New Covenant - fulfilled?

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Gregory Thompson

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No, this is my exact post:

The New Heaven/New Earth is the New Covenant (although not everyone agrees....obviously).

Meaning the bit about the bride descending from the New Heaven to the New Earth is figurative. Meaning that the New Heaven and New Earth will not exist.

Meaning, the event spoken of by Peter that the elements getting melted with fervent heat, will not happen since it is a figurative event.

Since it is possible you're not being very specific, here is your opportunity to do so.
 
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BABerean2

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You keep avoiding the main point.

Do we see Hebrews 8:11 true now in the body of Christ?


We will let the Apostle John answer your question below.

You can try to explain it away, or ask questions about preachers preparing for their sermons, but the answer is found below. What does the text say?
Does this verse apply to you?


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


.
 
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Guojing

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We will let the Apostle John answer your question below.

You can try to explain it away, or ask questions about preachers preparing for their sermons, but the answer is found below. What does the text say?
Does this verse apply to you?


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


.

So if this is true, are pastors and teachers of the Word redundant?

As long as they are still necessary in the church, Hebrews 8:11 cannot be true now. It is really a simple point.

But yes, when Jesus return for Israel in his 2nd coming and the nation accepts him, everyone among them will be transformed as what Hebrews 8:9-12 stated. That is when the new covenant is finally fulfilled.
 
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BABerean2

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So if this is true, are pastors and teachers of the Word redundant?

As long as they are still necessary in the church, Hebrews 8:11 cannot be true now. It is really a simple point.

But yes, when Jesus return for Israel in his 2nd coming and the nation accepts him, everyone among them will be transformed as what Hebrews 8:9-12 stated. That is when the new covenant is finally fulfilled.


You are arguing with the Apostle John in 1 John 2:27, instead of with me.
What does the text of that verse say?

If this is what you have to do to make your doctrine work, you may want to reconsider what you are promoting.

Either the Apostle John is confused in 1 John 2:27, or you are confused.
It is really a simple point.

.
 
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Guojing

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You are arguing with the Apostle John in 1 John 2:27, instead of with me.

If this is what you have to do to make your doctrine work, you may want to reconsider what you are promoting.

Either the Apostle John is confused in 1 John 2:27, or you are confused.
It is really a simple point.

.

No, I am simply laying out the passage describing the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:8-12. You are the one who wants to insert John into that passage.

If the New covenant promises certain things that we do not see now, you cannot say it is already fulfilled.
 
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BABerean2

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No, I am simply laying out the passage describing the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:8-12. You are the one who wants to insert John into that passage.

If the New covenant promises certain things that we do not see now, you cannot say it is already fulfilled.


Does 1 John 2:27 apply to the present time?


Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson:


.
 
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mkgal1

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Meaning the bit about the bride descending from the New Heaven to the New Earth is figurative. Meaning that the New Heaven and New Earth will not exist.

Meaning, the event spoken of by Peter that the elements getting melted with fervent heat, will not happen since it is a figurative event.

Since it is possible you're not being very specific, here is your opportunity to do so.
Life did change for those in the first century - in a material way. And the elements (of the Old Covenant) did melt with fervent heat in the fire. Biblical Judaism life completely revolved around the Temple and that entire religious system. That isn't figurative at all, for that to literally disappear (as the author of Hebrews wrote would happen in their generation - Hebrews 8:13).


Quoting from linked page:
But for Josephus, the date of the fire was not due to Roman choice. He had been trying his hardest to obtain the peaceful surrender of the rebels and in this way preserve the Temple and the city. The long, long sermon he claims to have given before the walls is surely a fabrication.

It is easy to imagine that after the destruction he would have tormented himself: "Is there something I could have said that would have saved the Temple? If I had only found the right words..." The idealized speeches can be seen as an intellectual way to handle this guilt, as indeed, perhaps, is his entire writing of the War. In these speeches he finds solace by explicitly identifiying himself with Jeremiah, another prophet who failed to save his city. There was nothing, he realizes, that he or any human could have done:

The Deity, indeed long since, had sentenced the Temple to the flames; but now in the revolution of the years had arrived the fated day, the Tenth of the Month of Lous [Av]. [...] Deeply as one must mourn for the most marvellous edifice which we have ever seen or heard of, yet may we draw very great consolation from the thought that there is no escape from Fate, for works of art and places, any more than for living beings. And one may well marvel at the exactness of the cycle of Destiny; for, as I said, she waited until the very month and the very day on which in bygone times the Temple had been burnt by the Babylonians.- War 250, 267-270
And as Andy Stanley said in a recent article:

Screenshot_20201117-110408_Facebook.jpg



"Andy Stanley on Evangelicals After Trump - The Atlantic" The Evangelical Reckoning
Begins
 
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sovereigngrace

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Life did change for those in the first century - in a material way. And the elements (of the Old Covenant) did melt with fervent heat in the fire. Biblical Judaism life completely revolved around the Temple and that entire religious system. That isn't figurative at all, for that to literally disappear (as the author of Hebrews wrote would happen in their generation - Hebrews 8:13).


Quoting from linked page:
But for Josephus, the date of the fire was not due to Roman choice. He had been trying his hardest to obtain the peaceful surrender of the rebels and in this way preserve the Temple and the city. The long, long sermon he claims to have given before the walls is surely a fabrication.

It is easy to imagine that after the destruction he would have tormented himself: "Is there something I could have said that would have saved the Temple? If I had only found the right words..." The idealized speeches can be seen as an intellectual way to handle this guilt, as indeed, perhaps, is his entire writing of the War. In these speeches he finds solace by explicitly identifiying himself with Jeremiah, another prophet who failed to save his city. There was nothing, he realizes, that he or any human could have done:

The Deity, indeed long since, had sentenced the Temple to the flames; but now in the revolution of the years had arrived the fated day, the Tenth of the Month of Lous [Av]. [...] Deeply as one must mourn for the most marvellous edifice which we have ever seen or heard of, yet may we draw very great consolation from the thought that there is no escape from Fate, for works of art and places, any more than for living beings. And one may well marvel at the exactness of the cycle of Destiny; for, as I said, she waited until the very month and the very day on which in bygone times the Temple had been burnt by the Babylonians.- War 250, 267-270
And as Andy Stanley said in a recent article:

View attachment 288959

You are fixated with AD70 and the coming of Titus. This is the center-point of everything you write here. The rest of us are fixated with Christ and His glorious future return in glory to glorify His redeemed elect. Christ is the focus of Scripture.

· What in the world has 'the heavens passing away with a great noise' to do with the old covenant passing away?
· What in the world has 'the elements melting with fervent heat' to do with the old covenant passing away?
· What in the world has 'the works on earth being burned up' to do with the old covenant passing away?
 
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mkgal1

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So if this is true, are pastors and teachers of the Word redundant?

As long as they are still necessary in the church, Hebrews 8:11 cannot be true now. It is really a simple point.
How does a person sitting in a pew or reading an article or watching a video know whether or not they're hearing Truth? There are many versions of God being presented. Certainly you don't just believe something simply because your pastor said it from the pulpit (or maybe you do)?

We still only "know God" through the Holy Spirit. This is True of His New Covenant people:

Hebrews 8:10-11
I will be their God,

and they will be My people.11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,

saying, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know Me
..........the beginning of this chapter opens with this (notice the grammatical tense):

Hebrews 8:1-2
1The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who ministers in the sanctuary and true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.
 
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Timtofly

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What happened to geopolitical Israel in 1948 isn't a fulfillment of prophecy. Is David or his promised descendant (Jesus) ruling them? God did not pour out his Spirit prior to setting up the state of Israel in 1948, a requirement to bring them into the promised land. God prophesied through Jeremiah that no one would prosper sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah (Jeremiah 22:30). So, if Christ were on earth, He could not occupy the throne of David in geopolitical Israel.
Rome was ruling when Jerusalem was destroyed. You can hardly claim what God is about to do. Nor does the 1st century cover all of the prophecy either. They fled Jerusalem. People have fled Jerusalem several time since then, and will continue to do so until the full prophecy is fulfilled. The 40 years between 30AD and 70AD does not fit into the prophecy. 40 years is no different than 1990 years in that regard.
 
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mkgal1

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Rome was ruling when Jerusalem was destroyed. You can hardly claim what God is about to do. Nor does the 1st century cover all of the prophecy either. They fled Jerusalem. People have fled Jerusalem several time since then, and will continue to do so until the full prophecy is fulfilled. The 40 years between 30AD and 70AD does not fit into the prophecy. 40 years is no different than 1990 years in that regard.
Jesus said:

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

.....
.and you can look back to read what He meant by "all these things".

Jesus also said this:

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”
When the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables,
they knew that Jesus was speaking about them.
 
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mkgal1

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mkgal1

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Nor does the 1st century cover all of the prophecy either.
I've never posted that the 1st century covered all prophecy.
The 40 years between 30AD and 70AD does not fit into the prophecy. 40 years is no different than 1990 years in that regard.
Some key things that Christ's first advent fulfilled:

"That the World May Know | Jewish Feasts" Jewish Feasts

The forty years from the Cross to the destruction of Jerusalem has been compared to the forty years it took for the journey of the Israelites from the time of their release from Egypt until the promised physical land. That was a type...and 30-70 AD is the reality in Christ.
 
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Douggg

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The forty years from the Cross to the destruction of Jerusalem has been compared to the forty years it took for the journey of the Israelites from the time of their release from Egypt until the promised physical land. That was a type...and 30-70 AD is the reality in Christ.
That is an inverse comparison, because the 40 years of wandering in the desert end with the children of Israel entering the promise land, ending the 40 years on a good note. Destruction of the temple and later the city plowed over in 135 AD is a bad note, with the Jews led into the nations out of the promised land.
 
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Douggg

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Does 1 John 2:27 apply to the present time?


Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson:


.
BaB2, I understand that there is a new rule at Christian Forums, that any video presented has to be accompanied by the poster with a brief synopsis of what is in the video. So please provide your synopsis of what the video is about and what is being proved by it in some detail about the video.
 
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mkgal1

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That is an inverse comparison, because the 40 years of wandering in the desert end with the children of Israel entering the promise land, ending the 40 years on a good note. Destruction of the temple and later the city plowed over in 135 AD is a bad note, with the Jews led into the nations out of the promised land.
Things aren't all bad....nor all good. IOW....there isn't new life without destruction of the old....and that's what 70 AD was (new life). That may have been "bad" for those who placed their hope in the Temple and the Old Covenant religious system....but it wasn't "bad" for the early Church.

The apostate religious leaders were in opposition to the ancient early church (remember that most of the apostles were martyred?). Once the judgement came upon the apostate religious leaders, the church was able to spread without as much opposition. That was the vindication of the saints that was promised.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Life did change for those in the first century - in a material way. And the elements (of the Old Covenant) did melt with fervent heat in the fire. Biblical Judaism life completely revolved around the Temple and that entire religious system. That isn't figurative at all, for that to literally disappear (as the author of Hebrews wrote would happen in their generation - Hebrews 8:13).


Quoting from linked page:
But for Josephus, the date of the fire was not due to Roman choice. He had been trying his hardest to obtain the peaceful surrender of the rebels and in this way preserve the Temple and the city. The long, long sermon he claims to have given before the walls is surely a fabrication.

It is easy to imagine that after the destruction he would have tormented himself: "Is there something I could have said that would have saved the Temple? If I had only found the right words..." The idealized speeches can be seen as an intellectual way to handle this guilt, as indeed, perhaps, is his entire writing of the War. In these speeches he finds solace by explicitly identifiying himself with Jeremiah, another prophet who failed to save his city. There was nothing, he realizes, that he or any human could have done:

The Deity, indeed long since, had sentenced the Temple to the flames; but now in the revolution of the years had arrived the fated day, the Tenth of the Month of Lous [Av]. [...] Deeply as one must mourn for the most marvellous edifice which we have ever seen or heard of, yet may we draw very great consolation from the thought that there is no escape from Fate, for works of art and places, any more than for living beings. And one may well marvel at the exactness of the cycle of Destiny; for, as I said, she waited until the very month and the very day on which in bygone times the Temple had been burnt by the Babylonians.- War 250, 267-270
And as Andy Stanley said in a recent article:

View attachment 288959


"Andy Stanley on Evangelicals After Trump - The Atlantic" The Evangelical Reckoning
Begins
Oh, is this a full preterist thing?

That tends to be in a blindspot for me because I cannot apply it, so it becomes invisible.

I think your vague replies are trying to correct a premise, so I'd guess your thesis is in the area regarding preterism.
 
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mkgal1

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That tends to be in a blindspot for me because I cannot apply it, so it becomes invisible.

I think your vague replies are trying to correct a premise, so I'd guess your thesis is in the area regarding preterism.
I didn't realize I was even being vague. Yes....I am of the belief that would be categorized as "partial preterist" but that applies to ALL Christians (because we all believe that Jesus fulfilled at least some of the Messianic prophecies). I'm getting surprised at just how few prophecies some people believe have been fulfilled....but believing the general Christmas story qualifies as partial preterism.

I'm not sure what you mean about "blind spots" and "I cannot apply it"? Do you mean you're resistant to apply preterist views to your beliefs?
 
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