Daniel 2:44 The Kingdom That Breaks All Other Kingdoms

Douggg

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I guess when a person is trying to make the Biblical text fit their beliefs, it would have to be that way. But that's not what happened according to Paul's written word and the known history of the end coming soon after (just as prophesied).

View attachment 289090

Agreed. The time of the end of the Mosaic Covenant.
Here is a map of the entire world. The abomination of desolation does not take place until the gospel has been preached to all nations of the world as a witness.

Anyone commenting on the abomination of desolation without starting with Matthew 24:14 is - clueless.

Swiftmaps-World-Classic-Premier.jpg
 
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BABerean2

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Here is a map of the entire world. The abomination of desolation does not take place until the gospel has been preached to all nations of the world as a witness.

Anyone commenting on the abomination of desolation without starting with Matthew 24:14 is - clueless.

Swiftmaps-World-Classic-Premier.jpg


Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


What is the mathematical probability of having the same common word elements, in the same sequence, in the two passages below if they are not related?
That probability is zero, since no other passage in the entire Bible contains these same common word elements, in the same sequence.

Do you understand probability?


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


The readers of Jesus day would have understood Matthew 24:15, because they celebrated Hanukkah every year during the winter.
I have trouble understanding why modern Christians cannot see it unless they do not want to see it.

.
 
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Douggg

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Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


What is the mathematical probability of having the same common word elements, in the same sequence, in the two passages below if they are not related?
That probability is zero, since no other passage in the entire Bible contains these same common word elements, in the same sequence.

Do you understand probability?


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


The readers of Jesus day would have understood Matthew 24:15, because they celebrated Hanukkah every year during the winter.
I have trouble understanding why modern Christians cannot see it unless they do not want to see it.

.
Since you do not begin with Matthew 24:14, you are clueless to what the abomination of desolation will be and that it is setup in the holy place at the time of the end. After the gospel of the kingdom has been preached in all the world unto all nations.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
 
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mkgal1

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4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12 does not say anything about the end of the Mt Sinai covenant. And it was not Moses who made a covenant with the children of Israel, but God. Which the children of Israel said - We do - to that covenant.
Quoting William Barclay:
Time was divided by the Jews into two great periods-- this present age, and the age to come. The present age is wholly bad and beyond all hope of human reformation. If can be mended only by the direct intervention of God. When God does intervene the golden age, the age to come, will arrive. But in between the two ages there will come the Day of the Lord, which will be a time of terrible and fearful upheaval, like the birth-pangs of a new age.
Moses was the human mediator of the covenant made on Mt Sinai. Part of that conditional covenant the Israelites agreed to was their destruction for not remaining true to God. They had transgressed the covenant and were unfaithful (Hosea 6;7; Jeremiah 34:18; Joshua 23:16; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 16:59).

But.....God spoke to the Israelites, through the prophets, promising that a Messiah would come to them to remove their sin. Gabriel even gave Daniel the timeline of their expected Messiah. The end of their present age meant the beginning of the Messianic age....the New Covenant age.

Daniel 12:1
At that time
Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered
 
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Douggg

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But.....God spoke to the Israelites, through the prophets, promising that a Messiah would come to them to remove their sin. Gabriel even gave Daniel the timeline of their expected Messiah. The end of their present age meant the beginning of the Messianic age....the New Covenant age.

Daniel 12:1
At that time
Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered
The Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah, and looking for another person. The Jews, Jerusalem, have never said "We do" to the new covenant in Jesus and the gospel of Salvation.

That person will be the Antichrist, who will be anointed the King of Israel/messiah who comes in his own name.

Three years into his failed reign as the Jewish messiah, he will betray the Jews by committing the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8, which Gabriel said was time of the end in the text.

The Jews will reject him from continuing as their King of Israel, when he commits the transgression of desolation act which reveal him to be the man of sin, and not the messiah afterall.

God has the person killed, then brought back to life, as the person becomes the beast in Revelation 13.

The false prophet has a image made of the person, and it will be placed on the wings of the temple, i.e. the temple mount grounds out in the open where everyone can see it.

That is the abomination of desolation. The signal for the Jews in Judea to flee to the mountains.




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mkgal1

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The Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah, and looking for another person. The Jews, Jerusalem, have never said "We do" to the new covenant in Jesus and the gospel of Salvation
We wouldn't be Christians today, if the faithful remnant of Jews had rejected Him. Mary, a Jew, wouldn't have agreed to have birthed Him (she had a choice in that):

Luke 1:26-38
God sent the angel Gabriel to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin pledged in marriage to a man named Joseph, who was of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel appeared to her and said, “Greetings,b you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.c”Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

34How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”35The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be bornd will be called the Son of God. 36Look, even Elizabeth your relative has conceived a son in her old age, and she who was called barren is in her sixth month. 37For no word from God will ever fail.e38I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it happen to me according to your word.” Then the angel left her.


Elizabeth and Zechariah didn't reject Jesus, their Messiah. Elizabeth said this when Gabriel informed her of her pregnancy of John the baptist.:

Luke 1:25
The Lord has done this for me. In these days He has shown me favor and taken away my disgrace among the people.”


Then there're all the disciples...Saul/Paul......the 3,000 Jewish believers at Pentecost.
 
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mkgal1

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The Jews rejected Jesus as the messiah, and looking for another person. The Jews, Jerusalem, have never said "We do" to the new covenant in Jesus and the gospel of Salvation.

That person will be the Antichrist, who will be anointed the King of Israel/messiah who comes in his own name.

Three years into his failed reign as the Jewish messiah, he will betray the Jews by committing the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8, which Gabriel said was time of the end in the text.

The Jews will reject him from continuing as their King of Israel, when he commits the transgression of desolation act which reveal him to be the man of sin, and not the messiah afterall.

God has the person killed, then brought back to life, as the person becomes the beast in Revelation 13.

The false prophet has a image made of the person, and it will be placed on the wings of the temple, i.e. the temple mount grounds out in the open where everyone can see it.

That is the abomination of desolation. The signal for the Jews in Judea to flee to the mountains.




View attachment 289113
This is more modern Judaism than Christianity. It's a rejection of the True gospel.
 
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Douggg

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We wouldn't be Christians today, if the faithful remnant of Jews had rejected Him. Mary, a Jew, wouldn't have agreed to have birthed Him (she had a choice in that):

Luke 1:26-38
God sent the angel Gabriel to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin pledged in marriage to a man named Joseph, who was of the house of David. And the virgin’s name was Mary. The angel appeared to her and said, “Greetings,b you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.c”Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

34How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”35The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the Holy One to be bornd will be called the Son of God. 36Look, even Elizabeth your relative has conceived a son in her old age, and she who was called barren is in her sixth month. 37For no word from God will ever fail.e38I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it happen to me according to your word.” Then the angel left her.


Elizabeth and Zechariah didn't reject Jesus, their Messiah. Elizabeth said this when Gabriel informed her of her pregnancy of John the baptist.:

Luke 1:25
The Lord has done this for me. In these days He has shown me favor and taken away my disgrace among the people.”


Then there're all the disciples...Saul/Paul......the 3,000 Jewish believers at Pentecost.
You are taking the small percentage of Jews and are trying to make them the majority.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
 
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Douggg

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This is more modern Judaism than Christianity. It's a rejection of the True gospel.
Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to the Jews in the end times who will end up going through the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians of the end times, on how to avoid going through the great tribulation, via the rapture.
 
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BABerean2

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Since you do not begin with Matthew 24:14, you are clueless to what the abomination of desolation will be and that it is setup in the holy place at the time of the end. After the gospel of the kingdom has been preached in all the world unto all nations.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


You did not answer the question.
Do you understand probability?


.
 
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Douggg

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You did not answer the question.
Do you understand probability?


.
It's an irrelevant question.

When you read that the little horn and transgression desolation is said to be time of the end in the text - you don't keep going with some eschatology and doctrine of a movement that says otherwise.

And when the text indicates the abomination of desolation is after the gospel of the kingdom is preached to the world unto all the nations - you don't keep going with commentators of a movement that say otherwise.
 
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jgr

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The Jews (Judaism) believe that there will be no Antichrist person, no little horn person, no transgression of desolation at the time of the end, no end times 7 year 70th week - just like you do.

The Jews(Judaism) have neither the Son nor the Father. (1 John 2:23)

The Truth of the Son and the Father is not in them.

So why would I care what they believe?

Why would you?
 
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Douggg

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The Jews(Judaism) have neither the Son nor the Father. (1 John 2:23)

The Truth of the Son and the Father is not in them.

So why would I care what they believe?

Why would you?
Because what the Jews believe is part of the end times picture of Great Opposer to Jesus as that person progresses to his demise in Revelation 19.
 
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mkgal1

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You are taking the small percentage of Jews and are trying to make them the majority.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
I'm not attempting to make them the majority.....but no where does God call all of the ancient biblical Israelites "His people" or "His sons"....that's only the faithful remnant. Instead.....there is a division of kindness and severity based on allegiance and abiding in God:

Romans 11:22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Romans 9:6
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
 
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mkgal1

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Because what the Jews believe is part of the end times picture of Great Opposer to Jesus as that person progresses to his demise in Revelation 19.
Not in traditional Christianity. Maybe in modern Judaism or in modern Zionism.....but not orthodox historical Christianity.
 
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Douggg

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Douggg

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Not in traditional Christianity. Maybe in modern Judaism or in modern Zionism.....but not orthodox historical Christianity.
I am talking about eschatology. I don't know what you are talking about.
 
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Zao is life

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It's a very common interpretation that the Roman Empire was the fourth kingdom.....but I'm thinking it was actually Zealot-led Israel that was that fourth kingdom. Adam Maarschalk has written a compelling argument in favor of that, here:

"Daniel 2: Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece/Macedonia – Pursuing Truth" Daniel 2: Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece/Macedonia
I don't mind what people believe when it comes to eschatology, nor do I believe what I believe is necessarily true in every respect. A lot of what you said in your OP does make sense, .. but .. in my mind there are a few sentences staring with "but" in my statement. It also appears to me that Adam Maarshalk has come to a few of his conclusions by conjecture.

BUT I don't want to torpedo your thread, and since I'm not a Preterist, I hope you'll understand that if I bring up my "buts", it's not to torpedo your thread or your views.

So having said that, here goes:

I'm happy with Adam Maarshcalk's view that Revelation 13 & 17's beast is the same as the ten toes in Daniel 2, and the ten kings in Daniel 7 - but notice firstly that Revelation's beast:-

1. Made war with the saints and overcame them (I don't think the word "saints" refers to anyone except believers in Jesus when mentioned in the New Testament?); Rome was also making war against the saints (Christians) in those days.
2. The beast had existed at one time, but did not exist at the time John received the Revelation, and would rise out of the abyss and go to perdition.
3. Those ten kings would make war against the Lamb, and He would overcome them. In the Revelation, that beast and its false prophet would be thrown into the lake of fire.
4. That beast will destroy the harlot city called "Babylon the Great".

Big question about that - because both Paul and the Revelation only make a comparison between two cities: Paul says Jerusalem on earth is in bondage with her children, but the Jerusalem above is free. Revelation makes a thesis-antithesis comparison of two cities: Babylon the Great (the harlot), and the New Jerusalem. The Revelation calls New Jerusalem "the holy city", but Jerusalem on earth it calls "Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified". It was Rome that destroyed Jerusalem.

5. In the Revelation, the beast ""was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion." (Rev 13:2). These are the same symbols used for those kingdoms of Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece/Macedonia in Daniel 7.

6. In Daniel 2 the beast is said to have some of the strength of the fourth kingdom, but Daniel says that the iron mixed with clay represents the fact that "they" would mix with the seed of men in this kingdom, and the kingdom would be partly strong and partly brittle - implying that though it still had the strength of the iron, it was weakened through what in our modern English we would call a "multicultural society". There would be no unity in this final kingdom with ten toes/ten kings. Jesus said that nation (ethnos) would rise up against nation (ethnos), and kingdom against kingdom.

If this beast was the Judean Jews of the 1st and 2nd century who warred against Rome, who were the ten kings? Would these Judeans (Jews) who were defeated by Rome be unified, contain the strength of Rome in it, yet be weakened (the clay) through the mixing with the seed of men?

I find a lot of "buts" when I start thinking about it.
 
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mkgal1

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This is not ALL in the sense of ALL the descendants of the ancient Israelites ("not all Israel is of Israel". Not all are called "sons and daughters".

This prophecy of Ezekiel was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.....in Jerusalem....in 30 AD.

Acts 2
14.Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!d 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:17‘In the last days, God says,

I will pour out My Spirit on all people....
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.18Even on My menservants and maidservant (s)

I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.19I will show wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.20The sun will be turned to darkness,

and the moon to blood,

before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord
will be saved.’e

22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know. 23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.

Quoting Ray Vander Laan:
There are many compelling similarities between the expressions of God's presence on Mount Sinai and his presence among the disciples during Pentecost.​


- On Mount Sinai, God's presence was accompanied by fire, smoke, and the sound of thunder (Ex. 19:16-19). God's presence during Pentecost was accompanied by the sound of wind, tongues of fire, and the gift of different languages (Acts 2:1-3).
- When God gave the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai, the people were worshiping the golden calf. About 3,000 people died as punishment for their sins. When Jesus' Spirit was given during Pentecost, the people repented, and about 3,000 people believed and found spiritual life.
- God's presence was symbolized by a cloud and fire, which led the Israelites out of Egypt. Later, God moved his presence into the temple (2 Chron. 5:7-8, 13-14). During Pentecost, God's presence moved from the temple into a "new temple," the followers of Jesus (Rom. 8:9).
- Finally, The Torah provided God's teachings for the Old Testament community of people. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit became the Teacher of believers (John 14:26).
 
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