SDA's and the Reformation

BibleDisciple said:

GaryK, I don't think you are being fair to my comments. We could make a long list of things that stay the same. The sun will come up tomorrow. The grass will still be green tomorrow. The sky should still still be blue. Yes, God is and will be the same, too.

We can agree that culture is becoming more sinful. (and that society is changing). I never implied that a Christian or a church should follow society. The sad fact is that they generally do. This is what I was trying to point out. The church should be a rock in shifting sands, but the sad truth is that compromise slips on.

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Sorry about that. That was how I read the post you're referring to. I don't have any problem with what you're saying here. I agree with it, but couldn't see this idea in your previous post. I just posted my reaction to what I understood you to be saying.

Forums are a hard way to communicate for most communication between two people is non-verbal so not being able to see body language or hear tone of voice leaves out a lot of human communication.

BibleDisciple said:

GaryK, I don't think you are being fair to my comments. We could make a long list of things that stay the same. The sun will come up tomorrow. The grass will still be green tomorrow. The sky should still still be blue. Yes, God is and will be the same, too.

We can agree that culture is becoming more sinful. (and that society is changing). I never implied that a Christian or a church should follow society. The sad fact is that they generally do. This is what I was trying to point out. The church should be a rock in shifting sands, but the sad truth is that compromise slips on.

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The point of everything I said is what is our response to the cycle of revival and compromise going to be? Are we going to respond with, well, that's just the way things have always been and shrug our shoulders? Or are we going to look around us and determine that we are sick of seeing all the misery, suffering, death, and evil all around us say that we going to bring an end to all this? Are we going to be accountable to God for our sin, and truly decide to know God rather than being of two minds?

How can we decide to put an end to the status quo? Ellen White tells us.

“When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the
sickle, because the harvest is come.” Christ is waiting with longing
desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the
character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then
He will come to claim them as His own.
COL page 69

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There is what has to happen before Christ can come. Do we love God to really become just like Him in character. Will we dedicate ourselves to that goal? Ellen White also tells us how this can happen within us.

The Lord is disappointed when His people place a low estimate upon themselves. He desires His chosen heritage to value themselves according to the price He has placed upon them. God wanted them, else He would not have sent His Son on such an expensive errand to redeem them. He has a use for them, and He is well pleased when they make the very highest demands upon Him, that they may glorify His name. They may expect large things if they have faith in His promises.

But to pray in Christ’s name means much. It means that we are to accept His character, manifest His spirit, and work His works. The Saviour’s promise is given on condition. “If ye love Me,” He says, “keep My commandments.” He saves men, not in sin, but from sin; and those who love Him will show their love by obedience.

All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us.
Desire of Ages page 669

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I don't quote these things to you to say you're evil. I quote them to you and fully acknowledge that I myself have been far too disinterested in getting to know God as it is my privilege to know Him so that His character can be reproduced in me so that Jesus can come and put an end to this vale of tears to dedicate myself to that level of knowing God.

How much can we say we love our fellow man if we don't make God putting an end to sin our #1 priority and are satisfied with the way things have always been when the world is in the condition it is and the amount of pain and suffering going on around us is increasing exponentially?

Do you know how quickly our characters can be changed so that we can have the Holy Spirit poured out upon us in the latter rain when we dedicate ourselves fully and completely? Ellen White says sanctification is the work of a lifetime, but I think what she meant by that was that our entire life is to be dedicated fully to God. On the night of Christ's trial Peter cursed and swore that he didn't know Jesus. A month and a half later the Holy Spirit was poured out because all the people in the upper room were of one accord. There were no personal or spiritual disputes left. They were fully devoted to God. Christ was number one in every one of their lives. And Peter, that same guy who cursed and swore he didn't know Jesus a month and a half earlier, preached the sermon on the day of Pentacost. A group of guys who were always disputing who was going to be number one in an earthly kingdom were now completely dedicated to being servants of Jesus. It happened to them, and it can happen to us too.

In my mind there just isn't any reason this cannot happen again if all of us just dedicate ourselves and make God number one in all our lives. I mean it's not like God wants to watch all the suffering that is going on in this world and see His creation suffering. It's His people that aren't ready. But, first we have to believe it is possible for Jesus told us that it will be done to us according to our faith.

There is an excellent series of 5 sermons by Lewis Walton titled Rediscovering Calvary available for free download on American Christian Ministries. He delves deeply into what I've been speaking to in this post.

REDISCOVERING CALVARY

BibleDisciple said:

So now we have (or assume) Joe Biden as our next president. I don't see this as a positive for the morality of this nation. Trump has his problems, but I never thought that abortion would ever be challenged in this nation again. I applaud him for that, even if he has absolutely no control over his tongue (or fingers for Twitter).

So GaryK, you rightly want to end this status quo that this world seems to be in. I would agree that reading Ellen White would help bring that about. I find her writings soothing to my soul.

It seems to me that you are the optimist, and I am a pessimist. I see the trends taking place, and it doesn't look good.

You are absolutely correct that what I see happening to the world should not be happening to us. If Biden and Harris manage to legalize prostitution, it should have no effect on our activities. Whether or not Marijuana is a legal drug or not should not matter to us personally. What we see is a sad decline into immorality, but we should personally stand against it. I just don't see a positive trend for what is around us.

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Our world has gone completely insane. The devil is making his final moves and the angels holding back the winds of strife are beginning to let them loose. And it looks to me like the Holy Spirit is beginning to be withdrawn as the behavior we are now seeing is like nothing we have ever seen before. Is it as bad as it's going to get? I don't think so. Once again, Ellen White tells us that we can't even imagine what it's going to be like when the Holy Spirit is fully withdrawn and all we will be able to see in the world is demonic behavior. And the level of deception, and the willingness to accept falsehoods is like nothing I've ever seen during my lifetime. Ellen White tells us that just before the flood the people hated truth and grasped at a tissue of falsehoods. You can find that statement in the SDA Bible Commentaries in her comments on Genesis 6:11. That's how I see our world today and Jesus said when He comes the earth will be just like it was in the days of Noah.

Everything I have said about knowing God being being the key to sanctification is found throughout the Bible. Ellen White just confirms what the Bible says. The decision to dedicate ourselves to knowing Him well enough to completely change our lives is up to us. Ellen White tells us that if we don't change, if we don't dedicate ourselves fully to God, we will be replaced. Others will do the closing work.

I really don't understand why there is so little interest in righteousness by faith. Every time I have brought it up here the subject has drawn no interest, yet Ellen White tells us that the 3rd angels message is "in verity" RxF. It is the centerpiece of all of our doctrines and ties them all together putting Jesus at the very center of our theology. And we are also told that somewhere between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 100 of us truly understand RxF. It is the closing message to this world and we, as a church, seem to have very little interest in truly understanding it. If we did have a great interest RxF it would be the uppermost subject in our thoughts. We would be discussing it daily to improve our understanding of it. We would see it as the most important subject to tell the rest of the world about.

I have more to say on this, but I have some things I have to do right now.

BibleDisciple said:

I think you touched on one Biblical example of what to expect in the future, and that is the time of Noah. The other that comes to mind is Sodom and Gomorrah. Another example is the destruction of the tribe of Benjamin that also involved homosexual rape mobs, like Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't know what the main sin in the end time will be. Genesis 6 and the preflood world seem to be violence, while the other two examples are gross sexual sin.

Social media has revolutionized disinformation. Anyone can act like an expert and spread any false idea. My wife loves her Tiktok...

In the past, the devil spread false religion. It seems like his new deception is atheism. Instead of worshiping a false Jesus, spread evolution with no God (or Jesus). That is part of the reason that the topic of righteousness is dying. Atheism is not what I see in the book of Revelation at the end, though.

I don't fully understand Righteousness by faith. I understand that God has a law, the ten commandments, that needs to be kept, and if you don't do it, your sins will separate you from God, and you will never be able to do it perfectly. If keeping the law could earn us righteousness, none would be righteous. But then Christ's sacrifice makes us righteous, apart from works. I confess that I am a recovering legalist.

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Christ not only justifies us, He changes us through the work of the Holy Spirit. Paul tells us that it is God who works within us both to will and to do God's good pleasure. He also tells us that the fruit of the Spirit in our lives breaks no law.

Remember the thief on the cross discussion about sanctification here in this forum? In being born again while on the cross he had already changed from a dishonest man to the most honest man present at the crucifixion. A lifetime of deceit and dishonesty had changed into an outstanding honesty.

John tells us that whoever abideth in Him, sinneth not. Is John lying to us? Did Jesus set us up to fail when He told us to be perfect just like our Father in heaven is perfect? I say no to both questions. So, if we are still sinning it means there is problem with our relationship with God. We are not always abiding. The problem is our lack of consistently abiding in Christ that causes us to fall into sin. Ellen White tells us that when we know God as it our privilege to know Him our lives will be lives of continual obedience. I know from experience that when I am tempted to sin, no matter how great the temptation, if I immediately ask God in prayer to defeat this temptation He answers my prayer said in faith. I have a short fuse, and I know it, but when irritation starts to get to me and I just turn to God and tell Him about it and confess my weakness and ask Him to take care of the problem that prayer is answered. Within moments what I cannot do for myself God does for me. My irritation fades and I am once more at peace. Don't ask me how He accomplishes this but He does it. But, I have to truly want the victory and have trust in Him that He will do as He as promised. The Bible is full of promises for the overcoming of sin. But they don't help us if we don't claim them in faith.

Meditate on the meaning of the following quote.

Of the Spirit Jesus said, “He shall glorify Me.” The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people. {DA 671.3}

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God doesn't mean for us to fail to be like Him. Think about the idea that the very honor of the Father and Jesus is involved in sanctifying us. Giving us victory over sin and perfecting our characters. The problem in my life has always been in failing to truly understand what it means. How great the power of God truly is. Jesus said that to know God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent is life eternal.

Do we really grasp what that means? Do we really believe it? Or do we just pass by these statements without really thinking about them? Jesus told us that it will be done to us according to our faith.

Matthew 9:27 ¶And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

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I can tell you that over the decades this has proven true in my life. If I get distracted by the devil or if I don't really believe God can do what I ask Him to do in my life, my prayers are not answered. Jesus told His disciples that "all power" was given unto Him. Do we grasp this in actuality? Think about it. We have in a Savior whom has "all power" given to Him and He has promised to give us what we need in all spiritual matters. Do we really believe that when we pray? Do we really believe God will do anything that "all power" can for us when we ask Him to change us?

This is the basics of RxF. It revolves around our belief and trust in God and His ability to make us new creatures. He promised it and He has the power to accomplish it in our lives.

This is the importance of the Sabbath.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

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Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.

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Righteousness by Faith is called righteousness by faith for both parts of it, justification and sanctification, are accomplished in our lives by and through faith. Our only part in both is to accept these things by faith. We can't even begin to root sin out of our lives. It's like David says, we were born in iniquity and in sin did our mothers conceive us. Sin is baked into our very DNA. So how can we even begin to root sin our of our own lives? Our only hope is to trust God to do what He has promised and turn to Him to change our lives. When we understand that we can understand why John says that whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not. Not by might nor by power but by my Spirit saith the Lord. God's promises are sure. We just have to actually believe that with all our hearts, souls and minds and cling to Jesus the same way Jacob did the night of Jacob's trouble. He prevailed with God because he would not let God go, in the form of the preincarnate Jesus until he received the blessing he asked for. That is a very profound spiritual lesson.

BibleDisciple said:

So now we have (or assume) Joe Biden as our next president. I don't see this as a positive for the morality of this nation. Trump has his problems, but I never thought that abortion would ever be challenged in this nation again. I applaud him for that, even if he has absolutely no control over his tongue (or fingers for Twitter).

So GaryK, you rightly want to end this status quo that this world seems to be in. I would agree that reading Ellen White would help bring that about. I find her writings soothing to my soul.

It seems to me that you are the optimist, and I am a pessimist. I see the trends taking place, and it doesn't look good.

You are absolutely correct that what I see happening to the world should not be happening to us. If Biden and Harris manage to legalize prostitution, it should have no effect on our activities. Whether or not Marijuana is a legal drug or not should not matter to us personally. What we see is a sad decline into immorality, but we should personally stand against it. I just don't see a positive trend for what is around us.

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Indeed.

Oregon legalized hard drugs. It positions itself tol be the mexican drug cartel of America.
Religious Liberty and civil liberty would "take flight" with the proposed administration.
But God has been unmasking crime in these past few months... so we will see what happens.

Gary K said:

Why would you not attach the SDA church to the Reformation? It follows the principles of the Reformation.

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Then it followed the reformation just like a new denomination starting this week could also make the same claim, they would be following the reformation but cannot insert themselves back in history as being one of the reformation churches.

I guess it depends on the context where one is using the term.

BibleDisciple said:

I view Sabbath keeping as being around for millenniums, so I don't view myself as being a product of the reformation. I enjoy the religious liberties that followed, but there were Sabbath keeping Christians before Luther and there will always be Sabbath keeping Christians in the future until the ressurrection. Ellen White talks about multiple reformations in one of her books with the Waldensians being one of them.

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Agreed but was the Waldensian church trying to "come out" or "correct" itself after finding it was in error - or were they initially preserving truth while the mainline church was splitting off into error?

Protestants came out of a church that was found to have some doctrinal error - and were trying to correct it via those "protests" - to set it back on course.

Ellen White tells us we have to stand before God without Jesus being our mediator and the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn. Where does the Bible tell us such things?

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Bob S said:

Ellen White tells us we have to stand before God without Jesus being our mediator

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Not if you fail to survive the time of trouble, or COVID or any other such thing.

The bible tells us in Rev 15:8 that Christ's high priestly ministry in the sanctuary in heaven ends so that there can be a Rev 16 period of plagues. Were you trying to say that Ellen White agrees with the Bible at that point?

Christ is with the saints always - but Christ is not always in heaven as high priest asking for yet another sin to be forgiven as Rev 15:8 points out ... those are two different things.

details matter for SDAs.

Rev15:8 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Details? The verse does not say Jesus ended anything. It said no man could enter. Again, Jesus promised us He would be with us until the end. Why is that so hard to believe? Details matter to all Christians. Man has been struggling with the book of Revelation, as to its meaning, since it was first discovered. We don't have to struggle with Jesus promises, we claim them.

Bob S said:

Rev15:8 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Details? The verse does not say Jesus ended anything.

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Some Bible study would be helpful at that point. If you are really interested in "details"

1 John 2:1 says that "we have an Advocate with the Father"
1 Tim 2:4 as the "one Mediator between God and mankind"
Heb 8:1-5 says "the main point" is that Jesus is our High Priest IN HEAVEN - in the sanctuary that is "in heaven" -- and there He makes "intercession for us" Heb 4.

But in the 7 plagues we see that by contrast the "wrath of God is poured out" on mankind.
Rev 15:1 "Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished."
Rev 16:1 "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

So when that sanctuary is shut down " till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled"

We see that the only way that "the wrath of God" in chapter 16 can be poured out is for that intercession between God and man to end as we see in Rev 15:8. Which it will as we see in Rev 15:8 and not until then will Earth experience the Wrath of God poured out without mixture

While the wicked suffer the wrath of God - the saints are protected by Him, Christ is with the saints still - but Christ's work as High Priest will have ended so that the plagues may be poured out on mankind.

Of course you have free will and can believe what you wish - but as for the rest... that are open to Bible details noted above. Well that is why we have one of the fastest growing Christian denominations on planet Earth today.

Why are these Bible texts so hard for some to believe? Details matter

Bob S said:

Man has been struggling with the book of Revelation, as to its meaning, since it was first discovered.

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you have free will - you can believe as you wish

BobRyan said:

Some Bible study would be helpful at that point. If you are really interested in "details"

1 John 2:1 says that "we have an Advocate with the Father"
1 Tim 2:4 as the "one Mediator between God and mankind"
Heb 8:1-5 says "the main point" is that Jesus is our High Priest IN HEAVEN - in the sanctuary that is "in heaven" -- and there He makes "intercession for us" Heb 4.

But in the 7 plagues we see that by contrast the "wrath of God is poured out" on mankind.
Rev 15:1 "Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished."
Rev 16:1 "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

So when that sanctuary is shut down " till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled"

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Assumption my friend. Nowhere does it tell us that the sanctuary is shut down.

We see that the only way that "the wrath of God" in chapter 16 can be poured out is for that intercession between God and man to end as we see in Rev 15:8. Which it will as we see in Rev 15:8 and not until then will Earth experience the Wrath of God poured out without mixture

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The fact is it never says what you would like for it to say. We cannot limit what our God can do. He is able to pour out plagues and protect us at the same time. The scripture that you supplied cannot be construed to mean God has withdrawn from believers.

While the wicked suffer the wrath of God - the saints are protected by Him, Christ is with the saints still - but Christ's work as High Priest will have ended so that the plagues may be poured out on mankind.

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Hold the phone. You cannot have it both ways. Either He is with us until the end or He His promise isn't really a promise, right?

Jesus will always be our High Priest. Nowhere does it tell us something can remove what the Father has bestowed upon Him.

Of course you have free will and can believe what you wish

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Thank you. I believe what scripture is telling me. I do not conjecture or add what I would like for the Bible to say.

- but as for the rest... that are open to Bible details noted above. Well that is why we have one of the fastest growing Christian denominations on planet Earth today.

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One of the fastest. What about the other fastest? Should I look to those for the truth? No Bob, numbers do not impress me anymore. The Holy Spirit does. The Bible is the safest place to find truth. It is not the place to use use unrelated scripture to try prove someone's preconceived ideas.

Why are these Bible texts so hard for some to believe? Details matter

BobRyan said:

Some Bible study would be helpful at that point. If you are really interested in "details"

1 John 2:1 says that "we have an Advocate with the Father"
1 Tim 2:4 as the "one Mediator between God and mankind"
Heb 8:1-5 says "the main point" is that Jesus is our High Priest IN HEAVEN - in the sanctuary that is "in heaven" -- and there He makes "intercession for us" Heb 4.

But in the 7 plagues we see that by contrast the "wrath of God is poured out" on mankind.
Rev 15:1 "Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished."
Rev 16:1 "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

So when that sanctuary is shut down " till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled"

We see that the only way that "the wrath of God" in chapter 16 can be poured out is for that intercession between God and man to end as we see in Rev 15:8. Which it will as we see in Rev 15:8 and not until then will Earth experience the Wrath of God poured out without mixture

While the wicked suffer the wrath of God - the saints are protected by Him, Christ is with the saints still - but Christ's work as High Priest will have ended so that the plagues may be poured out on mankind.

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Bob S said:

Assumption my friend.

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Bible texts my friend.
Bible study is funny that way.

Bob S said:

Nowhere does it tell us that the sanctuary is shut down.

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Until you read Rev 15:8 and Daniel 7.

Daniel 7 - "the Son of Man" comes to the Ancient of Days'
Rev 15:8 no one was able to enter the Sanctuary as it filled with smoke.

In the Bible each time this happens the service in the sanctuary cannot be conducted. It never indicated that God could/would no longer be with His people or protect them -- it meant that the work of the Sanctuary was not going on. Conflating the two - not helpful.

And the text explicitly says this must happen so the wrath of God can be poured out in the 7 plagues of Rev 7.

Details matter.

Of course you have free will and can believe what you wish - but as for the rest... that are open to Bible details noted above. Well that is why we have one of the fastest growing Christian denominations on planet Earth today.

God is is able to pour out plagues on mankind and protect the saints at the same time. Ministering in the Sanctuary cannot be conflated with God's presence with or protection of the saints. Ministering in the sanctuary as High Priest has to do with 1 John 2:2 pleading the blood for forgiveness of sin.

as previously noted in scripture.

Bible details matter.

While the wicked suffer the wrath of God - the saints are protected by Him, Christ is with the saints still - but Christ's work as High Priest will have ended so that the plagues may be poured out on mankind.

Bob S said:

Hold the phone. You cannot have it both ways. Either He is with us until the end or He His promise isn't really a promise, right?

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You are conflating two different things.

At the coming of Christ - Christ is not in the sanctuary pleading His blood for the forgiveness of sin - as almost every Christian on planet Earth will admit. In the same way - at the Rev 15:8 event of that sanctuary work of Christ as High Priest shut down for the Rev 16 wrath of God event on mankind - does not mean Christ is not "with the saints". It means he is not working as High Priest to get forgiveness for saints. That work is completed.

You are conflating Christ with the saints vs Christ as mediator pleading His blood for forgiveness of sins of the saints.

Not helpful to skip this Bible detail.

you are of course free to believe whatever you wish. You have posted repeatedly that you consider yourself to be ex-sda and you are free to pursue that course as you wish.

This forum is for SDAs to discuss points and answer questions - not to force you to change your views or to have you repeatedly skip over certain Bible details that I keep pointing out. You are free to believe whatever you wish. No one is objecting to you having whatever belief that you wish.