Titus 2:11 demonstrates free will for "everyone".

nolidad · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
You once again highlight the problem with Calvinism. You interpret verses in isolation while missing the context.

1 Cor 2:9 However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” the things God has prepared for those who love him—10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

The context of what Paul is talking about is established in verses 9 and 10. This is talking about people who already believe and talks about "the things God has prepared for those who love Him". Then he goes on to call these things "the deep things of God". This has nothing to do with one's ability to initially believe the gospel and put their faith in Christ. That is clearly not the context of this passage.

Paul expands on what he is talking about in that passage immediately afterwards in 1 Corinthians 3. Remember, there were no chapter breaks in the original Greek, so he is continuing his thoughts on this particular topic into 1 Cor 3.

1 Cor 3:1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? 5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Notice that Paul is scolding these immature believers who he called "infants in Christ" for still behaving in a worldly fashion. They were Christians but were immature Christians. They were not yet ready to understand the "solid food" of God's word instead of only the milk. They were not yet ready to understand the deep things of God that he had previously talked about. But, it wasn't as though they couldn't understand it. They had the Holy Spirit so they had to learn how to discern what the Holy Spirit was teaching them.

But unbelievers without the Holy Spirit cannot possibly understand the "solid food" of God's word and the deep things of God. That's all Paul was saying. He was not saying that unbelievers have no ability to comprehend the message of the gospel and to respond to it without having the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

The reality is you have overlooked the context. Those deep things you speak of? They are searched out by the spirit. I would contend that it is not the Holy Spirit but the human spirit that searches them out for the Holy Spirit need not search out anything of god for He is God!

Even in your version of Scripture you are using here, you show that it is the unsaved that cannot perceive the things of god because they have not the Spirit. a carnal Christian has the Spirit even if they are disobedient. Unbelievers cannot understand even the milk of the Word. If the milk of the Word are things that come from the Spirit of God so the natural man cannot understand them! John 3 clearly shows that the understanding of gospel is from the Spirit of God

nolidad · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
There is no paradox! That is the Calvinist cop out excuse for believing what you do.

Horse manure!

FreeGrace2 said:
It is obvious. They decide to.

Yes we accept. but we cannot accept while we are in our sinful human nature that is even more obvious!

FreeGrace2 said:
Yet, no Calvinist I have ever dealt with has ever provided ANY verses that support this idea. The Bible says man "believes from the heart". Why doesn't it say "believes from God's power" if Calvinism were right?

Why doesn't it say from their own free will?
This is a statement of fact, not a verse on the how they get to believe, so your argument is a fallacy.

but if you want a verse on the impossibility of an unsaved person freely deciding to choose Jesus:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

See no one can come to Christ unless they are dragged there by the father!
draw- helkel

to draw, drag off
metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Same word used to describe what the apostles did when they fished when Jesus told them to and their nets were to the point of breaking.

God compels people to come and then Jesus said all who come, He will not cast out!

Thus endeth the lesson.

nolidad · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Well, not completely. Think about the Ninevites, for example. But, most of them were.

Poor analogy. There is nothing that says the Ninevites got "saved"! God did turn His physical punishment from the city, but only for a time. But there is nothing that says people in Nineveh got saved. Maybe some did but the SCriptures are silent so we should be!

But that is the exception and not the rule.

FreeGrace2 said:
Calvinists need to stop treating free will as a "thing". It isn't. It's an opportunity of choice. That's all it is.

If you don't accept this, there can be no meaningful discussion at all.

Well show me a person dead in their trespaases in sins, receives not the things of God and cannot please god and does not seek god can of their own "free will" choose God with those facts declared by SCripture. Please don't show me verses on what they have to choose or why they have to choose, but that they are even able to choose apart from God doing a work in their heart ahead of time.

Remember the words of jesus:

"NO MAN (let me repeat NO MAN) can come to me unless the Father drags them!" And those the Father drags to me, I will not cast out!

FreeGrace2 said:
Another opinion. Where is any Scripture that says this?

As soon as you show me the Scriptures that says an unsaved person who is dead spiritually, cannot perceive the things of God nor can do things that please God can of that ethereal "free will" choose god!

nolidad · Nov 19, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I don't see any appreciable difference here. I do believe that God's salvation has appeared to all men, meaning it has been offered to everyone.

No for not everyone has heard the gospel. Since Pentecost, there has been many billions of people who have never heard the gospel and thus had a chance to be saved! So no the gospel has not been offered to everyone.

What Paul is saying in this verse is that the grace that leads to salvation has been made manifest to all. Meaning that it is only through Jesus that salvation is obtainable.

nolidad · Nov 19, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
No, the meaning of "all" here is everyone, as most of the translations say.

Salvation is available for everyone, as Christ died for everyone.

Well the "all" in English is at times different than the "all" in Greek. IN Greek (as is the case here) means all manner of.

When Paul wrote this- teh gospel had not even gotten through the Roman Empire yet! China, India, huge swaths of Europe and Africa the gospel had not yet been made available. The grace that makes sa;lvation possibly was manifested to all sorts of people, but no, not everyone had heard teh gospel or heard of jesus.

nolidad · Nov 19, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
It is obvious. They decide to.

Yes, this is God's plan for believers.

Yet, no Calvinist I have ever dealt with has ever provided ANY verses that support this idea. The Bible says man "believes from the heart". Why doesn't it say "believes from God's power" if Calvinism were right?

Nonsense.

Regeneration follows faith.

That is proven in Eph 2:5 and 8.

Well show how an unsaved person in and of themselves by their own free will can say Yes to Jesus when they are spiritually dead.

I know faith comes before regeneration. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word!
Slavation is by faith through grace and a gift. Faith has to come first so we can place out rust in christ!

nolidad · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Where does scripture teach this? If they haven't heard the gospel then God will judge them according to what Paul said here:

Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

This passage makes it abundantly clear that everyone will be judged based on what they know and no one will have any excuse for not humbling themselves and repenting of their sins.

So you believe there are two means by which a person can be saved?

1. For those who have a chance to hear teh gospel- They have to place their trust in teh death and resurrection of Jesus in order to be saved.
2. For those who never heard the gospel, by following the law in their hearts?

So Paul was wrong here?

Romans 10:9-17
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Peter messed up as well:

Acts 4:

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Remember Romans 3 is still in the context of Romans 2:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

People are condemned without the law and people are condemned with the law! So people who don't hear the gospel cannot be saved by their "conscience" or whatever you may wish to call it!

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

nolidad said:
The reality is you have overlooked the context. Those deep things you speak of? They are searched out by the spirit. I would contend that it is not the Holy Spirit but the human spirit that searches them out for the Holy Spirit need not search out anything of god for He is God!

Even in your version of Scripture you are using here, you show that it is the unsaved that cannot perceive the things of god because they have not the Spirit. a carnal Christian has the Spirit even if they are disobedient. Unbelievers cannot understand even the milk of the Word. If the milk of the Word are things that come from the Spirit of God so the natural man cannot understand them! John 3 clearly shows that the understanding of gospel is from the Spirit of God

Where does scripture teach that unbelievers cannot understand even the milk of the Word? I know unbelievers who definitely understand it and, yet, they still don't believe.

Paul indicated in Romans 1:18-32 that all people have the knowledge of God and have no excuse for glorifying Him as God and being thankful to Him. How does your doctrine explain that?

You made that claim while giving no evidence to back it up. Please learn to back up your claims with scripture. Your opinions mean nothing to me unless you provide supporting scripture.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

nolidad said:
Horse manure!

That response stinks.

but if you want a verse on the impossibility of an unsaved person freely deciding to choose Jesus:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

See no one can come to Christ unless they are dragged there by the father!
draw- helkel

to draw, drag off

metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Same word used to describe what the apostles did when they fished when Jesus told them to and their nets were to the point of breaking.

God compels people to come and then Jesus said all who come, He will not cast out!

Thus endeth the lesson.

How about a lesson in not drawing conclusions from one verse without taking other verses into account? Is that a lesson you've ever learned before?

John 12:30 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

The word "draw" in verse 32 is translated from the same Greek word used in John 6:44. But, do Calvinists like yourself interpret the word the same way in John 12:32 as they do in John 6:44? No. Why not? No good reason other than to try to keep their doctrine afloat.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

nolidad said:
Poor analogy. There is nothing that says the Ninevites got "saved"! God did turn His physical punishment from the city, but only for a time. But there is nothing that says people in Nineveh got saved. Maybe some did but the SCriptures are silent so we should be!

They repented of their sins, did they not? Yes, they did. Scripture teaches that people must repent in order to be saved. There's no reason to think that they were not because it indicates that their repentance was sincere. Also, there is this:

Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here.

Seems clear to me that the people of Nineveh will be found innocent on judgment day, unlike the Pharisees and teachers of the law that Jesus was speaking to there.

Well show me a person dead in their trespaases in sins, receives not the things of God and cannot please god and does not seek god can of their own "free will" choose God with those facts declared by SCripture. Please don't show me verses on what they have to choose or why they have to choose, but that they are even able to choose apart from God doing a work in their heart ahead of time.

Jesus called sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32). All sinners. Not just certain ones. Would He have called them all to repentance if some could not respond? Of course not. God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9). Your doctrine cannot be reconciled with that fact.

Remember the words of jesus:

"NO MAN (let me repeat NO MAN) can come to me unless the Father drags them!" And those the Father drags to me, I will not cast out!

Remember these words of Jesus, also.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

The word "draw' here is the same word you translate as "drags". Jesus indeed draws all people to Himself but then all people must decide what to do at that point. If you read Matthew 22:1-14 you should see that some reject Him, not because He didn't call them, but rather because they were not willing. It was their choice, not His.

People can resist God's call to repentance and faith.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Why did Stephen get upset at the Jewish religious leaders he was preaching to for rejecting Christ if they couldn't help but to reject Him? Your doctrine has no answer for that.

As soon as you show me the Scriptures that says an unsaved person who is dead spiritually, cannot perceive the things of God nor can do things that please God can of that ethereal "free will" choose god!

Read all of scripture because that is taught throughout scripture.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

nolidad said:
So you believe there are two means by which a person can be saved?

1. For those who have a chance to hear teh gospel- They have to place their trust in teh death and resurrection of Jesus in order to be saved.
2. For those who never heard the gospel, by following the law in their hearts?

Why would this not be the case? Do you think a God of love (1 John 4:8) would condemn people to hell for not believing in Jesus if they've never even heard of Him? Scripture never teaches that. Do you believe that no one in OT times was saved? Of course you don't. So, however God judged those people is how He will judge people who haven't heard of Jesus in the NT era as well.

So Paul was wrong here?

Romans 10:9-17
King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Where does this say that those who haven't heard about Jesus are condemned? How can someone be guilty of disobeying the gospel if they haven't heard it? How can someone reject Christ if they haven't heard of Him?

I'm very glad that you are not God because you are cruel. God is not. He is impartial and He is love and He is just. He will judge everyone based on what they know. Is that now what Romans 2 indicates? You quote Romans 9 and just ignore Romans 2? Why?

Peter messed up as well:

Acts 4:

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Remember Romans 3 is still in the context of Romans 2:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

People are condemned without the law and people are condemned with the law! So people who don't hear the gospel cannot be saved by their "conscience" or whatever you may wish to call it!

Again, I'm glad that you are not God because you would be a cruel, unloving dictator who is willing to condemn people for not doing something (believing in Jesus) that they couldn't possibly do due to not even having heard of Him. Why would you believe in a God who would be unfair and cruel like that? I don't believe in your version of God.

No one can reject Christ if they haven't heard of Him. Condemnation comes from a willing rejection of Christ for those who know of Him. Those who haven't heard can't be judged with those criteria. Even those who haven't heard of Christ who are deemed to be worthy of eternal life because of their faith in God based on what they do know, will have the blood of Christ applied to their sins because there's no other way for someone's sins to be forgiven.

RickReads · Nov 19, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Sorry you think that noting that "faith" is a noun and what that means, distinguished from a verb, is wordplay.

I guess that helps avoid difficult discussions.

Nothing difficult about it. I was talking Bible and you were talking Calvinism and I didn`t care for the tone. Faith can be both a noun and a verb so moot point and certainly not something I need to have explained to me (yawns)

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

faith

verb
\ ˈfāth \
faithed; faithing; faiths
Definition of faith (Entry 2 of 2)

transitive verb

archaic
: BELIEVE, TRUST

FreeGrace2 · Nov 19, 2020

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I don't see any appreciable difference here. I do believe that God's salvation has appeared to all men, meaning it has been offered to everyone.

nolidad said:
No for not everyone has heard the gospel. Since Pentecost, there has been many billions of people who have never heard the gospel and thus had a chance to be saved! So no the gospel has not been offered to everyone.

Allow me to correct your error. Rom 1:19-21 shows that because God HAS revealed Himself and His divine power through creation, everyone has access to see it. And those who aren't thankful and recognize His existence have no excuse.

Such people have rejected further information. Unlike Cornelius in Acts 10, who DID recognize God's existence and prayed to Him and gave alms. He was searching. And God answered him by sending Peter to give him the gospel.

So, all those who never "heard the gospel" were people who never gave cognizance to the Creator, or were thankful to Him.

What Paul is saying in this verse is that the grace that leads to salvation has been made manifest to all.

How is that different than the OP?

Meaning that it is only through Jesus that salvation is obtainable.

Of course.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 19, 2020

nolidad said:
Well the "all" in English is at times different than the "all" in Greek. IN Greek (as is the case here) means all manner of.

Prove it then.

In fact, the Greek word and the English word are the same; 'pas' or 'all'.

It is context that limits or de-limits the scope of who is being referred to.

To say "all" in reference to those in a classrom, the meaning is clearly limited to just that classroom. There are no limiting words in the "all" verses that refer to Christ's death for all. Many translators render the word "everyone". Pretty clear.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 19, 2020

nolidad said:
Well show how an unsaved person in and of themselves by their own free will can say Yes to Jesus when they are spiritually dead.

Why do you think that spiritually dead people can't say yes? That is just another Calvinist assumption or presumption.

John 5:25 - Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

This verse very plainly SAYS that "the dead" WILL HEAR the voice of the Son of God and WILL LIVE.

Couldn't be more clear.

I know faith comes before regeneration. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word!

I'm glad to know you understand this truth!!

Slavation is by faith through grace and a gift. Faith has to come first so we can place out rust in christ!

Amen!

RickReads · Nov 19, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Why do you think that spiritually dead people can't say yes? That is just another Calvinist assumption or presumption.

John 5:25 - Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

This verse very plainly SAYS that "the dead" WILL HEAR the voice of the Son of God and WILL LIVE.

Couldn't be more clear.

First time I`ve seen somebody unable to tell the difference between Spiritual dead and Physical dead :doh:

Oh that`s right, faith can`t be a verb :liturgy:

FreeGrace2 · Nov 19, 2020

RickReads said:
First time I`ve seen somebody unable to tell the difference between Spiritual dead and Physical dead

Excuse me, but it's YOU who think the spiritually dead can't hear. Like the physically dead.

So it's you who can't tell the difference between the 2 deaths.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 19, 2020

RickReads said:
First time I`ve seen somebody unable to tell the difference between Spiritual dead and Physical dead

Oh that`s right, faith can`t be a verb

Are you saying you don't recognize that John 5:25 is speaking of being spiritually dead in sins and then becoming spiritually alive? It's not speaking of bodily death and resurrection there. Notice it says "the time is coming and has now come", so it was speaking of an ongoing reality rather than a future one. Jesus didn't speak of the bodily resurrection of the dead until after that in John 5:28. What He was speaking about in John 5:25 is the same thing Paul talked about here:

Ephesians 2:1 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

RickReads · Nov 19, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Are you saying you don't recognize that John 5:25 is speaking of being spiritually dead in sins and then becoming spiritually alive? It's not speaking of bodily death and resurrection there. Notice it says "the time is coming and has now come", so it was speaking of an ongoing reality rather than a future one. Jesus didn't speak of the bodily resurrection of the dead until after that in John 5:28. What He was speaking about in John 5:25 is the same thing Paul talked about here:

Ephesians 2:1 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

I got 5:25 & 5:28 mixed up, didn`t read it before I posted. Have at me.
I guess freegrace2 and I are even now for his faith can`t be a verb remark

RickReads · Nov 19, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appears and offers salvation to everyone.

OK, Calvinists, please explain how this verse doesn't demonstrate free will.

Taking a look at this I see you switched the order in the verse and altered its meaning by doing so.

Intellectual dishonesty using a bad translation.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

It says salvation has appeared, doesn`t say it`s offered to all men. Big difference in meaning and the verse doesn`t address choices.

"The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men - Επεφανη γαρ ἡ χαρις του Θεου ἡ σωτηριος πασιν ανθρωποις· Literally translated, the words stand thus: For the grace of God, that which saves, hath shone forth upon all men. Or, as it is expressed in the margin of our authorized version: The grace of God, that bringeth salvation to all men, hath appeared."

Titus 2:11 demonstrates free will for "everyone".

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