Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

claninja · Nov 15, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I believe this is a better translation of that verse:

This verse is not saying the old covenant was becoming obsolete. It's saying it was made obsolete by the establishment of the new covenant. Do you not believe that the new covenant was established immediately upon Christ's death and resurrection?

All Hebrews 8:13 means is that the remnants of the old covenant were still visible because the temple was still standing and people were still foolishly performing animal sacrifices and such due to not accepting Christ's once for all sacrifice or due to not understanding the Christ had already made the old covenant obsolete. But, if you think the old covenant was still in effect at that point then I believe you are sadly mistaken.

absolutely agree the old covenant was made obsolete at Christ's 1st advent

Hebrews 10:8-10 In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are offered according to the law). 9Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

While the old covenant had been made obsolete, it was growing old and aging still in the first century.
Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made (perfect tense) the first one obsolete; and what is growing old (present tense) and aging (present tense) will soon disappear.

IMHO, this growing old and aging in the present tense refers to the practice of the old covenant by Jewish Christians and Jewish non christians. It's important to note the Counsel of Jerusalem only lightened the burdened of gentiles, when it came to the laws of Moses, not the Jews.

Acts 15:28-29 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Acts 21:20-24 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

Spiritual Jew said:
Look at what Paul told the Galatians here before 70 AD:

Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as "righteousness.”

These passages make it clear that Christ put an end to the old covenant with His death on the cross.

Yes, Paul would still have scolded the Galatians, even IF the old covenant was still in effect, because old covenant never saved. No one can rely on the works of the law for righteousness. No one can pursue righteous through works of the Law. That was never the point of the Law.

Romans 9:31-32 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Paul was scolding the Galatians because of their attempt to use the Law for righteousness, which, as we know, is folly.

Spiritual Jew said:
I believe this is a better translation of that verse:

2 Cor 3:11 (KJV) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Clearly, Christ's death and resurrection established the new covenant. I believe that is undeniable. So, if the new covenant was in effect and was meant to replace the old covenant then how could the old covenant have possibly still be in effect once the new covenant was put into effect? That does not make sense.

Fading away is present tense verb.
2 corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away (present tense) came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

It makes sense that it was fading away/aging/growing old in the first century when we read through the book of Acts and still see Jewish Christians and Jewish Non Christians still partaking in the temple ceremonies.

Spiritual Jew said:
As the passage in Galatians 3 shows, it was foolish for anyone to think that the old covenant works of the law were still required. Paul knew that, but he also knew that scolding those Jews the way he did the Galatians was not the right approach. In no way, shape or form can this passages from Acts 21 be used to show that the old covenant was still in effect after Christ's death on the cross. All Paul was doing there was to become "like a Jew to win the Jews" (1 Cor 9:20) to Christ.

1.) I stated Paul partook in the ceremonies as not to hurt the faith of the Jewish converts.

2.) I never said it was still in effect

3.) it makes sense that it was presently fading away/growing old/aging when we see Jewish Christians and Jewish non christians partaking in temple ceremonies in the first century as evidenced in the book of Acts.

Spiritual Jew said:
Are you talking about the souls of dead believers? Why would they not have started going to heaven until 70 AD instead of after Christ's death on the cross?

1.) the thief did not go to heaven to be with Jesus that very day, as Jesus didn't even ascend to heaven that day, therefore, IMHO, it should be rendered "i say to you today, you will be with me in paradise"

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.”

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

2.) The spirit returning to God is not something that began after the cross, for the author of Ecclesiastes declares that happened already prior to the cross.

Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Luke 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

3.) Dead believers slept/remained in the grave

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day

Acts 7:60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

1 corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

4.) I view the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel as also the time of his coming again to take the souls of the elect to heaven. IMHO, this is the transition of the dead elect to heaven.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Matthew 24:30-31 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

Spiritual Jew said:
Jesus has not yet been revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. I will never accept the interpretation that says 2 Thess 1:7-10 already happened.

Is Paul's thessalonians audience still waiting for relief?

Spiritual Jew said:
The first thing to notice here is that it speaks of Jesus being REVEALED from heaven with His angels. In what way was He revealed in 70 AD?

I view Jesus' revealing from heaven as the same in the passages as the same:

2 thessalonians 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I view the sign of the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem as the sign of Christ's coming in judgment upon Israel at the end of the age.

Mark 13:4 “1.) Tell us, when will these things happen? 2.) And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

Matthew 24:3 While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, 1.) “when will these things happen, 2.) and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Luke 21:7 “Teacher,” they asked, 1.) “when will these things happen? 2.) And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

Additionally, what's interesting, whether true or not, is that Tacitus and Josephus both report armies fighting in the sky and surrounding cities during the Jewish Roman war.

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you not believe we will see Him face to face one day? Do you not believe He will come visibly just as He left visibly (Acts 1:11)?

I believe Jesus entered heaven "hidden in a cloud", I believe that is how he came in judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad, which is consistent with the multiple times God came down from heaven to judge peoples and nations

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

1.) God coming down from heaven to defeat David's enemies
2 samuel 22:10-12 He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet. He rode on a cherub and flew; he was seen on the wings of the wind. He made darkness around him his canopy,
thick clouds, a gathering of water.

2.) God coming down from heaven to judge the Egyptians
Isaiah 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud
and comes to Egypt;and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence,
and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

3.) God coming down from heaven to judge Samaria
Micah 1:3-4 or behold, the Lord is coming out of his place,
and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.And the mountains will melt under him,
and the valleys will split open,
like wax before the fire,
like waters poured down a steep place.

Spiritual Jew said:
The ultimate vengeance for those Jewish persecutors will come on judgment day, so just because Christ didn't return back then to deliver physical punishment directly to those Jews, He will stay take vengeance on them on judgment day by casting them into the lake of fire.

The third thing to notice here is that on the day Jesus is revealed from heaven with His angels to take vengeance on unbelievers, it's the same day "He comes to be glorified in His holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed". How does what is described in verse 10 fit with your partial preterist doctrine?

Incorrect, the days of vengeance to fulfill all that is written came in 66-70ad upon Jerusalem's destruction, according to the very words of Jesus himself.

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

It is upon 1st century Jerusalem that all the righteous blood shed was found
Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Spiritual Jew said:
How does what is described in verse 10 fit with your partial preterist doctrine?

Depends how partial the partial preterist is.

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you not believe we will see Him face to face one day

Yes, I believe He IS coming on the clouds and every eye WILL see him.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wailb on account of him. Even so. Amen.

I believe every eye will see him, as all will stand before His Judgement seat

2 corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

claninja · Nov 15, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Obviously, the dead in Christ go to heaven and the lost go to hell. I can't believe you would ask me that question.

So then it appears you do, in fact, believe in a "separating" that occurs already, despite the parable of Jesus stating the separating doesn't occur till the end of the age, at the harvest.

Spiritual Jew said:
Yes, I understand that you view it that way, but I obviously disagree and I've explained why.

You disagree because you believe matthew 24 has more details, which includes matthew 25. However, you believe the coming of Jesus in matthew 25 is same as in Matthew 24, therefore your reason why the 2nd question is new information, doesn't make any sense.

This is no different than premils claiming the aod in mark and matthew is a different event than the armies surrounding jerusalem in luke.

Spiritual Jew said:
There is a sense that the last days refers to all of the days between Christ's first coming and second coming. That doesn't mean His second coming had to arrive in their lifetimes. Jesus said no one knew the day or hour, so how can you think that His coming had to occur at any certain time?

Well, Jesus said it would happen in their generation.

matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Spiritual Jew said:
Let's be clear that everything you're saying here is your opinion and not fact. Same for me. Don't lose sight of that. What was it that would be "at hand" when certain things happened? Remember, I see Jesus as speaking of 2 different events, not one. So, I'm not obligated to understand this the way you do. There were certain things that would happen that would show that the destruction of Jerusalem was at hand and they are also things that will happen in the future that will show that Christ's second coming is at hand.

God can, in fact tell us, when things are far
daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

And when things are near
Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Matthew has it "immediately after the tribulation"
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark has it, in the days after the tribulation:
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Luke has it around the times of gentiles being fulfilled, which according to revelation is 42 months.
Luke 21:24-27 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

So I associate the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, as a coming in judgment of Christ, which resulted in the gathering of the elect to heaven.

This does in no way, shape, or form, preclude a future judgment and resurrection of the dead, IMHO.

Spiritual Jew said:
Did the apostles generation experience the gathering of the elect from throughout the earth and throughout heaven (Mark 13:27)? No.

I would say yes.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the gathering of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Spiritual Jew said:
Did the apostles generation experience Jesus coming quickly like the lightning flashes from the east to the west? No.

I would say yes, the sign being the temple was destroyed

Spiritual Jew said:
Did the apostles generation experience the day of judgment when all people are gathered before Christ's throne with believers inheriting eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world while unbelievers were cast into "everlasting fire" for "eternal punishment"? No.

I would disagree/agree.

disagree, because it would be 4 kingdoms (babylon, persia, greece, rome), then the saints would possess the kingdom forever

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe,

Agree, because we have not stood in front of the judgment seat of Christ to receive our due, whether for good or bad, done in the body. I would argue this is still future.

2 corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Hebrews 927 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Spiritual Jew said:
Did the apostles generation experience heaven and earth passing away (Matt 24:35)? No.

It was passing away, in the first century

1 corinthians 7:29-31 What I am saying, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who weep, as if they did not; those who are joyful, as if they were not; those who make a purchase, as if they had nothing; and those who use the things of this world, as if not dependent on them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

I agree with Eusebius:

"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come : that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets" : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope. (Theophania)

Timtofly · Nov 15, 2020

claninja said:
So then it appears you do, in fact, believe in a "separating" that occurs already, despite the parable of Jesus stating the separating doesn't occur till the end of the age, at the harvest.

Cain and Abel were separated in the Garden. What is the point of this statement?

Jacob and Esau were separated. Ephraim and Manasseh were separated. Judah was separated from the other tribes. God has allowed many separations and each for a different purpose. You cannot apply separation as a one "size" fits all phenomenon.

Timtofly · Nov 15, 2020

claninja said:
I agree with Eusebius:

"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come : that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets" : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope. (Theophania)

Do you think many reading this when it was written got discouraged because nothing changed in their miserable existence? Was it misleading? Was Eusebius aware of China, the Aztec nation, or the whole of Africa, South America, and Australia? Or does none of this even matter?

The kingdom come, was that physical or spiritual? We know today the spiritual one is still in process, and the physical is still future. I do not deny that Jerusalem was destroyed along with the temple, but that was just outward physical reminders of what the Cross had already done. The house of Jacob was never restored, which was also prophesied. The whole earth was not over spread with the Gospel, just the Roman Empire and perhaps a majority of India. And the Gentiles are now trying to colonize the moon and Mars. The physical (the Gentiles) has not come into their Fullness. The 42 months is the last breath of the dying beast, known as the Nations. Only until that 42 months, if necessary, will the hidden plan of God be completed and the 7th Trumpet is sounded.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 15, 2020

claninja said:
So then it appears you do, in fact, believe in a "separating" that occurs already, despite the parable of Jesus stating the separating doesn't occur till the end of the age, at the harvest.

Jesus spoke of a separation that occurs at the end of the age and that has not yet occurred. In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus made it clear that this temporal age is the one in which people get married and they die. This age has clearly not ended yet. In contrast, in the eternal age to come people will not get married and will not die.

You disagree because you believe matthew 24 has more details, which includes matthew 25. However, you believe the coming of Jesus in matthew 25 is same as in Matthew 24, therefore your reason why the 2nd question is new information, doesn't make any sense.

This is no different than premils claiming the aod in mark and matthew is a different event than the armies surrounding jerusalem in luke.

No, it is not like that at all. That is a very offensive statement. Just because you don't yet even understand my view doesn't mean you should compare it to premil. That is nonsense.

Well, Jesus said it would happen in their generation.

Click to expand...

matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

I've already said that the Greek word "genea" can refer to a people group or even to people in general rather than a 30 or 40 year generation of people. He also said that heaven and earth would pass away when He comes (Matt 24:35) which lines up with what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Do you think heaven and earth have passed away yet?

God can, in fact tell us, when things are far
daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

And when things are near
Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Matthew has it "immediately after the tribulation"
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark has it, in the days after the tribulation:
Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Luke has it around the times of gentiles being fulfilled, which according to revelation is 42 months.
Luke 21:24-27 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

So I associate the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, as a coming in judgment of Christ, which resulted in the gathering of the elect to heaven.

This does in no way, shape, or form, preclude a future judgment and resurrection of the dead, IMHO.

Sure. That means more to me than you how you interpret the Olivet Discourse. And from your other post, it seems that you do believe Jesus will appear in the future and we will see Him face to face.

I would say yes.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the gathering of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

There will be a future gathering of God's people in our changed, immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:50-54). That has clearly not happened yet. The last trumpet has not yet sounded.

I would say yes, the sign being the temple was destroyed

I don't see how that qualifies as Jesus coming as quickly as the lightning in the east is viewable in the west, which implies that He will come as quickly as the speed of light. Once He comes, everything that is said to occur at that time will happen quickly, as evidenced by the fact that we will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye" when He returns (1 Cor 15:51-52).

I would disagree/agree.

disagree, because it would be 4 kingdoms (babylon, persia, greece, rome), then the saints would possess the kingdom forever

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’

Matthew 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,

Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe,

Agree, because we have not stood in front of the judgment seat of Christ to receive our due, whether for good or bad, done in the body. I would argue this is still future.

2 corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Hebrews 927 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

At least you do believe in a future judgment day, so I'm not going to argue with you about which verses speak of that and which don't.

It was passing away, in the first century

1 corinthians 7:29-31 What I am saying, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who weep, as if they did not; those who are joyful, as if they were not; those who make a purchase, as if they had nothing; and those who use the things of this world, as if not dependent on them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

But, it hasn't passed away yet. I believe He is saying that it would pass away when He comes, which is exactly what I believe Peter teaches in 2 Peter 3:3-13.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 15, 2020

claninja said:
1.) the thief did not go to heaven to be with Jesus that very day, as Jesus didn't even ascend to heaven that day, therefore, IMHO, it should be rendered "i say to you today, you will be with me in paradise"

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you today you will be with me in paradise.”

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

I completely disagree with you on this. Do you believe in soul sleep? Do you understand the difference between someone's spirit and soul going to heaven and them going there bodily?

Jesus said this right after telling the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day.

Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

The spirit of Jesus went to heaven when He died and so did the spirit of the the spirit of the thief on the cross. Paul taught that when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8).

2.) The spirit returning to God is not something that began after the cross, for the author of Ecclesiastes declares that happened already prior to the cross.

Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

Luke 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Okay, so it seems you do understand this. I'm pretty confused at this point, but I'll read on.

3.) Dead believers slept/remained in the grave

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day

Acts 7:60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

1 corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

So, you do believe in soul sleep. Oh boy. It is only their bodies that fell asleep. Read Luke 16:19-31 and Revelation 6:9-11 where it speaks of dead people being conscious. I completely disagree with the doctrine of soul sleep.

4.) I view the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel as also the time of his coming again to take the souls of the elect to heaven. IMHO, this is the transition of the dead elect to heaven.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Matthew 24:30-31 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 thessalonians 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

I simply completely disagree with this view and don't see any support for it.

Is Paul's thessalonians audience still waiting for relief?

They are still waiting for Christ to take vengeance on those who persecuted them. That certainly did not happen in 70 AD. Those of them who were killed would be among those souls in heaven who are waiting for Jesus to take vengeance on all of those who do not know God and have not obeyed the gospel of Christ, which includes the ones who persecuted them but also all unbelievers who have rejected Him.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

We're still waiting for Christ to take vengeance on all of His enemies. You apply passages that refer to His future global coming to a coming in Jerusalem instead and that is a mistake on your part. There is still a future global coming of Christ and that is most clearly seen in 2 Peter 3:3-13 but is taught in several other passages as well.

I believe Jesus entered heaven "hidden in a cloud", I believe that is how he came in judgment upon Israel in 66-70ad, which is consistent with the multiple times God came down from heaven to judge peoples and nations

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

But they clearly saw Him ascend toward heaven with their own eyes. We will literally see Him face to face when He returns as well and we will be in our immortal bodies with Him in His immortal body for eternity.

Incorrect, the days of vengeance to fulfill all that is written came in 66-70ad upon Jerusalem's destruction, according to the very words of Jesus himself.

Luke 21:20-22 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

It is upon 1st century Jerusalem that all the righteous blood shed was found
Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

That was only related to the punishment of Jerusalem for the blood shed up to that point. What about all the blood that has been shed since then? God doesn't need to take vengeance on anyone for that? Of course He does. History didn't end in 70 AD.

Yes, I believe He IS coming on the clouds and every eye WILL see him.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wailb on account of him. Even so. Amen.

I believe every eye will see him, as all will stand before His Judgement seat

2 corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Okay, good. From most of what you say, it isn't clear that you believe this, but since you said it then I will take your word for it.

Timtofly · Nov 15, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

The spirit of Jesus went to heaven when He died and so did the spirit of the the spirit of the thief on the cross. Paul taught that when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8).

The Holy Spirit left the physical body and went to Heaven. That does not mean the spirit of the thief did. The soul of the thief went to Paradise and entered a permanent body not made of flesh. Paul calls this an incorruptible body.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle be destroyed, we have a building given of God, that is, an house not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens."

This is a body. We get a new body, an incorruptible body when the soul leaves earth and enters Paradise.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 16, 2020

Timtofly said:
The Holy Spirit left the physical body and went to Heaven. That does not mean the spirit of the thief did. The soul of the thief went to Paradise and entered a permanent body not made of flesh. Paul calls this an incorruptible body.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle be destroyed, we have a building given of God, that is, an house not made with hands, but eternal in the heavens."

This is a body. We get a new body, an incorruptible body when the soul leaves earth and enters Paradise.

Where does scripture teach that? Please use scripture to back up your claims.

The following does not support your understanding:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul taught that those who are dead in Christ along with those who are alive when the last trumpet sounds in the future will be changed and then will have incorruptible bodies. Scripture does not teach that this happens before the last trumpet which will sound on the day Christ returns.

Timtofly · Nov 16, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Where does scripture teach that? Please use scripture to back up your claims.

The following does not support your understanding:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul taught that those who are dead in Christ along with those who are alive when the last trumpet sounds in the future will be changed and then will have incorruptible bodies. Scripture does not teach that this happens before the last trumpet which will sound on the day Christ returns.

Yes it does. 2 Corinthians 5.

"We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven.
2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours.
3 With this around us we will not be found naked.
4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life.
5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit."

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

Timtofly said:
Yes it does. 2 Corinthians 5.

"We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven.
2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours.
3 With this around us we will not be found naked.
4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life.
5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit."

This does not say that people have immortal bodies immediately after we die. It's talking about our souls departing earth and going home to be with the Lord in heaven when we die. Your interpretation contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. You can't interpret one passage in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

In 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Paul teaches that we will not be changed and have immortal bodies until the last trumpet sounds, which will happen when the dead in Christ are raised from the dead, which will happen when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:20-23).

claninja · Nov 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Jesus spoke of a separation that occurs at the end of the age and that has not yet occurred. In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus made it clear that this temporal age is the one in which people get married and they die. This age has clearly not ended yet. In contrast, in the eternal age to come people will not get married and will not die.

Right, but you just previously said the dead in Christ go to heaven and the lost to hell. A clear separation.

1.) Do you believe the dead in Christ partake in marriage when they go to heaven?

2.) Do you believe those in Christ die?

Spiritual Jew said:
No, it is not like that at all. That is a very offensive statement. Just because you don't yet even understand my view doesn't mean you should compare it to premil. That is nonsense.

1.) Premils require the armies in Luke to be a different event than the abomination of desolation in Mark and Matthew, in order to keep their doctrine afloat, as you agree.

2.) you require the 2nd question in matthew, as posed by the disciples, to be a different 2nd question than posed by the disciples in mark and luke, in order to keep your doctrine afloat.

It's just an observation that premils and amils do the same thing in order to float their doctrines. Not sure how this is offensive......

Spiritual Jew said:
I've already said that the Greek word "genea" can refer to a people group or even to people in general rather than a 30 or 40 year generation of people.

Any credible sources that agree with you on this position?

Spiritual Jew said:
Sure. That means more to me than you how you interpret the Olivet Discourse. And from your other post, it seems that you do believe Jesus will appear in the future and we will see Him face to face.

Of course

Spiritual Jew said:
At least you do believe in a future judgment day, so I'm not going to argue with you about which verses speak of that and which don't.

No problem.

Spiritual Jew said:
But, it hasn't passed away yet. I believe He is saying that it would pass away when He comes, which is exactly what I believe Peter teaches in 2 Peter 3:3-13.

Spiritual Jew said:
. He also said that heaven and earth would pass away when He comes (Matt 24:35) which lines up with what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Do you think heaven and earth have passed away yet?

I am of the position that the removal of the old covenant system in 66-70ad, was, in part, a removal of the heavens and earth.

Eusebius
"in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem--all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realized on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations"

Jonathan Edwards
"The Scriptures further teach us to call the gospel-restoration and redemption, a creation of a new heaven and a new earth… The gospel state is everywhere spoken of as a renewed state of things, wherein old things are passed away, and all things become new… And the dissolution of the Jewish state was often spoken of in the Old Testament as the end of the world. But we who belong to the gospel-church, belong to the new creation; and therefore there seems to be at least as much reason, that we should commemorate the work of this creation, as that the members of the ancient Jewish church should commemorate the work of the old creation."

Charles Spurgeon
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it."

claninja · Nov 17, 2020

duplicate

claninja · Nov 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I completely disagree with you on this. Do you believe in soul sleep? Do you understand the difference between someone's spirit and soul going to heaven and them going there bodily?

Soul sleep? No, where did you get that from?

According to the NT believers where "asleep" or "in the grave". Sleep is just a nice way of saying dead.

Spiritual Jew said:
Jesus said this right after telling the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day.

But Jesus didn't go to paradise that very day.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Spiritual Jew said:
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

The spirit of Jesus went to heaven when He died and so did the spirit of the the spirit of the thief on the cross.

The spirit going back to God after death, is not something new that happened after the cross. This already happened prior to the cross. So the cross, is not the transition period when the Spirits of dead men began returning to the Lord

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Spiritual Jew said:
Paul taught that when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8).

He was talking about the resurrection:

2 corinthians 5:4-5 while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.

Spiritual Jew said:
Okay, so it seems you do understand this. I'm pretty confused at this point, but I'll read on.

The spirit returning to God at death happened long prior to the cross, as evidenced in ecclesiastes.

Spiritual Jew said:
So, you do believe in soul sleep. Oh boy. It is only their bodies that fell asleep.

No, sleep is a common term in the NT to refer to the physically dead.

Spiritual Jew said:
Read Luke 16:19-31

Spiritual Jew said:
and Revelation 6:9-11 where

You are using parabolic and apocalyptic language to support your argument. As we will probably disagree on how to interpret these parabolic and apocalyptic passages, do you have any clear non parables or symbolic language, to support your position?

Spiritual Jew said:
I simply completely disagree with this view and don't see any support for it.

It is at Jesus' "coming again" that he would take us to be where he is also. But it seems you disagree, and believe that this occurs prior to the coming again, at the cross.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Spiritual Jew said:
But they clearly saw Him ascend toward heaven with their own eyes. We will literally see Him face to face when He returns as well and we will be in our immortal bodies with Him in His immortal body for eternity.

They did not. He was "hidden out of sight".

Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight

Spiritual Jew said:
That was only related to the punishment of Jerusalem for the blood shed up to that point. What about all the blood that has been shed since then? God doesn't need to take vengeance on anyone for that? Of course He does. History didn't end in 70 AD.

What makes anyone's blood righteous? IMHO, it is Jesus. Therefore those who murdered Jesus, are responsible for all the righteous blood shed. And vengeance, to fulfill ALL that was written, was taken out on them:

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Spiritual Jew said:
We're still waiting for Christ to take vengeance on all of His enemies. You apply passages that refer to His future global coming to a coming in Jerusalem instead and that is a mistake on your part. There is still a future global coming of Christ and that is most clearly seen in 2 Peter 3:3-13 but is taught in several other passages as well.

And I believe you are applying passages, which are about the destruction of jerusalem, incorrectly to the end of the physical world.

Spiritual Jew said:
They are still waiting for Christ to take vengeance on those who persecuted them. That certainly did not happen in 70 AD. Those of them who were killed would be among those souls in heaven who are waiting for Jesus to take vengeance on all of those who do not know God and have not obeyed the gospel of Christ, which includes the ones who persecuted them but also all unbelievers who have rejected Him.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

And according to Jesus, the vengeance was to occur in 66-70ad.

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Luke 11:50-51 As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary.h Yes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

claninja said:
Right, but you just previously said the dead in Christ go to heaven and the lost to hell. A clear separation.

So what? The resurrection of the dead hasn't happened yet. I'm talking about the separation that occurs at that point. That is when all will be gathered before the throne to give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12, Matthew 25:31-46).

1.) Do you believe the dead in Christ partake in marriage when they go to heaven?

No. We will all partake in the wedding at the same time when Christ returns.

2.) Do you believe those in Christ die?

Physically, yes. And that is the context of what Luke 20:34-36 is about. It is clearly referring to a man and woman getting married and to physical death. The proof of that is that Jesus indicated it is not until the time of the future resurrection of the dead that the things He mentioned would be true. When Christ returns and the dead are resurrected there will be no more death at that point. And there will be no more marriage between a man and a woman at that point, either, because we will be like the angels, who don't die and don't get married.

1.) Premils require the armies in Luke to be a different event than the abomination of desolation in Mark and Matthew, in order to keep their doctrine afloat, as you agree.

Some premils see that as a different event and some don't.

2.) you require the 2nd question in matthew, as posed by the disciples, to be a different 2nd question than posed by the disciples in mark and luke, in order to keep your doctrine afloat.

So what? It clearly is a different question. The end of the age has clearly not come yet since people are still getting married and are still dying. What can you do to keep your belief that the end of the age already occurred afloat? Nothing as far as I can tell.

It's just an observation that premils and amils do the same thing in order to float their doctrines. Not sure how this is offensive......

That isn't true. Premils are futurists so most of them don't acknowledge that Christ described 2 different events. They are normally more like you in assuming He was only talking about one event throughout the Olivet Discourse.

Any credible sources that agree with you on this position?

I didn't get this information from any particular source, so I don't know and don't care about that. I disagree strongly on a number of things with most of the people who would be considered supposed credible sources. The only truly credible sources are God and the authors of the Bible themselves who were inspired by God.

I certainly don't believe that Eusebius, Jonathan Edwards or Charles Spurgeon, which you quoted below, are credible sources. Far from it. Edwards and Spurgeon both taught Calvinist doctrine which I disagree with completely. So, they are not credible at all to me.

I am of the position that the removal of the old covenant system in 66-70ad, was, in part, a removal of the heavens and earth.

The old covenant system was removed by Christ with His death on the cross. The veil being torn in two signified the end of the old covenant system and the ushering in of the new covenant system by the blood of Christ.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

claninja said:
Soul sleep? No, where did you get that from?

According to the NT believers where "asleep" or "in the grave". Sleep is just a nice way of saying dead.

Do you believe the souls and spirits of believers go to heaven when they die or not?

But Jesus didn't go to paradise that very day.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

His spirit did because He committed His spirit to the Father. Do you somehow not understand that people are made up of body, soul and spirit? Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8). What do you think that means?

The spirit going back to God after death, is not something new that happened after the cross. This already happened prior to the cross. So the cross, is not the transition period when the Spirits of dead men began returning to the Lord

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

When did I say otherwise?

He was talking about the resurrection:

2 corinthians 5:4-5 while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.

That is our future hope, but after that he was talking about being away from the body meant to be present with the Lord in heaven. Do you understand that there is a part of us besides our bodies? The resurrection of the dead in Christ will not occur until the last trumpet when He returns (1 Cor 15:20-23,50-54).

You are using parabolic and apocalyptic language to support your argument. As we will probably disagree on how to interpret these parabolic and apocalyptic passages, do you have any clear non parables or symbolic language, to support your position?

This is ridiculous. You can't just brush these passages aside just because they are parabolic and apocalyptic. Why are those passages even there if we can't learn anything from them? The Luke 16:19-31 passage very clearly indicates that conscious torment occurs in hell. The fact that it's a parable doesn't change the fact of what it clearly portrays. Same thing with Revelation 6:9-11. It would be ludicrous to portray the dead in Christ as being conscious in heaven if they are not in fact conscious in heaven. Talk about trying to keep a doctrine afloat...

It is at Jesus' "coming again" that he would take us to be where he is also. But it seems you disagree, and believe that this occurs prior to the coming again, at the cross.

John 14:1-3 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus is in heaven now. He was talking about what the reality would be when He ascended to heaven. Our souls and spirits go to heaven when we die. So, this is clearly referring to that. Our eternal home with Jesus will be on the new earth, so He was not talking about that since His Father's house is currently in heaven and He was talking about where the Father's house was at the time.

They did not. He was "hidden out of sight".

Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight

Did you somehow miss the part that says "as they were looking on"? That means they could see Him up until the point where a cloud took Him out of their sight.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

They clearly were seeing Him as He was ascending up to the point the cloud took Him out of their sight. Why are you denying the obvious? Just to keep your doctrine afloat?

What makes anyone's blood righteous? IMHO, it is Jesus. Therefore those who murdered Jesus, are responsible for all the righteous blood shed. And vengeance, to fulfill ALL that was written, was taken out on them:

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

To fulfill all that was written in the OT regarding those days of vengeance, including Daniel 9:26. You do understand that the NT was not written yet at that point, right?

And I believe you are applying passages, which are about the destruction of jerusalem, incorrectly to the end of the physical world.

So be it.

And according to Jesus, the vengeance was to occur in 66-70ad.

Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Luke 11:50-51 As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary.h Yes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation.

Do you not think that Jesus will be taking vengeance on His enemies when He returns in the future? How do you interpret 2 Peter 3:3-13?

Timtofly · Nov 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
This does not say that people have immortal bodies immediately after we die. It's talking about our souls departing earth and going home to be with the Lord in heaven when we die. Your interpretation contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. You can't interpret one passage in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

In 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Paul teaches that we will not be changed and have immortal bodies until the last trumpet sounds, which will happen when the dead in Christ are raised from the dead, which will happen when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:20-23).

I never said immortal bodies. I said incorruptible bodies. I do not contradict any Scripture.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

Timtofly said:
I never said immortal bodies. I said incorruptible bodies. I do not contradict any Scripture.

What is the difference? Incorruptible bodies are immortal bodies. Incorruptible bodies can't die and immortal bodies can't die.

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Definitions of incorruptible and immortal:

incorruptible /ˌinkəˈrəptəb(ə)l/
adjective

not susceptible to corruption, especially by bribery.
not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

immortal /i(m)ˈmôrdl/
adjective

living forever; never dying or decaying.

grafted branch · Nov 17, 2020

claninja said:
This is no different than premils claiming the aod in mark and matthew is a different event than the armies surrounding jerusalem in luke.

So I believe that Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and the abomination of desolation are different events.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 both record the statement except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. The days being shortened is not recorded in Luke 21 and neither is the term “abomination of desolation”. I think the days were shortened which resulted in the sign to flee no long being the abomination of desolation but Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

I think the abomination of desolation was the first sacrifice made after the veil was torn. If they would have fled when they saw this then the Pentecost event wouldn’t have happened; so no flesh would have been saved.

In Isaiah 53:10, which is speaking of Christ, it states “when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days”. I think the days being prolonged have been incorporated into the Luke rendering but not into Matthew or Mark. The days that were shortened would then be the days of vengeance.

I’m not looking to debate this; I’m just wondering what problems you might see with this interpretation. Thanks.

ewq1938 · Nov 17, 2020

grafted branch said:
So I believe that Jerusalem being surrounded by armies and the abomination of desolation are different events.

Looks to be the same timeframe to me:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The Coming of the Son of Man
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke:
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains

Matthew:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.

There's lots of similar, matching language but these two set the stage for the rest which ends with the second coming in both passages.

Surrounded by armies and the abomination of desolation are speaking of the same exact timeframe. Naturally the AoD being a leader of a global empire will have an army that will be with him when he rules from Jerusalem.

Clertole · Nov 17, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The first thing we should take note of is that the New Testament was first written in ancient Greek; and in the Greek, χιλιάς chiliás = a thousand (one thousand); and every time the word "thousand" appears in Revelation chapter 20, it's a translation of the Greek word χιλιάς [ chiliás ].

A thousand (one-thousand): χιλιάς chiliás.

Two-thousands: δισχίλιοι dischílioi (example Mark 5:13).

Three-thousands: τρισχίλιοι trischílioi (example Acts 2:41).

Four-thousands: τετρακισχίλιοι tetrakischílioi (example Matthew 15:38).

Seven-thousands: ἑπτακισχίλιοι heptakischílioi (example Romans 11:4).

Five-thousands: πεντακισχίλιοι pentakischílioi (example Matthew 14:21).

Five thousand: (five times a thousand) Five (πέντε pénte) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = pénte chiliás, five thousand (example Acts 4:4).

Ten thousand: (ten times a thousand) Ten (δέκα déka) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = déka chiliás, ten thousand (example Luke 14:31).

Ten-thousands: μύριοι mýrioi (example 1 Corinthians 4:15).

Twelve thousand: (twelve times a thousand) Twelve (δώδεκα dṓdeka) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = dṓdeka chiliás, twelve thousand (example Revelation 7:5).

Twenty thousand: Twenty (εἴκοσι eíkosi) times a thousand ((χιλιάς chiliás, one thousand) = eíkosi chiliás, twenty thousand (example Luke 14:31).

Fifty thousand: Five (πέντε pénte) times ten-thousands (μυριάς myriás) = pénte myriás, fifty ten-thousands (example Acts 19:19).

Thousands: μυριάς myriás (example Acts 21:20). It's also used for ten-thousands, and for an innumerable number, for example:

Revelation 5:11
"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten-thousands (μυριάς myriás) times ten-thousands (μυριάς myriás), and a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás) times a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás)".

Every time the word "thousand" appears in Revelation chapter 20, it's a translation of the Greek word χιλιάς [ chiliás ] - one thousand only.

-----------------------------------

The second thing we should take note of, is that Revelation chapter 20 verses 1-3 clearly speaks of Satan being bound and locked up in the bottomless pit:

"And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand (χιλιάς chiliás) years. And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time."

Yet in his letter to the Christians in Corinth, Paul states, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

So is Satan bound (or partially bound, or restricted) right now, and has he been over these last 2,000 years?

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In order to answer this question, the third thing we should take note of, is that Revelation chapter 12 speaks of Satan's ability to accuse the brethren before God having been completely destroyed; and we know this is by the cross of Christ because we are told that "they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death." (Revelation 12:11).

Therefore Satan, the accuser, had no legal right to appear in the court room anymore.

Immediately after this we are told that the devil has been cast out of heaven, and has come down to the earth and the sea "having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time." (Revelation 12:12). We are then told about Satan going to war against "the woman" who had given birth to the Messiah, and then against "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:13-17), which of course, refers to Satan's war against the churches of Christ.

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The fourth thing we should take note of, is that both Jesus and His apostles taught, by implication of the things they said to the churches, that Satan is very active in the world:-

In Revelation 2:12 Jesus tells the church at Pergamos, "I know your works, and where you live, even where Satan's seat is. And you hold fast My name and have not denied My faith, even in those days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells."

In Revelation 2:9-10 Jesus tells the church in Smyrna, "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.".

In his letter to the Christians in Corinth, Paul states, "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

In Ephesians 6:11-12 Paul tells the Christians in Ephesus to "put on the whole armour of God, for your being able to stand against the wiles of the devil", and then continues to say, "because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places".

In Acts 26:17-18, we read of Jesus telling Paul that He was sending Paul to the Gentiles ""To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

In Acts 5:3 we read that Peter said to a man named Ananias, "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"

In Romans 16:20, Paul tells the church in Rome that "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly."

In 1 Corinthians 5:5 Paul tells the church in Corinth to deliver the person who had sinned grievously unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

In 1 Corinthians 7:5 Paul says to the married couples in the same church, "Do not deprive one another, unless it is with consent for a time, so that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer. And come together again so that Satan does not tempt you for your incontinence."

In 2 Corinthians 2:11 Paul tells the same church to forgive the person who sinned "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

In 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 Paul refers to teachers of false doctrines who sought to beguile Christians as "false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ", and then goes on to say, "Did not even Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light? Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:14-15).

So Paul was calling the teachers of false doctrine "ministers (servants) of Satan".

In 1 Thessalonians 2:18 Paul tells the Christians in Thessaloniki that he had and those who accompanied him on his journeys tried to come to them, "but Satan hindered us."

In 1 Timothy 5:15 Paul says that some Christians "have already turned aside after Satan."

In 1 Timothy 3:6-7 Paul says that anyone desiring the office of a Bishop should "not a novice, lest being puffed up he may fall into the condemnation of the Devil; and it behoveth him also to have a good testimony from those without, that he may not fall into reproach and a snare of the devil."

James tells Christians, "Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7).

Peter tells Christians to "Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour; whom firmly resist in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions in the world are being completed in your brotherhood." (1 Peter 5:8-9).

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Over and over again, the activities of Satan in the world, whom Paul calls "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not," is referred to in the New Testament, and Christians are warned and exhorted to be aware of this, and of the wiles of Satan, and to resist him.

In stark contrast to this, not once - not ever - does the New Testament outside of Revelation chapter 20 speak of Satan being bound, nor "partially bound" by having his activities in the earth restricted (any more than his activities in the world have always been restricted to an extent by God, from the time of the fall of Adam onward, throughout the Bible, where many times we read of cases where the activities of Satan in the world were restricted).

Therefore in my opinion, the only Biblical conclusion we can come to regarding the one thousand year period written about in Revelation chapter 20, is that this period has not yet come.

In my opinion, this should not be surprising to any Christian who reads the book of Revelation and learns from the Revelation that at the time the Revelation was penned, "the beast" (which the Revelation states will ascend from the abyss and be defeated by Christ at the time of His return, and then be destroyed by Christ in "the lake of fire burning with brimstone") "was" (existed at one time), "is not" (does not exist anymore), "and will ascend out of the abyss, and go to perdition".

The Revelation teaches that Satan will likewise be destroyed in the lake of fire after a thousand years - where the beast and and its false prophet (already) are.

In my opinion any eschatology ("end-times theology) presented by any church which teaches that Satan is (already) currently bound in some manner, is therefore patently false, and is probably based on a theological castle of sand built on the sea's side of the high tide mark.

I like this, love to ready articles like this

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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