New Covenant - fulfilled?

jgr said:

God slew purebred Israelites by the thousands when they sinned.

Their DNA didn't save them.

Were they "favored"?

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Yes, and God can make them from rocks if He so chooses. Your point makes no sense, because God does not bow to your wims of who is deserving and who is not.

Timtofly said:

Israel is not Abraham's sole offspring, but Jacob's. Abraham had many nations from his seed. Technically the church is of Adam's seed, not just Abraham, and certainly not just Israel.

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I have no idea what you're trying to say. Can you do me a favor and tell me how you interpret these passages:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Spiritual Jew said:

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Can you do me a favor and tell me how you interpret these passages:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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Paul is saying, forget about Israel.

Paul is saying nor should we consider Ishmael, but Isaac.

I would add Esau was also despised. Israel can be to if they act like Esau did.

When humans start picking and choosing it goes against God and God's will.

Abraham's seed, all of it, will bless the world, even the seed that God "hates". It is based on Abraham's relationship with God, not the billions of offspring. Some will be hated by God, and some favored. But as a whole God sees them through Abraham corporately.

So salvation is not based in Abraham nor Israel, not even the Old Covenant given to Moses. At the time of Moses, this was already ancient history. The Jews of Paul's days were trying to live off of Abraham's blessing as the Covenant, but Paul said, "NO WAY".

It was Adam that brought sin into the world, and Jesus Christ would take it out. The Atonement had nothing to do with Abraham, Israel, nor the Old Covenant.

Then Paul says, that promise to Abraham, is now centered through Jesus Christ. You are grafted into the tree just like Abraham's seed was born into the tree. That is why the tree is not Israel, nor Abraham, and never was the OT as given to Moses with the Law. It was always Christ, and Abraham's seed were just natural branches, because they are, and always will be, God's chosen people. At least those God does not despise.

Not that I accept one can loose their salvation based on works, but clearly when it comes to being chosen for blessings, God can withhold blessings, but Atonement, no! God says Atonement is shed abroad to all people now. Gentiles are no different than Abraham's seed. Can you choose to reject God at the end of your life? Why not?

Is that you loosing it, or rejecting it? If you reject an item, you never had it. God never accepted your false acceptance, knowing you would reject at the end. Does God remind you through out your life, you will one day turn your back on God? The Atonement was given at one time in such a way it is impossible to loose.

Timtofly said:

Yes, and God can make them from rocks if He so chooses. Your point makes no sense, because God does not bow to your wims of who is deserving and who is not.

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Cite the Scripture where God made sinners from rocks.

How does God decide who is deserving?

Hint:

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Guojing said:

Future blessings include having all animals being Vegetarian

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Scripture?

jgr said:

Scripture?

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Isaiah 11:6, already quoted in that post to Michael

Guojing said:

Isaiah 11:6, already quoted in that post to Michael

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Do you understand that verse is about the removal of the curse?
When does that event occur?


Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

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BABerean2 said:

Do you understand that verse is about the removal of the curse?
When does that event occur?


Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

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Yes, that is the 2nd coming of Jesus, ushering in the millennial reign of Jesus on Earth.

As vs 19 indicates, that is when Israel's sins as a nation are corporately forgiven, when the entire nation believed in Jesus as their Messiah.

jgr said:

Cite the Scripture where God made sinners from rocks.

How does God decide who is deserving?

Hint:

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

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Stop misquoting me.

Guojing said:

Yes, that is the 2nd coming of Jesus, ushering in the millennial reign of Jesus on Earth.

As vs 19 indicates, that is when Israel's sins as a nation are corporately forgiven, when the entire nation believed in Jesus as their Messiah.

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Based on the passage below, do you believe modern Orthodox Jews are fireproof?
Is there a second chance at salvation in this passage?


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


The Gospel of Jesus Christ is about the salvation of individuals who place their faith in His sacrifice at Calvary.
There is no place in the New Testament where we find "corporate" salvation.


Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


.

Guojing said:

Isaiah 11:6, already quoted in that post to Michael

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There're no vegetables in Isaiah 11:6.

jgr said:

There're no vegetables in Isaiah 11:6.

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Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

This video shows the current nature of a lion.

Douggg said:

Isaiah 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

This video shows the current nature of a lion.

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Isaiah 35
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

How will no lion eat straw?

jgr said:

Isaiah 35
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

How will no lion eat straw?

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You are not even in the right chapter.

The lions will not be ravenous in that day.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Douggg said:

You are not even in the right chapter.

The lions will not be ravenous in that day.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

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I'm in the writings of Isaiah.

He didn't forget his previous reference to the lion.

Yes, if there's not a lion, it will not be ravenous.

If there were a lion, it would be ravenous for straw.

But it would not be carnivorous.

But there's no lion when we get to chapter 35.

Because the lion et al are Isaiah's spiritual symbols describing the Messianic age of the gospel.

The gospel with the power to fundamentally diminish and remove the bestial nature of humankind.

Repeated countless times through the ages since Calvary.

BABerean2 said:

Based on the passage below, do you believe modern Orthodox Jews are fireproof?
Is there a second chance at salvation in this passage?


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


The Gospel of Jesus Christ is about the salvation of individuals who place their faith in His sacrifice at Calvary.
There is no place in the New Testament where we find "corporate" salvation.


Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


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When Jesus return for Israel during the 2nd coming, the nation existing during that time will accept him as their Messiah.

So yes, all the Jews who are living during that time will have their sins forgiven, they are forgiven as part of belonging to the nation Israel.

This is similar to the OT system, where the High priest of Israel made the required annual sacrifice for the nation's sins in the Day of Atonement. If God accepts that sacrifice with fire, then the entire nation is forgiven.

Guojing said:

When Jesus return for Israel during the 2nd coming, the nation existing during that time will accept him as their Messiah.

So yes, all the Jews who are living during that time will have their sins forgiven, they are forgiven as part of belonging to the nation Israel.

This is similar to the OT system, where the High priest of Israel made the required annual sacrifice for the nation's sins in the Day of Atonement. If God accepts that sacrifice with fire, then the entire nation is forgiven.

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Does that forgiveness include the Baal worshipers, or will their fate be the same as it was during the time of Elijah?

Will this national forgiveness be based on national borders, or bloodline?

How do you get what you are saying to agree with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, or do you just ignore what Paul said?


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BABerean2 said:

Does that forgiveness include the Baal worshipers, or will their fate be the same as it was during the time of Elijah?

Will this national forgiveness be based on national borders, or bloodline?

How do you get what you are saying to agree with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, or do you just ignore what Paul said?


.

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I said all the Jews who are living during that time

Guojing said:

I said all the Jews who are living during that time

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Sammy Davis Jr. was a man of African ancestry who converted to Orthodox Judaism.
Would he be included if he was still alive?


Do you disagree with Paul's definition below of who is a "Jew"?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


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BABerean2 said:

Sammy Davis Jr. was a man of African ancestry who converted to Orthodox Judaism.
Would he be included if he was still alive?


Do you disagree with Paul's definition below of who is a "Jew"?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


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In this "But now" time period, yes, any Jew or Gentile can be saved, by believing in the gospel stated in 1 Cor 15:1-4

I was talking about "the age to come", which is a future time period