Today in paradise

Albion

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When a saved Christian dies, do they go directly to heaven, or as some say, stay in the grave... or in some other intermediary?

Or is there variety in what happens?

The orthodox answer is that they go to an immediate judgment, and then to either heaven or hell. In Roman Catholic theology the first group pass through "Purgatory."

There is a minority of Christian churches that teach "soul sleep" by which the soul or spirit is said to remain asleep until called forth at the end of this Age for the Final Judgment...and then it's either heaven or hell. This POV is considered unorthodox and, in fact, is often considered to be a mark of a cult.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Was Jesus saying, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me . . .” (meaning that “today” is when the thief would be in paradise)? Or was He saying, “I tell you the truth today, you will be with me . . .” (meaning that “today” is when Jesus was speaking”)?
I suppose experience of ancient Greek idiom would help to discern that?
How the ancient Greeks would have commonly expressed themselves at the time may may have made the difference clear.

✝️Any ancient Greek idiom experts here?
 
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eleos1954

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The orthodox answer is that they go to an immediate judgment, and then to either heaven or hell. In Roman Catholic theology the first group pass through "Purgatory."

There is a minority of Christian churches that teach "soul sleep" by which the soul or spirit is said to remain asleep until called forth at the end of this Age for the Final Judgment...and then it's either heaven or hell. This POV is considered unorthodox and, in fact, is often considered to be a mark of a cult.

Was Jesus part of a cult?

11 After He (Jesus) had said this, He told them, Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going there to wake him up.12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better. 13 They thought that Jesus was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.

14So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.
 
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eleos1954

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The term, as normally used today and as I used it, is different from the historic use. The latter referred to any devotional society or movement.

no matter .... Jesus plainly referred to death as sleep ... and I'm sure He knows the difference and wasn't just playing around with words.

Some day everyone will be resurrected .... so makes sense He would refer to it as a sleep.

The term, as normally used today and as I used it, is different from the historic use.

and ... what are those differences?
 
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disciple Clint

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Luke 23:42-43
New International Version
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

When a saved Christian dies, do they go directly to heaven, or as some say, stay in the grave... or in some other intermediary?

Or is there variety in what happens?
Or maybe what Jesus said was “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.” note how that change in punctuation totally changes the meaning.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Or maybe what Jesus said was “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.” note how that change in punctuation totally changes the meaning
I'm guessing that the translators put a comma in to make the meaning clear according to their study of how the ancient Greeks used language and whether they used a particular phrasing in that way.
It's not a matter of just a literal translation of words... the use of idiom from those times needs to be understood.
I don't pretend to know myself, but I'm sure the translators must study and debate these things? There's got to be more to translation than just looking up individual words?
 
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disciple Clint

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I'm guessing that the translators put a comma in to make the meaning clear according to their study of how the ancient Greeks used language and whether they used a particular phrasing in that way.
It's not a matter of just a literal translation of words... the use of idiom from those times needs to be understood.
I don't pretend to know myself, but I'm sure the translators must study and debate these things? There's got to be more to translation than just looking up individual words?
It is hard to absolutely certain when translating anytime anything is translated it is subject to error for many different reasons and certainly not limited to the epidemiology.
 
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BobRyan

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I'm guessing that the translators put a comma in to make the meaning clear according to their study of how the ancient Greeks used language and whether they used a particular phrasing in that way.

Indeed - they had a preference and set the punctuation according to that. But Luke did not have it in his text.

So then what is the question/request that is put to Christ according to Luke? "remember me WHEN you come into your kingdom"

And in John 21 when Christ says He has not yet been to the Father even at the point of resurrection -- is he correct? I assume we all accept what Christ said.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Luke 23:42-43
New International Version
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

When a saved Christian dies, do they go directly to heaven, or as some say, stay in the grave... or in some other intermediary?

Or is there variety in what happens?

As far as what Jesus was talking about, Jesus' words effectively mean that the thief would be counted among the righteous. "Paradise" wasn't "heaven" in the modern understanding, but the place of the righteous dead.

Essentially there was one "place" for the dead, She'ol, translated as Hades in the New Testament. We can think of it like this, She'ol was split into two halves, the place of the righteous dead, called Gan-Eden in Hebrew (literally "Garden of Eden") also called Paradeisos ("Paradise") in Greek; the Greek word was borrowed from ancient Avestan, pairidaēza, meaning "an enclosed garden", and the Greek paradeisos had the same meaning, "garden". And on the other hand there was the place of the wicked dead, Ge-Hinnom, ("Valley of Hinnom") which becomes Gehenna when written in Greek. The Hinnom Valley is a very real terrestrial location, located outside of Old Jerusalem even today. In valley was associated with horrible things in Jewish tradition, as the Hinnom Valley was the center for the cult of Molech in ancient times, worshipers of Molech would offer living human sacrifices, most noteworthy being the sacrifice of infants. Jewish tradition says that worshipers of Molech would take a bronze idol of Molech and burn it until it was red hot, then place a small child upon the open hands, literally cooking the child to death. So in Jewish tradition the Hinnom Valley was emblematic of death, despair, and fire.

So these concepts, Gan-Eden or Paradise, and Ge-Hinnom or Gehenna were the two experiences of death, one for the righteous and one for the wicked. When Jesus says, "You will be with Me in Paradise" He is telling the thief that he would be counted among the righteous, among Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the holy men and women of the past.

In traditional Christian teaching we believe in what is called the Harrowing of Hell (Hades), that is why the Apostles' Creed says "[Christ] descended into hell". In the original Latin it says "descendit ad inferos" or "descended to the lower regions" simply meaning "the place of the dead". What we mean is that Christ descended to the place of the dead, so He entered into She'ol or Hades and conquered it. Liberating the prisoners there, that is, the righteous saints of old.

Which is why one of the most common Christian icons is the Icon of the Anastasis (Resurrection) which depicts the Harrowing of Hell. Christ's descent into the place of the dead, crushing death and the devil beneath the fallen gates of Hades, liberating Adam and Eve from their sarcophagi, with the train of saints on His left and right.

khoraanas.jpg


And so, in Christ, death has lost its power, Hades has become impotent.

Thus St. Paul when speaking of this subject, speaks this way,

"So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him." - 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

The words Paul uses are interesting, what is translated as "be away from" and "at home with" are ekdēmeō and endēmeō respectively. They can literally mean "emigrate" and "immigrate". That is, to emigrate from the body and immigrate to the Lord.

Now, Paul doesn't really explain what he means here, but the implication that has always been understood historically is that for those whose hope is in Jesus, that between death and resurrection ("away from the body") means being present and at rest with Jesus. So that between death and resurrection we shall be with Christ, in some capacity. And since, of course, we believe and confess that Jesus ascended into the heavens, and is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory, that it is a sensible to say that we "go to heaven" at death. But it's not really about going somewhere, but going to Someone.

And this presence with the Lord, between death and resurrection, is seen as the foretaste, a partial experience, of the final and full reality--when God renews all things, makes all things whole, heals creation, etc. As the blessed hope of the Christian Church is Christ's return and the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting in the Age to Come, that world which shall never end. Right here on Terra Firma.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BobRyan

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I'm guessing that the translators put a comma in to make the meaning clear according to their study

Indeed commas were added many centuries later to insert the view/POV they held at that later date.

Paradise in the Bible is always heaven... where the Tree of Life and throne of God are. Which is why it is so instructive that Jesus said He had not yet been there - as of John 20:17 on the day He was resurrected.

2 Cor 12
2 I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Revelation 2
7 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God

Rev 21
And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life,
 
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