Christmas hell?

Pavel Mosko said:

Very weak.

1) Notice the entire presentation was based on a vision with no exposition of scripture.

2)Charismatic gifts like prophesies are suppose to be "judged" by the Church and not automatically accepted at face value (1 CORINTHIANS 14:29).
We have no evidence or reason to take this dream or vision seriously since we don't know the prophet or his character and their is no serious scriptural case made to support why we should take the vision or dream seriously. I personally have seen many dubious and blatantly prophecies with my background in the charismatic movement. People often prophesy based on their own opinions prejudices and other emotional reactions and not from the Holy Spirit.

I actually wrote about this general subject before and why posts like the OP are nonsense. Here is what I wrote 3+ years ago.


Introduction (an old post - reposted to answer some other posts on the board)
In the last decade, Christmas, has come under attack. Most westerners are used to have such attacks coming from atheists, Muslims, and liberals, but what is truly, interesting is when CHRISTIANS object to Christmas displays. One of the anti-Christmas movements gaining some traction is the notion among certain Christian fundamentalists is that Christmas is a pagan corruption, and the Christmas tree itself is a form of pagan idolatry.


There are some grains of truth to this claim, but in this series, I will be putting forth some reasons why I believe the Crusade Against Christmas and Christmas trees is itself is a dangerous movement that has a few heretical implications for Christianity. Furthermore, in spite of whatever the origins of decorative trees, Christmas has been a way that Christians have celebrated some of the important truths of their faith for at least 1700 years (roughly speaking).
My Presentation of the case against the Christmas tree comes from a former Facebook Associate. He is a nondenominational Charismatic who claims to be a prophet. I will refer to him with the pseudo name, “Brother X”.


Brother X's Case against the Christmas tree in a Nutshell

1) Brother X, correctly notes the Early Church “used the Old Testament as its Bible” (Because the NT was still being written in the 1st century, and took a couple of centuries for copies to be made by hand to become widely available).

2) He then References Old Testament verses regarding Idolatry. Not only were the Jews of the OT not practice idolatry but they were supposed to avoid having any knowledge of it. They were to remove all traces of it from their land, avoid saying the names of pagan gods etc.

3) The Christmas tree is a practice that descends from paganism. (Not the exact custom, but pagans from various regions from Egypt, Rome, and Germany did decorate their homes during the winter months with greenery, like tree branches, vines, mistletoe etc. )
http://www.whychristmas.com/customs/trees.shtml

4) Brother X then references Jeremiah 10:3-4. Brother X “Doesn’t this sound like a Christmas tree?”
Jeremiah 10:3-4
“For the customs of the peoples are delusion; Because it is wood cut from the forest, The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool. 4"They decorate it with silver and with gold; They fasten it with nails and with hammers So that it will not totter.”

5) Brother X notes Old Testament passages regarding contamination (i.e. leprosy, mold, other disease) says this is a prevalent theme in the Pentateuch because “of the spiritual implications from contamination”. People can be corrupted by coming into contact with things that are impure, corrupt and evil.
6) Therefore, according to Brother X, all Christians should stay away from all customs and practices that descend from paganism, even Christmas trees... 

PS – or point 7) Brother X, believes the reluctance of other Christians to see things the way he does is a result of “Their conscience being seared” (1 Timothy 4:2) and is further proof of their idolatry!




My Rebuttal point 1) Brother X view is contradicted by Jesus and the NT.
Mark 7:17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
Our corruption is not a result of being exposed to things the Mosaic Law forbids but the sins we actually practice. I guarantee that 99.999% of people buy and decorate a Christmas tree not to worship it, or to celebrate pagan gods but because they think it is pretty and want to make their home a bit more festive and bright for the holidays.


Point 2) Bishop Elect Stan Smith reaction
My BFF is too busy to be blogging these days, but figured I would give his reaction which is very apt and on target. He cites: Colossians 2:21-23New International Version (NIV)
21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
“This is a way of being special without having to actually do anything, Like help someone.”
(This is actually jumping the gun a bit, but he actually is on to something here. One of my later points, I was going to make Brother X seem to be on the road to becoming a cult leader. He never seems to be able to be at a church for any length of time. He seems driven to nitpick and fault find with everyone around him. He has his own little group that he is happy with, but he pretty much sets the rules and expels anybody that contradicts him).


Point 3) Inconsistencies and Myths about Culture
1) People who make these overly strict rules are usually not entirely consistent in their application of such principles (and thank God for that). What I’m saying is we have some aspects of the pagan heritage that are embed deep in our society that are hard to escape from. A few examples: The Months of the Year come from Roman pagan society, while the names of the days of the week come directly from Norse pagan society. Do such people protest these bits of paganism by refusing to use such terminology? Another example is our money, it is no secret that many of the Founding Fathers were Masons and used the symbols taken from Egyptian paganism. Do such people refuse to use US dollar bills because “The All-Seeing Eye of Ra” is printed on one side? I suspect the answer in most cases would be “No”, since that would extremely inconvenient.


2) A) Besides this there are some myths about culture. Many Charismatics have almost a Gnostic conception of a pure “Spiritual” belief or practice that is free of culture. The first time I recognized this was reading a Ken Hagin book, “Plans, Purposes, and Pursuits” when he spoke about “worship in the Spirit”. He chastised people who did “Square Dancing” during the Church service (dancing in the Spirit), and said “that was fleshly”. He however approved of the “Pentecostal hop”, which I guess seems more visceral and therefore more spiritual. This sort of reasoning is nonsense. Almost everything we do is culture related. The Pentecostal hop is just a product of a special sub culture. It is not something that is purely spiritual. Maybe the first people who did it, reacted that way, but once others see others do it. You get into “monkey see, monkey do”. And yes, even if you are against “the teaching of men”, you do end up develop your own unique cultural tradition.


B) One thing should also be said of Hebrew Culture before ending the post. Because Hebrew culture is the culture of the Bible, and the Jews are “God’s Chosen people” many people see Hebrew culture as something that is pure and Holy, spiritual etc. To those kinds of notions, I have to remind people that every culture beyond The Garden of Eden comes from somewhere else! Before Abraham left UR of the Chaldees he resided in a pagan land and had the culture of that land. You can see that in the Old Testament itself. Why do you think God is always appearing in the Pentateuch as a form of fire? That was a vestige of the Sumerian culture and religion that was part of the early Hebrew way of seeing the divine. Similarly, during the Captivity in Egypt the Hebrew culture adopted a number of things from the Egyptians: like the practice of stoning, they adopted their forms of poetry and wisdom literature (psalms, proverbs etc. is based on similar things the Egyptians did). Anyway, if paganism infects true religion and culture the Hebrews were infected 4 or 5 thousand years before the Christmas tree.


Point 4) Some Positive Preaching From aspects of the pagan heritage
Philippians 1:15-18New International Version (NIV)
15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
It's interesting that saint Paul only cares about one thing, that Christ is preached! He doesn’t sweat the details or motivations. So based on that I will make a few points.

A) The Christmas tree has been a means of celebrating one of “the essential truths” of Christianity the Incarnation of Christ. The Christmas tree does not corrupt true religion but utilizes and engages contemporary culture for the message of the Gospel much like Paul preaching at Mars Hill in the book of Acts.

B) On the subject, of the pagan heritage It should be noted that the pagan heritage has given us a few good things. Without evangelism of the Germanic tribes their might not be any military chaplains. One of the conditions for evangelizing the Germanic tribes was they demanded clergy that would go into battle with them (to replace their priests of Odin and Thor that went with them into battle to have the favor of the gods). And from these we got the warrior priests of the crusades, that is the early ancestor of the modern military chaplain. Can anyone truly say that this is not a benefit? (Given how vulnerable young people are during peace time, let alone when fighting an actual war.)


Not to beat a dead horse
There are many other points that could be made and scriptures that could be quoted.
Overall I see the Crusade against the Christmas tree as a divisive issue that goes against the basic spirit of the original "Counsel of Jerusalem" in Acts 15, and flies in the face of much of the ministry of saint Paul.

PS - One of the points I meant to better describe in the post is the Crusade against Christmas and "Paganism" in general mirrors the problems with the NT Judaizers. Both groups believed there was something intrinsically wrong with things associated with the outsiders (beyond questions of the Occult that is) Namely, were talking about how things like non-koshur meats, literally materially evil in themselves). This also end up being the reason behind some of the Rabbinic fences around associating with gentiles etc. which was why the Judaizers were afraid to associate with gentile believers. (Their non-koshurness would rub off on them). Obviously xenophobic attitudes like this are problematic when it comes to evangelizing the whole world.

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Lazarus Short said:

Ask yourself: Dante's version of Hell, Milton's version of Hell, Mary K. Baxter's version of Hell, the above video's version of Hell and every version of Hell you've ever seen or read - do they agree with each other?

If not, dismiss them all.

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Union With Christ said:

Fiction

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public hermit said:

My thoughts? You should give a summary. Also, why is this in this particular forum? If you have an agenda, put it in the appropriate forum. Why try to impress the impressionable with someone else's supposed visions?

New Christians need encouragement, not rabid fear. I'm sure you mean well, but maybe this would fit better in the conspiracy forum? Just a thought.

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Union With Christ said:

Sure, Jesus didn’t tell you to brush your teeth and you do that.

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public hermit said:

*yawn*

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