of the evil one (who were planted in the church by the devil) and are not saved .. e.g. Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43. (even though they may honestly believe that they are, as we just saw earlier in the Judgment scene .. Matthew 7:22-23).

God bless you!

--David

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us​

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It's simple. . .the tares were not actually given by the Father to the Son, as evidenced by their apostasy.
.