At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

RickReads · Nov 21, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Do you know what the word Orthodox means?

Ignored for obvious reasons.

RickReads · Nov 21, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
The problem I see with this interpretation is the surrounding context and the implications of it. John 15:6 is not the only verse in that message that indicates the possibility of loss of salvation. First you have verse 2. He (The Father) cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. Then verse 4 where He tells His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him. Just Him telling them to abide in Him suggests the possibility of them being capable of not abiding in Him otherwise it would be pointless to say it. Then again in verse 4 He says “unless you abide in Me” reinforcing the idea that they are capable of failing to abide in Him. Then in verse 5 He tells them why they must abide in Him “for apart from Me you can do nothing”. This is another indication that they are capable of failing to abide in Him. Now this whole message has been directed at His apostles and because people hold to eternal security so tightly they refuse to admit that verse 6 is also directed towards them even though all the implications in the surrounding verses indicate that these men are capable of failing to abide in Him. Even verse 7 is a huge indication when He says “IF you abide in Me”. I mean verse after verse it’s one implication after another that these 11 faithful men were capable of failing to abide in Him and people just blind themselves and try so hard to interpret this passage of scripture to coincide with their doctrine of eternal security. This is the primary problem with many reformed Christians is they let their doctrines define the scriptures instead of letting the scriptures define their doctrines. I struggled with it as well when I went thru it. It was this passage of scripture that made me reevaluate my theology. I had originally set out to prove that John 15:1-10 did not contradict eternal security and I couldn’t in good conscience honestly come to the conclusion that it doesn’t refute eternal security without ignoring the evidence and implications in these verses. I prayed, studied the Greek definitions, searched commentaries and nothing changed the message in such a way to coincide with eternal security. In fact the Greek definitions only strengthened the message in opposition to eternal security. I had been arguing and debating against Catholic theology fiercely supporting reformed theology up until this point where I hit a brick wall that simply would not budge. I studied these 10 verses for 3 days and finally came to the conclusion that if I can’t reconcile these verses to coincide with reformed theology then I have to go back and reevaluate every verse in the Bible that I thought supported reformed theology to see if it can be translated to not support reformed theology and much to my surprise they actually can. I found that some verses like John 6:37 for example actually translate against eternal security. I spent 3 weeks reevaluating my theology. I don’t mean 3 weeks in my spare time I mean 3 solid weeks of studying church history, early church writings, Greek definitions, and just trying to put this all together. I had plenty of spare time because I had taken a leave of absence from my work to take care of my father in his last days before he went to be with the Lord. When it was finally completed and I had re-evaluated every verse I could think of that supported reformed theology I finally had to admit it to myself that I was wrong. Then I went to the people I had been debating against and admitted to them that I was wrong and recanted my posts. One thing I had to be sure of was that my pride was not more important than speaking the truth about God’s word. Now I’m not accusing anyone of this I’m just giving my testimony of what happened when I discovered the apostolic teachings. Afterwards I began looking for the apostolic Church of God and from my studies I believe it is the Eastern Orthodox Church. They are the only church I’ve found that hold to the teachings of the scriptures, early church writings, and their actions reflect Christ’s teachings.

Sounds like you entered a state of confusion and just stayed there. The unfruitful branch was never successfully grafted in.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 21, 2020

RickReads said:
Sounds like you entered a state of confusion and just stayed there. The unfruitful branch was never successfully grafted in.

True if he understood the basics of agriculture/farming it would be obvious to him.

RickReads · Nov 21, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
True if he understood the basics of agriculture/farming it would be obvious to him.

I grow tomatoes which are easy. I learned about grafting from reading Messianic theology, which is pretty good stuff if it`s from the right branch of that denomination.

bekkilyn · Nov 21, 2020

Dave L said:
God creates a new person in the new birth. You then love holiness and hate sin. And want nothing more than to repent. Any that don't experience this, is not born again

And yet God still offers ALL people a choice as to whether to accept or reject this transformation.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
And yet God still offers ALL people a choice as to whether to accept or reject this transformation.

To me " to be free", " freedom" is just a natural illusion, a deception. The U.S. Constitution declared freedom for all yet endorsed slavery by its very founders.

There is only one time man was actually free and that was before sin entered this world. Adam was actually free to choose between right and wrong, to obey God or not. From the moment he sinned mankind was no longer free.

Fast forward to Jesus day.

He said whom the Son sets free is free indeed !

This presumes man is not in any state free or have freedom.

Below is how the scriptures describe man is his natural state apart from Christ.

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

So man in his natural state is a slave of sin, dead in sin, sin is his master, his heart is wicked and cannot understand spiritual things because his heart is dark because of sin. Man loves sin and hates God.

A Slave is not free until his master sets him free. Until then he has no freedom.

Whom the Son sets free is Free indeed. Until the Son becomes your Master and Lord you cannot choose to do good because you are enslaved to sin. Jesus must give you a new heart, a new birth , His Spirit must dwell in you to overcome sin so that you will be able to choose to obey Him when you are tempted to sin. Only A BORN AGAIN believer has Freedom from sin.

hope this helps !!!

bekkilyn · Nov 21, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
To me " to be free", " freedom" is just a natural illusion, a deception. The U.S. Constitution declared freedom for all yet endorsed slavery by its very founders.

There is only one time man was actually free and that was before sin entered this world. Adam was actually free to choose between right and wrong, to obey God or not. From the moment he sinned mankind was no longer free.

Fast forward to Jesus day.

He said whom the Son sets free is free indeed !

This presumes man is not in any state free or have freedom.

Below is how the scriptures describe man is his natural state apart from Christ.

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

So man in his natural state is a slave of sin, dead in sin, sin is his master, his heart is wicked and cannot understand spiritual things because his heart is dark because of sin. Man loves sin and hates God.

A Slave is not free until his master sets him free. Until then he has no freedom.

Whom the Son sets free is Free indeed. Until the Son becomes your Master and Lord you cannot choose to do good because you are enslaved to sin. Jesus must give you a new heart, a new birth , His Spirit must dwell in you to overcome sin so that you will be able to choose to obey Him when you are tempted to sin. Only A BORN AGAIN believer has Freedom from sin.

hope this helps !!!

In which case the only valid alternative to choice would be universalism. God saves everyone.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
In which case the only valid alternative to choice would be universalism. God saves everyone.

false dichotomy.

all are under sin
all are condemned in sin
all have sinned
none are good no not one
the wages of sin is death.

So the real question is why would a Holy God, a Just God save anyone ?

Man views God from a human POV. God is not like us nor does God reason like fallen man. As the heavens are above the earth so are His ways and thoughts above mans.

Shall the clay say to the Potter why did you make me this way ?

Man likes to create a god after their own image/likeness and the way he thinks God should be like.

hope this helps !!!

bekkilyn · Nov 21, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
false dichotomy.

What is false is contorting carefully selected scripture verses in order to "prove" that God only loves some rather than being the very embodiment of love, that God did not "so love the world", that God's grace is limited, and that God specifically created most of creation for the sole and entire purpose of condemning it.

This is perversion of God's character and of the gospel.

There are two basic alternatives:

A God who provides through his grace to ALL people the capability to choose him. Those who are not saved will (by their own informed choice) not be saved. They specifically reject the grace God offers to them.

OR

People are simply incapable of making any choice at all and God, being loving and just and merciful to his creation, saves all.

Anything less is a perversion of God's character and of the message of the gospel.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
What is false is contorting carefully selected scripture verses in order to "prove" that God only loves some rather than being the very embodiment of love, that God did not "so love the world", that God's grace is limited, and that God specifically created most of creation for the sole and entire purpose of condemning it.

This is perversion of God's character and of the gospel.

There are two basic alternatives:

A God who provides through his grace to ALL people the capability to choose him. Those who are not saved will (by their own informed choice) not be saved. They specifically reject the grace God offers to them.

OR

People are simply incapable of making any choice at all and God, being loving and just and merciful to his creation, saves all.

Anything less is a perversion of God's character and of the message of the gospel.

And you are "free" to believe whatever you want as am I.

bekkilyn · Nov 21, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
And you are "free" to believe whatever you want as am I.

Of course, but Calvinism still ought to be tossed into the depths of the fiery pit right alongside the very devils who inspired it.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
Of course, but Calvinism still ought to be tossed into the depths of the fiery pit right alongside the very devils who inspired it.

and some would say the same of aminians

Dave L · Nov 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
And yet God still offers ALL people a choice as to whether to accept or reject this transformation.

This is not found anywhere in the bible. Why? The gospel is an announcement, not a job offer.

bekkilyn · Nov 21, 2020

Dave L said:
This is not found anywhere in the bible. Why? The gospel is an announcement, not a job offer.

An announcement of condemnation and bad news for most? God so loved the world, but not really?

The announcement is John 3:16-17. Good news for all the world, all of creation. So either we choose to participate, or God saves all. Anything less is a perversion of the gospel. (Which literally means, GOOD news.)

Dave L · Nov 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
An announcement of condemnation and bad news for most? God so loved the world, but not really?

The announcement is John 3:16-17. Good news for all the world, all of creation. So either we choose to participate, or God saves all. Anything less is a perversion of the gospel. (Which literally means, GOOD news.)

You are turning the gospel into a job offer when you base it on free will. Preach = announce in Greek that whoever believes has eternal life. Eternal life has no beginning or end. Only those born again can understand this.

bekkilyn · Nov 21, 2020

Dave L said:
You are turning the gospel into a job offer when you base it on free will. Preach = announce in Greek that whoever believes has eternal life. Eternal life has no beginning or end. Only those born again can understand this.

As I said, if there is no capacity to choose and it is simply an annoucement of GOOD news, then God saves and restores ALL of creation. Anything less is a perversion of the gospel.

Dave L · Nov 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
As I said, if there is no capacity to choose and it is simply an annoucement of GOOD news, then God saves and restores ALL of creation. Anything less is a perversion of the gospel.

Being dead in sin, you can choose only an idol you think is Jesus. The Born again hear the announcement and repent.

bekkilyn · Nov 21, 2020

Dave L said:
Being dead in sin, you can choose only an idol you think is Jesus. The Born again hear the announcement and repent.

If there is no choice to reject the GOOD news for ALL the world, then ALL are born again. God saves and restores all of creation. There is no more being dead in sin as Christ is already the victor over it.

Dave L · Nov 21, 2020

bekkilyn said:
If there is no choice to reject the GOOD news for ALL the world, then ALL are born again. God saves and restores all of creation. There is no more being dead in sin as Christ is already the victor over it.

Why all the references concerning hell for eternity?

Mark Quayle · Nov 21, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Just Him telling them to abide in Him suggests the possibility of them being capable of not abiding in Him otherwise it would be pointless to say it. Then again in verse 4 He says “unless you abide in Me” reinforcing the idea that they are capable of failing to abide in Him.

I didn't ignore the context. You have shown me nothing new there I haven't considered, other than your particular logic concerning the matter. The whole book is a context that the Reformed love, and this particular chapter is a favorite of the Reformed to describe our powerlessness without Christ, our need for Christ, our

Maybe I need to explain how I see things happen. God enables, even compels us, and so we do as we should. It is he who works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure (purpose). This leaves us as very active, driven, in our own lives, sanctification, etc. (If you read the old Reformed writers, you will find them talking relatively little about what we on this forum argue about, and more about our duty, joy and suffering in obedience and putting away the "old man", and the means of growing in Christ, and the delight in the person, power, love and wisdom of God). As some in my family like to say, we do so, because it IS so. The logic you put across, that assesses Biblical end results and constructs a middle ignoring the Biblical middle, only elevates as an the position of man unBiblically to God's level of existence as an assumption. How can you possibly claim that God being the cause of all things excuses man from blame?

God has a beautiful way of displaying his wisdom, control and power: by weakness. Even sin itself, which would threaten to undo the very fabric of fact, in that a creation can rebel against its own creator. Yet God holds it all secure. God has this strange habit of allowing us to willfully go to the edge of disaster, even going over the edge sometimes, before stopping us, and using what we did for our own growth. The Elect must persevere, and will do so because of the work of God in them, not because of their faithfulness, yet they must be faithful. Your descriptions of Calvninism, your logical extrapolations of its precepts, ignore whole parts of the formulae.

The difference between Calvinism and the rest can be demonstrated with a line from this old early "Christian Rock" song by Love Song, Welcome Back, concerning one who has fallen away and returned to obedience: "..and you have all that lost time to make up for." That describes the attitude of modern Christendom, who think their lives are theirs to control, so that when they mess up, they have to now catch up to God's universal will for their lives. It is the Calvinist that recognizes that without Him we can do nothing, and when we mess up (behave contrary to the revealed will of God), we find ourselves, upon waking up (repentance), exactly where God's hidden will was for us to be, and learn from the experience, if nothing else, that it is God who works all things for the good of those who love him.

At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

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my Lord and my God !

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my Lord and my God !

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my Lord and my God !

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my Lord and my God !

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my Lord and my God !

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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