Calvinism and Abortion

Bible Highlighter said:

Everyone believes in works salvation to some degree. 1 John 3:23 says that to believe in Jesus is a commandments. Commandments are laws that in many cases involves action or works. John 6:29 says that work of God is to believe in Him in whom He sent. Also, most who deny that one has to live holy (or enter the Sanctification Process) as a part of salvation must admit that they can sin and still be saved. For what is the opposite of living holy? Doing evil or evil works. So one is saved by believing in Jesus + doing evil works. There are only two choices. Believe in Jesus + doing good works, OR Believe in Jesus + doing evil works. Choose wisely.

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You cannot believe in Jesus unless he first saves you. You end up with an idol instead.

Dave L said:

So Christ really didn't do that much to save them. They had it in them all the time to save themselves? Sinners are pretty glorious after all. And God doesn't measure up to the hype?

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You have things twisted around in Scripture.

Acts of the Apostles 3:19 says,
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted,..”

Notice God's Word does not say that you must wait to be converted by God before you can repent.
His Word here says repent ye (i.e. you-all) therefore, and BE CONVERTED. That is the sequence of events here.

Dave L said:

You cannot believe in Jesus unless he first saves you. You end up with an idol instead.

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#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me

Bible Highlighter said:

You have things twisted around in Scripture.

Acts of the Apostles 3:19 says,
“Repent ye therefore, and be converted,..”

Notice God's Word does not say that you must wait to be converted by God before you can repent.
His Word here says repent ye (i.e. you-all) therefore, and BE CONVERTED. That is the sequence of events here.

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Peter was talking to born again believing Jews about dropping the OT Law and converting to the New Covenant. They believed (were saved) or they would not have obeyed him.

Dave L said:

Are the unborn people? Were some of their names written in the book of life before the creation of the world? People who trust in works for salvation have trouble with this because it proves salvation does not need anything from the saved.

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Maybe, but the question is how you prove some babies are elect and some aren't.

Dave L said:

You cannot believe in Jesus unless he first saves you. You end up with an idol instead.

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This also does not really address what I said to you before in reply to your statement on works salvation. You are going to do works regardless in this life. Your works are going to be either evil or they are going to be good. The question is... “which works will you do while you are here under God's grace?” Most Christians (even those who deny works play a part of salvation in the Sanctification Process) will say that holy living will always result of a person who is truly saved (Thereby fulfilling the requirement of Sanctification).

Bible Highlighter said:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me

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You are confusing Law (it cannot save) with Grace. Law demanded free will. Grace is the complete opposite.

StillGods said:

God loves every one He has made.
Each person can either accept or reject Jesus, that does not change whether God loves them or not - God loves them for God is Love.
He is not willing that any should persish.
But He is a just God, and as such if a person rejects Jesus there are consequences to that. But Gods love for a person who rejects Him, His creation does not change, He still loves them, He doesnt love their behaviour of rejecting Him, but the person He loves, always has, always will. God showed His love for us by sending His Son to die for sinners. Such love.

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But does He love them He punishes in hell?

Dave L said:

We have no choice. You are born a slave to Satan. Or by grace made a slave of Christ. It's beyond your control.

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Maybe according to your theology.

God gives us a choice.

Dave L said:

Peter was talking to born again believing Jews about dropping the OT Law and converting to the New Covenant. They believed (were saved) or they would not have obeyed him.

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Nowere does the text say that they were already converted or saved. It says “repent... be converted.” It makes no sense to tell saved people to be converted. You cannot get around that or twist it to your own advantage.

Bible Highlighter said:

This also does not really address what I said to you before in reply to your statement on works salvation. You are going to do works regardless in this life. Your works are going to be either evil or they are going to be good. The question is... “which works will you do while you are here under God's grace?”

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Works of love are the fruit of salvation. Works of the Law cannot save.

Isilwen said:

Maybe according to your theology.

God gives us a choice.

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Not in salvation. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

StillGods said:

God loves every one He has made.
Each person can either accept or reject Jesus, that does not change whether God loves them or not - God loves them for God is Love.
He is not willing that any should persish.
But He is a just God, and as such if a person rejects Jesus there are consequences to that. But Gods love for a person who rejects Him, His creation does not change, He still loves them, He doesnt love their behaviour of rejecting Him, but the person He loves, always has, always will. God showed His love for us by sending His Son to die for sinners. Such love.

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If God loves everyone w/o exception, then please explain Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5, and Proverbs 6:16-19. God is love yes. We both agree with that. But that’s not all He is, either. He also is a God of wrath. And His wrath abides upon the disobedient ones, per John 3:36.

Bible Highlighter said:

Nowere does the text say that they were already converted or saved. It says “repent... be converted.” It makes no sense to tell saved people to be converted. You cannot get around that or twist it to your own advantage.

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Why did Paul teach repentance from the Law?

Dave L said:

Why did Paul teach repentance from the Law?

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Paul was not referring to all forms of Law (like the commandments of Jesus). If Paul attacked the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he would be proud and he would know nothing according to his own statement in 1 Timothy 6:3-4.

So why did Paul appear to speak negatively of the Law sometimes?

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); (Note: Circumcision is a part of the 613 Laws of Moses, i.e. the Old Law, and not the New Law).

In fact, a certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah (or the 613 Laws of Moses) because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. Yes, certain commands have been repeated by our Lord, but the New Covenant commands (i.e. New Testament commands) are not exactly like those of the Old Testament Law of Moses (the 613). Hebrews 7:12 says that the Law has changed.

Dave L said:

Works of love are the fruit of salvation. Works of the Law cannot save.

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Then why does Scripture say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling in Philippians 2:12?

Maria Billingsley said:

The unborn have not sinned.

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But they sinned in Adam. What Adam did in the Garden was imputed to all his posterity, including you and I. When he ate of that tree, we were in him, as he was our federal head. It was just as if you and I had ate of that tree.

Maria Billingsley said:

The unborn have not sinned.

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The wages of sin is death[Romans 6:23]. If babies haven’t sinned, then how do many die in the womb and in infancy?

Bible Highlighter said:

I agree with Original Sin, but I don't think our definitions are the same. I believe the Promise of the Savior, and His coming reversed the curse of Original Sin in regards to the Savior being able to save mankind. For Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world. The damage of Original Sin is that the physical bodies of mankind is tainted by sin. Man has an inclination to do that which is evil by his flesh. So man is tainted by sin, but with the Son of God, they can crucify the affections and lusts (i.e. they can put away mortal sin out of their lives by the power of Jesus).

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I hold that original sin describes the imputed guilt that we have in Adam (Rom. 5:12) from which the radical corruption of the human nature was conveyed to all his posterity (Rom. 8:7-8). I would agree with you that man "has an inclination to do that which is evil", but would add that it is not merely an inclination; it is an unwavering disposition of all unregenerate sinners whereby they are perpetually and totally committed to sin (Gen. 6:5).

As it pertains to the eternal destiny of the preborn, I maintain that original sin corrupts us from the moment of our conception (Ps. 51:5) and renders us guilty before God. Therefore, preborn children are no less guilty than adults and their salvation must be by grace, not according to an inherent righteousness that they possess. The implication of this is that it does not necessarily follow that all infants must be saved, but that those who are saved, which may still be all if God pleases, are saved by grace alone.

Bible Highlighter said:

Then why does Scripture say to work out your salvation with fear and trembling in Philippians 2:12?

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I do. Have you ever been chastised by God? It's not pleasant, to say the least.