Stigma of witchcraft

bekkilyn · Nov 19, 2020

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Spoken like a true United Methodist, utterly indifferent to hostile forces that set themselves against Christianity.

I find this sort of interpretation of Jesus to be trite. Who was Jesus? He was the incarnate second person of the Trinity. Did he associate himself with all sorts of people? Yes, to what end though? Was he friends with Pontius Pilate? Was he friends with the Prostitutes, just casually chatting and never admonishing them for their lifestyle? Or was he preaching to them, calling them to repentance and to walk with him and his way? He was at heart a subversive force within the Jewish community by convincing others to go with him instead of the Pharisees. This is why the Pharisees hated him.

It's not about living in a bubble, but it is about setting up safeguards for a community and any group that's smart will do this if they want to preserve themselves and their way of life. This goes for nations, this goes for clubs and it especially goes for religions. There's a reason why the Islamic world has successfully resisted Christianization, mainly because they persecute Christians and let them know of their subordinate status within Islamic society. There is a reason why the Romans weren't able to convert Christians to become decent Pagans, because Christians resisted becoming part of the mainstream. They didn't join the army, they didn't sacrifice to Caesar and they kept their communion and services limited to only baptized members of the community.

Now, if you want to pretend that setting up safe guards of appropriate behavior and associations is contrary to Christianity, then you'll be arguing against the entire history of the Church. It also would explain why the United Methodists are probably going to die out sooner or later. They are utterly unwilling to say no or have some line that cannot be crossed.

Even back in John Wesley's day, being a "Methodist" was originally considered an insult, so I suppose if being Methodist is what you've got, then I'm in good company.

Methodists from the very beginning of the movement within the Anglican church have always been out in the midst of society, even in the midst of what was considered to be the very worst of society, getting our hands dirty, participating in social causes, and associating with the least and less desirable.

We don't need to worry about "hostile forces" as God already has the victory. Like Paul, we are "convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)

If you're living your life hidden away in a bubble in fear of the outside world and "hostile forces" then you are living a life enslaved to these very hostile forces you fear.

We aren't commissioned to sit in safety in self-preservation, but to go out into the world. Islam is not exactly a role model for Christ and his Way.

JohnT · Nov 19, 2020

Sparagmos said:
But they didn’t describe what the employee said. You’re jumping to conclusions. Also, insubordination means something specific:failure to follow a direct order. No mention of that in this case.

Let's reread what she posted:

cloudyday2 said:
but one of my employees made a comment in front of others in conversation with me that implied I have some interest in witchcraft. I found myself cringing at the thought that Christian family members and employees might treat me less positively as a result.

While I agree that it is not detailed what was actually said, it is somewhat irrelevant because she took it as an attack against her business from which she earns her living. Attacking the means of supporting your family is by definition an act of sabotage.

What I urged her to do was to have a "meeting for clarification"

While the definition for "insubordination" may include refusing a direct order, the synonyms for that word include anarchy , contempt , defiance , disloyalty , disrespect , insurrection , mutiny , rebellion , resistance , revolt , and sedition. None of those contribute to a healthy business relationship, and that is the real objective.

The net effect was that the boss perceived a direct threat to her, the business and to the other employees. Therefore, a clarification of intentions is required.

No one knows the intentions of the employee, and the boss could be wrong, Nevertheless, a clarification will clear the air permitting all to work more harmoniously

PS I add this to emphasize my point:

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. ...

Robban · Nov 19, 2020

JohnT said:
Let's reread what she posted:

While I agree that it is not detailed what was actually said, it is somewhat irrelevant because she took it as an attack against her business from which she earns her living. Attacking the means of supporting your family is by definition an act of sabotage.

What I urged her to do was to have a "meeting for clarification"

While the definition for "insubordination" may include refusing a direct order, the synonyms for that word include anarchy , contempt , defiance , disloyalty , disrespect , insurrection , mutiny , rebellion , resistance , revolt , and sedition. None of those contribute to a healthy business relationship, and that is the real objective.

The net effect was that the boss perceived a direct threat to her, the business and to the other employees. Therefore, a clarification of intentions is required.

No one knows the intentions of the employee, and the boss could be wrong, Nevertheless, a clarification will clear the air permitting all to work more harmoniously

Cloudy is a female?

I thought cloudy was a bloke.

JohnT · Nov 19, 2020

Zoness said:
Are we so quick to forget the Christian meltdown about the red holiday cups at Starbucks?

Starbucks red holiday cups--whatever they are are incomparable to the many verses in the Bible, which
speak of witchcraft. If we are to be God-honoring, we must obey Him, and not other humans

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Isaiah 8:19 - And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Deuteronomy 18:10 - There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

Leviticus 20:27 - A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.

As I wrote above, there are more verses for that subject, but there can be no doubt that God does NOT condone any sort of witchcraft. When He caused the Bible to be written, God did not stutter. He said what he means, and means what He says.

So with all due respect, I request that you take up your arguing against what I posted with God, not me.

JohnT · Nov 19, 2020

Robban said:
Cloudy is a female?

I thought cloudy was a bloke.

Witches are women, men are warlocks in that occult. That is why I perceived her as a woman

awitch · Nov 19, 2020

JohnT said:
Leviticus 20:27 - A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.

So with all due respect, I request that you take up your arguing against what I posted with God, not me.

Did you really just type out "with all due respect" after quoting a verse about the call to violently put us to death?

awitch · Nov 19, 2020

JohnT said:
Witches are women, men are warlocks in that occult. That is why I perceived her as a woman

Witch can refer to females and males.
I am a male and use the term "witch".
"Warlock" is a pejorative term and its use is largely discontinued.

awitch · Nov 19, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
I'm not a witch, but one of my employees made a comment in front of others in conversation with me that implied I have some interest in witchcraft. I found myself cringing at the thought that Christian family members and employees might treat me less positively as a result.

Apparently your fears of maltreatment by Christians at the mere perception of having an interest is entirely justified. They don't even need to know anything else about you.

JohnT · Nov 19, 2020

awitch said:
My mere presence is enough to endanger someone's soul? Neat.

Your snark is noted.

Just for clarification for all to see, could you explain the things that happen there in your coven "worship", and explain the symbolism of the obelisk and the spell casting?

JohnT · Nov 19, 2020

Sparagmos said:
But they didn’t describe what the employee said. You’re jumping to conclusions

In the absence of better data, both of us are jumping to conclusions. To argue about something which we have no way to evaluate is foolishness. All we can do is take the poster at her word, and her impression of what was stated.

In the end, neither of us are going to know the context, nor the real words stated. Let's give it a rest, OK?

awitch · Nov 19, 2020

JohnT said:
Your snark is noted.

Just for clarification for all to see, could you explain the things that happen there in your coven "worship", and explain the symbolism of the obelisk and the spell casting?

I'm a solitary practitioner, not part of coven.
The obelisk has no particular symbolism for me and is not incorporated into any ritual of my design.
Spell casting is psychological, not supernatural.
I can explain a ritual but you'd have to start a separate thread to ask for details as per the rules.

JohnT · Nov 19, 2020

awitch said:
Spell casting is psychological, not supernatural.

If it is merely a psychological phenomenon, why do y'all practice it since your indication is that it is merely playing "mind games" having no effect in reality?

awitch · Nov 19, 2020

JohnT said:
If it is merely a psychological phenomenon, why do y'all practice it since your indication is that it is merely playing "mind games" having no effect in reality?

It can have a real effect on my personal mental state, but it's exceptionally rare that I have any use for it. My path is focused on far more interesting things.

cloudyday2 · Nov 19, 2020

Robban said:
Cloudy is a female?

I thought cloudy was a bloke.

You were right originally - I'm a bloke. My cat is a bloke too. Just two bachelors in a messy apartment LOL

cloudyday2 · Nov 19, 2020

QvQ said:
Witches, historically have used recreational drugs, Henbane, Spanish Fly, Peyote (Brujos). There are cases in Spanish Inquisition where men were paid to blight neighbor's fields using a "powder" provided by a witch. (biological warfare). Witches were also abortionist.

Lots of people in addition to witches used those things.
- Henbane was the used in pilsner beers before they switched to hops. It added an extra intoxicating effect.
- Peyote was used by Native Americans.
- Abortion was practiced in all cultures from ancient times.

QvQ · Nov 19, 2020

Drugs have been used for centuries for medicine and food. Recreational or harmful use of drugs in another matter (witchcraft) Brujo is the word for Native Americans who use herbs for purposes other than healing.
Abortion, exactly where and when has the Christian Church or European culture condoned abortion as a legitimate medical practice?
The concept of Doctor versus Witch Doctor is the ethical/unethical practice of the healing arts.

cloudyday2 · Nov 19, 2020

JohnT said:
Witches are women, men are warlocks in that occult. That is why I perceived her as a woman

The modern usage of "witch" is unisex - at least in the US.

cloudyday2 · Nov 19, 2020

awitch said:
Witch can refer to females and males.
I am a male and use the term "witch".
"Warlock" is a pejorative term and its use is largely discontinued.

That's interesting about "warlock". Has the term always been pejorative?

dlamberth · Nov 19, 2020

JohnT said:
If it is merely a psychological phenomenon, why do y'all practice it since your indication is that it is merely playing "mind games" having no effect in reality?

I've seen pictures of groups of Christians praying in the Orans position which is praying with Hands extended. It looks for all the world to me like they are trying to channel energy towards the intended prayer target. And when done as a group it looks to me like they believe that their energy transfer is way more powerful with more impact when performed that way. When these pictures cross my screen it always strikes me as as a form of spell casting. And than there's the pictures of Evangelical leaders gathered around Trump that hit me the same way as they touch each other and the president. I suppose that because it's Christian that it's not considered casting a spell. But I see no difference. Or is it is merely a psychological phenomenon that really has no effect in reality?

awitch · Nov 19, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
That's interesting about "warlock". Has the term always been pejorative?

Sounds like it always had a negative connotation at best.
The original meaning was something along the lines of oath-breaker, deceiver, or traitor. Later on it was associated with male witches who abandoned Christianity to make a pact with the devil. Modern Pagans abandoned the term in the 20th century.

Stigma of witchcraft

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