God permits evil because we need to know

We don't deserve credit for coming to Christ. We were brought to Him by His Father. God wants us to recognize our sin and His mercy.

Just keep reading your Bibles and hopefully you'll believe what you read!


Ephesians 1:4-5
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.


Matthew 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Exodus 33:17-20
17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. 20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Then God tells us again:

Romans 9: 14-18
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

JAL said:

How is that a rebuttal? You didn't prove the argument invalid. So you think heaven will be a place of suffering? (I sure hope not). Any Scripture to back this up?

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How have you established that "Certainly we'll have limited freedom" where is your proof for that statement. I could just as easily say that we will have full freedom because we are doing what we want to do which is to praise God.

disciple Clint said:

How have you established that "Certainly we'll have limited freedom" where is your proof for that statement.

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Actually I couldn't care less - I'm just tired of suffering and want it to end. If you want to insist that there are only two extremes:
(1) Radical freedom
(2) Zero freedom, robotic state
and thus no middle ground, I don't care to debate that point. I myself believe in a middle ground (limited freedom) but it's a moot point.

I could just as easily say that we will have full freedom because we are doing what we want to do which is to praise God.

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Ok that's just a semantic difference, a distinction without a difference. You're saying we will have holy desires in heaven, which is what I said from the getgo. You have no rebuttal after all.

JAL said:

Actually I couldn't care less - I'm just tired of suffering and want it to end. If you want to insist that there are only two extremes:
(1) Radical freedom
(2) Zero freedom, robotic state
and thus no middle ground, I don't care to debate that point. I myself believe in a middle ground (limited freedom) but it's a moot point.

Ok that's just a semantic difference, a distinction without a difference. You're saying we will have holy desires in heaven, which is what I said from the getgo. You have no rebuttal after all.

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I do not need to rebut something that you cannot establish.

disciple Clint said:

I do not need to rebut something that you cannot establish.

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I already did establish my points. Denial of a conclusion isn't a rebuttal of the arguments.

No theologian can establish something 100% infallibly. In the arena of theology, however, it is irrational to remain in a position demonstrated self-contradictory, or less plausible than the alternatives.

All you have to do is identify and demonstrate any flaws in my analysis. So far, you failed.

I find it is true that it is hard to imagine a world not of opposites and artistic expression not contrasted to pain or ugliness, but somehow Adam and Eve fit into the Garden before they became self aware and put self first and no longer fit, so it must work. Perhaps the cure for self interest is simply to take that knowledge of good and evil and learn how to live with it properly, not using it for self interest or gain at the expense of others. But does that conjure up images of the Red Cross and Mother Teresa, or that of communism? How many guardian angels shirk their duty by goofing off and following their own desires? Apparently 1/3 of them were not content doing only good. What I do know is this world we have made over in our own image is sorely in need of a better system than one we cook up where we redefine at will what is good and evil to suit our latest desires. We are not capable of completely fixing what broke with only a struggle of push and pull, especially when the desire to glorify self in so many ways is always there. The suffering and oppression far outweighs the good, yet if we eased the suffering and oppression there would be less desire on their part to gain at the expense of others. Can simply removing evil from the equation work if even God stated they know both good and evil also?

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

I was thinking about God and the question of why does God permit evil since no one would permit evil if they had the power to stop it. But I think that the answer isn't as simple as having the power to stop evil and then just stopping it. What if there is value in evil? What if we have to know evil because otherwise we would spend eternity in a happy paradise wondering about the other possibilities beyond the good we are experiencing. Maybe we just needed to know. It's like having an itch that must be scratched even at the risk of a scar. Maybe experiencing evil is worth knowing. What if we enter the next life grateful we know evil and no longer have to experience it again. Maybe that knowledge was necessary for us to be happy and whole. Wouldn't you want your children to know evil? And if so then maybe we shouldn't question God for allowing evil.

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This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

JAL said:

Actually I couldn't care less - I'm just tired of suffering and want it to end.

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James 1:2
My brothers and sisters, be very happy when you are tested in different ways.

1 Peter 1:6
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

James 1:2
My brothers and sisters, be very happy when you are tested in different ways.

1 Peter 1:6
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

hope this helps !!!

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Those verses comfort me only because I'm confident that a world of potential suffering was NECESSARY, that God saw a NEED for this kind of world. Whereas a God who allowed suffering just for the fun of it? That would leave me resentful and inconsolable.

JAL said:

Those verses comfort me only because I'm confident that a world of potential suffering was NECESSARY, that God saw a NEED for this kind of world. Whereas a God who allowed suffering just for the fun of it? That would leave me resentful and inconsolable.

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Did we not bring this onto ourselves and need to learn the consequences of our actions? Some do learn but most seems to use them to their own advantage, thus learning nothing.

timothyu said:

Did we not bring this onto ourselves and need to learn the consequences of our actions? Some do learn but most seems to use them to their own advantage, thus learning nothing.

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As I argued at post #54, an infinitely self-sufficient God has no justification for creating a world of radical freedom. In that case creation is an immoral act.

As an analogy, consider this. Currently not everyone has a strong inclination toward major crimes. But imagine a leader who, just for the fun of it, instills such an inclination within us all. We are still still partly to blame for any crimes assuming we have enough free will to resist. Yet the LEADER is primarily to blame because his immoral act was foundational for all subsequent immoralities.

That's why most atheists, even today, still consider the Problem of Evil to be a devastating objection to theism. Atheists aren't fooled by the superficial "solutions" provided by Christian theologians historically.

JAL said:

As I argued at post #54, an infinitely self-sufficient God has no justification for creating a world of radical freedom. In that case creation is an immoral act.

As an analogy, consider this. Currently not everyone has a strong inclination toward major crimes. But imagine a leader who, just for the fun of it, instills such an inclination within us all. We are still still partly to blame for any crimes assuming we have enough free will to resist. Yet the LEADER is primarily to blame because his immoral act was foundational for all subsequent immoralities.

That's why most atheists, even today, still consider the Problem of Evil to be a devastating objection to theism. Atheists aren't fooled by the superficial "solutions" provided by Christian theologians historically.

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that is because atheists like all unbelievers are spiritually blind to Gods truth.

Jesus is YHWH said:

that is because atheists like all unbelievers are spiritually blind to Gods truth.

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Nope. My analogy of an earthly leader left God out of the picture to illustrate a basic principle of morality easily grasped by both believers and unbelievers.

JAL said:

As I argued at post #54, an infinitely self-sufficient God has no justification for creating a world of radical freedom. In that case creation is an immoral act.

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You assume He made it although another being is considered the ruler. God did however make a Garden He at one point deemed no longer suitable for self aware humans who were deemed at that point a better fit for that ruler's world than to remain in the Garden universe.

timothyu said:

You assume He made it although another is the ruler. God did however make a Garden he at one point deemed no longer suitable for self aware humans who were a better fit for that ruler's world

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God didn't make Adam and Eve? God didn't make this "ruler" you speak of? (I'm not familiar with your views).

JAL said:

God didn't make Adam and Eve?

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God made Adam and Eve, but not for this world. He made them for His Garden, a place now off limits to mankind.

timothyu said:

God made Adam and Eve, but not for this world. He made them for His Garden, a place now off limits to mankind.

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Ok but it was His decision to include radical freedom in His formula for Adam and Eve.

Why? Just for the fun of it? As my recent analogy illustrated (post 72), an infinitely self-sufficient God has no basis for justifying such behavior.

JAL said:

God has no basis for justifying such behavior.

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He would if He was trying to rectify a hybrid world of another's making.

timothyu said:

He would if He was trying to rectify a hybrid world of another's making.

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Let me get this straight. An infinitely powerful God needed to enlist the assistance of Adam and Eve to rectify a situation?