LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

Dale · Nov 16, 2020

Peter1000 said:
OK, one more lesson on BOM and science. In 1830 people of science and non science laughed their heads off that JS said he had translated the BOM from gold plates, which they said was the stupidest thing they had ever heard. People did not write on gold plates, especially ignorant Indians from the Americas. How stupid does JS think we are?

Well some years later, what do you know, a scientist/archeologist finds gold plates in Central America and to his utter surprise there was writing on them. And many more have been found since that first discovery. Huh, was JS was right in 1830? Was science wrong in 1830?

Oh, Christians have no knowledge of Kolob. We are trying to bring you up to speed, but you are hard to convince. Where do you think heaven is anyway? When Jesus said to Mary he was going to his God and his Father, where do you Christians think Jesus went, anyway? I would like to know?

That is where you are mistaken. We are not asking you to make us equal with Christianity, we only ask that you acknowledge that we are Christians. You know as the scriptures say that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Notice the scriptures do not say that the ___________ (add you church name) were called Christians first in Antioch. We are disciples of Jesus Chirst.

Peter1000 said:
Has God given men that knowledge? Is it possible that God lives on a star, or a planet? When Jesus told Mary that he was going to go to his Father and his God, where in the universe do you think he went? I would like to know?

Tell us where the throne of God is, as written in Revelations 4?

Peter in post #82:
"Where do you think heaven is anyway? When Jesus said to Mary he was going to his God and his Father, where do you Christians think Jesus went, anyway? I would like to know?"

Peter in post #86:
"When Jesus told Mary that he was going to go to his Father and his God, where in the universe do you think he went?"

You seem to be asking where Jesus went when he ascended into heaven.

I have always assumed that Jesus moved His body forward in time to the time of the Second Coming.

mac777 · Nov 17, 2020

Dale said:
Joseph Smith believed that "God," or "Gods," created our sun and solar system, including the earth, by pushing matter together. In the 19th century, astronomers believed, or assumed, that our sun would burn, produce heat and light, forever. They didn't know how the sun produced light and heat so they had no reason to make any other prediction. (Science is cautious.)

By the early 20th century, scientists realized that our sun produces heat and light by fusing hydrogen atoms into helium atoms. In the case of our sun, or other stars the same size, it fuses four hydrogen atoms into one helium atom. Larger stars can fuse six or eight hydrogen atoms at a time. Once science understood the mechanism for a star producing heat and light, it became obvious that the sun's supply of hydrogen would eventually run out. The sun's lifetime is measured in billions of years but it is finite.

Joseph Smith told us that "God" lives on a planet near the star Kolob. If so, Kolob, like our sun, will eventually run out of hydrogen and reach its end stage. JS assumed that stars, once formed, would last forever. It never occurred to him that his "God" would eventually have to vacate his heavenly home and look for a new one, or create a new one. It looks like LDS heavens aren't permanent.

Likewise, JS wasn't familiar with the law of entropy. According to the laws of thermodynamics, the entire universe must eventually run out of energy and run down, becoming a cold, dark, place.

Do modern Mormons ever think about this? It is clear that Joseph Smith's view of eternity was limited by what science knew, and did not know, in the early 19th century. We know more about the physical universe today. We know that the earth will not always be inhabitable, that our sun will not last forever, and even the physical universe as a whole won't last forever.

Traditional Christianity never thought that God was limited by the physical universe. The Mormon religion starts from the assumption that their God is limited by the physical universe. That limitation is a serious problem.

Are you a Christian? Why are you making Scientists out to be Gods? The Scientists are the very men that deny the existance of God, reject our Saviours gospel, promote all manner of theories as infallible truths and uninspired men take up their theories to challenge the bible and its gospel truths.
If you want to seek to dispute joseph smiths ideas concerning were God resides then if you are a religious man show us from the bible, not from godless men why you feel Joseph smith is right or wrong....

BigDaddy4 · Nov 18, 2020

mac777 said:
Are you a Christian? Why are you making Scientists out to be Gods? The Scientists are the very men that deny the existance of God, reject our Saviours gospel, promote all manner of theories as infallible truths and uninspired men take up their theories to challenge the bible and its gospel truths.
If you want to seek to dispute joseph smiths ideas concerning were God resides then if you are a religious man show us from the bible, not from godless men why you feel Joseph smith is right or wrong....

I disagree. Here is a list of known Christian scientists throughout history through today, many of whom lead scientific breakthroughs in their respective fields:

List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia

Francis Collins is on the forefront of the COVID crisis for the NIH.

Francis Collins (born 1950): director of the National Institutes of Health and former director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute. He has also written on religious matters in articles and the book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.[218][219]

mac777 · Nov 18, 2020

BigDaddy4 said:
I disagree. Here is a list of known Christian scientists throughout history through today, many of whom lead scientific breakthroughs in their respective fields:

List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia

Francis Collins is on the forefront of the COVID crisis for the NIH.

Francis Collins (born 1950): director of the National Institutes of Health and former director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute. He has also written on religious matters in articles and the book The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.[218][219]

Very true my brother there are some believers in God whom are scientists, but they are in a minority, the vast bulk of modern scientists are godless men as you well know that totally deny the existance of God and His role in creation, etc, etc.

BigDaddy4 · Nov 18, 2020

mac777 said:
Very true my brother there are some believers in God whom are scientists, but they are in a minority, the vast bulk of modern scientists are godless men as you well know that totally deny the existance of God and His role in creation, etc, etc.

I don't make such blanket statements because I do not know the beliefs of the vast bulk of modern scientists.

Daniel Marsh · Nov 18, 2020

BobRyan said:
well I have a lot of complaints about LDS doctrine but the idea that God would be doing something inside the actual universe -- like having angels around a real throne in some real place... is not one of my complaints against LDS doctrine.

Christ raised himself from the dead. The tomb was really filled at one time and is now really physically empty. The guards around the real physical tomb fell like dead men. The fact that God can express Himself as having the property of location - is not an argument for Mormonism or against the Trinity.

Were those Guards Asleep?

Daniel Marsh · Nov 18, 2020

He is the way said:
Not that Joseph Smith was a scientist, but there is a book https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Scientist-Widtsoe-John/dp/1594628122 which shows that Joseph Smith did know much about the universe.

Now I am confused. I thought LDS teaches that JS was uneducated.

Daniel Marsh · Nov 18, 2020

He is the way said:
Yes, the Book of Mormon proves that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion and a person can get closer to God by living according to the precepts set forth therein.

I thought LDS teaches that JS was the instrument of translating the BOM.

BobRyan · Nov 18, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
Were those Guards Asleep?

well they did get paid for saying that...

Daniel Marsh · Nov 18, 2020

mac777 said:
Very true my brother there are some believers in God whom are scientists, but they are in a minority, the vast bulk of modern scientists are godless men as you well know that totally deny the existance of God and His role in creation, etc, etc.

Science was first started by believers in God.
List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia
List of medieval European scientists - Wikipedia
15 Famous Muslim (Arab & Persian) Scientists and their Inventions
List of Scientists

He is the way · Nov 18, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
Now I am confused. I thought LDS teaches that JS was uneducated.

He did not have much of a formal education. Much of his education came from God.

He is the way · Nov 18, 2020

Daniel Marsh said:
I thought LDS teaches that JS was the instrument of translating the BOM.

The Book of Mormon was translated by the power of God in just 65 working days most or all of it without any written material present while dictating it to his scribes.

Ran77 · Nov 18, 2020

Dale said:
You don't seem to be aware that John Gill lived from 1697 to 1771. He was English and became a Baptist pastor. He was a child prodigy who knew Greek by the time he was 11. He is regarded as a profound scholar and that is why he is quoted even today.

That's fine. He is still not a source of scripture. And he is not on the forum for me to debate directly. Which means, I'm not interested in what he wrote and I don't consider any of his views binding on Christianity as a whole.

Dale · Nov 19, 2020

Ran77 said:
That's fine. He is still not a source of scripture. And he is not on the forum for me to debate directly. Which means, I'm not interested in what he wrote and I don't consider any of his views binding on Christianity as a whole.

Does it occur to you that we could say the same about Joseph Smith?

He is the way · Nov 19, 2020

Dale said:
Does it occur to you that we could say the same about Joseph Smith?

You could say the same about Joseph Smith and you would be wrong. The Book of Mormon is proof that Joseph Smith was/is a prophet of God. Did John Gill receive any revelations from God?

mmksparbud · Nov 19, 2020

He is the way said:
You could say the same about Joseph Smith and you would be wrong. The Book of Mormon is proof that Joseph Smith was/is a prophet of God. Did John Gill receive any revelations from God?

The BOM is proof that J is not a prophet of God.

Dale · Nov 19, 2020

Peter1000 said:
Has God given men that knowledge? Is it possible that God lives on a star, or a planet? When Jesus told Mary that he was going to go to his Father and his God, where in the universe do you think he went? I would like to know?

Tell us where the throne of God is, as written in Revelations 4?

Peter: "Tell us where the throne of God is, as written in Revelations 4?"

Revelation is highly symbolic. Most of Revelation is not intended to be literal.

I don't know whether God sits on a literal throne but I know that He has more power than anyone who does or ever has. Look at what Paul says about heaven.

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be
gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught
up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of
the body I do not know — God knows.
And I know that this man — whether in the body or apart
from the body I do not know, but God knows —
was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things,
things that man is not permitted to tell.
2 Corinthians 12:1-4 NIV

Paul certainly doesn't say that heaven is a physical place or that there is a solid, literal Throne of God. You have to understand that Paul is arguing with Gnostics, who say that matter is evil. If Paul wasn't dealing with the claims of the Gnostics, he might well say that heaven is spiritual, not physical. He doesn't say that because he is trying to get Gnostics to rethink their simple-minded notion that matter is evil.

He is the way · Nov 19, 2020

mmksparbud said:
The BOM is proof that J is not a prophet of God.

Wrong

Dale · Nov 19, 2020

Ran77 said:
Luke 24: 39

Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.

(The Bible teaches that too.)

Luke 24: 42-43

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

(The Bible teaches that too.)

There is evidence of this in the Bible, but it does not make as clear a statement as the previous two examples.

As do the same stars and planets that are part of mainstream Christianity.

I doubt I'm any more concerned about it than you are. You live in the same universe as me. Anything that provides a solution to this supposed concern from mainstream Christianity would be equally true for us.

What's going to happen to you when this universe expires? How will that effect God? I'm curious about your thoughts on this matter.

He is the way said:
God is LOVE:

(New Testament | 1 John 4:8)

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:34)

34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Yes God the Father does have a spiritual body of flesh and bones, and so will we:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:42 - 46)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

(New Testament | John 5:21 - 32)

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 ¶ There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Peter1000 said:
Could Kolob be in the 3rd heaven? You don't know and until I see it, I have to believe by faith.

If God and the angels don't need a star or planet, are they just drifiting in open space somewhere. Be reasonable. It would be far more reasonable that they are situated on a rather large planet, rather than just drifting out there in space, right?

Where will the New Jerusalem be, if not on a planet? Will we all be in the New Jerusalem, just drifting in open space somewhere? Think about it just for a few seconds and you will see your dilemma, and JS's concept may not seem so far fetched.

Mormons deny that God is Spirit, they insist that God has a physical body.
The LDS church is very Old Testament oriented because of the emphasis placed on works.
So let's go back to the Ten Commandments.

“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of
anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the
waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God ...
Exodus 20: 4-5 NIV

“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of
anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the
waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God ...
Deuteronomy 5:8-9 NIV

God prohibits the Israelites from trying to make a statue or any other image out of Him.

God is to be worshiped but not represented by stone, wood or metal.

Why? Because God is Spirit. He doesn't have a form that can be represented.

God doesn't have a physical body that can be represented in a statue.

It's right there at the beginning of the Ten Commandments.

He is the way · Nov 19, 2020

Dale said:
Mormons deny that God is Spirit, they insist that God has a physical body.
The LDS church is very Old Testament oriented because of the emphasis placed on works.
So let's go back to the Ten Commandments.

“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of
anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the
waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God ...
Exodus 20: 4-5 NIV

“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of
anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the
waters below.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the
LORD your God, am a jealous God ...
Deuteronomy 5:8-9 NIV

God prohibits the Israelites from trying to make a statue or any other image out of Him.

God is to be worshiped but not represented by stone, wood or metal.

Why? Because God is Spirit. He doesn't have a form that can be represented.

God doesn't have a physical body that can be represented in a statue.

It's right there at the beginning of the Ten Commandments.

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:27)

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

(New Testament | 1 John 3:2)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

God has a spiritual body:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:44 - 46)

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

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