Titus 2:11 demonstrates free will for "everyone".

FreeGrace2 · Nov 17, 2020

nolidad said:
Absolutely!

But just remember Creation does not reveal the gospel message nor tell anyone who Jesus is!

Yes, that was found in my sentence about Cornelius the Centurion.
"Anyone who realizes from creation that there is a Creator, and wants to know Him, like Cornelius the Centurion, will be given more information."

I went to China several times. but my first time I am connvinced was simply to share the gospel with a young girl who was our tour guide who afterwards got saved and became an amazing disciple. God will send people to those who He knows belong to him.

That is a Calvinist explanation. I believe God sends more information to those who are seeking Him. iow, He provides answers to those who seek Him.

Remember we are sent out to bring in the wheat- not turn the tares to wheat.

We are to go out and bring back the lost sheep, not turn goats to sheep.

Right.

nolidad · Nov 17, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Calvinists make the mistake of equating spiritual death with physical death. Spiritual death is separation from God. It doesn't mean they can't hear, respond and believe.

Well this 5 pointer biblicist doesn't! Physical death is physical death. Spiritual death is spiritual death.

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

These people were dead and separated from god. Physical death just seals the spiritual death people live in !

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible never says that an unsaved man cannot believe the gospel when he hears it.

Rom 10:9-13 says that one must hear before they believe.

I never said that! I justr said that an unsaved man in and of theior own nature can believe the gospel. They are spiritually dead! and have no capacity for the things of God as the verses I quoted prove.

FreeGrace2 said:
If you believe that regeneration is required in order for a person to believe the gospel, where is that found/taught in the Bible?

Well that is a topic that many who believe in the doctrine of biblical predestination and election are debating. Exactly when does one get regenerated?

As for me, I just know that unless god changes the heart of an individual, they can never accept teh gospel, the natural man just doesn't want to!

FreeGrace2 said:
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

There's all the free will you're not looking for.

I only quoted part of teh verse for space sake.

So show me where in that verse it says that a man of his own nature can choose God. Inlight of I will give just one verse:

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
King James Version

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The human nature CANNOT receive the things of God- to us in our natural state they are foolish!

And we in our unsaved state are enslaved to sin and even our good works are sin for they are not of faith! (Romans and James)

Romans 9:14-16
King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It is not of our free will, but of God who shows mercy to whom He will show mercy on.

To take your argument to an extreme example. God wills that a person is to be saved so that He can use them for His purposes. But free will says no for that person. So Gods will is thwarted.

You are implying that mans free will is sovereign over Gods divine will.

nolidad · Nov 17, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
That is a Calvinist explanation. I believe God sends more information to those who are seeking Him. iow, He provides answers to those who seek Him.

Yep like burdening someone to go to China and share the gospel with them!

See I believe in the sovereignty of God not the sovereignty of mans will!

Your view is this:

you share the gospel with two people at teh same time, one gets saved one doesn't. Why? You say free will, I say they were the elect from the foundation of the world as Scripture declares.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

nolidad said:
So then show a passage where it says an unsaved person who cannot perceive the things of god has no capaicty to receive the things of God can decide with their nature which is opposed to God to receive Christ as Savior.

If a believer living in their old nature unable to please God, how can an unbeliever living in their own nature do something pleasing to God when a believer cannot?

Jesus called unbelieving sinners to repent, not believers.

Luke 5:29 Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. 30 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Jesus believed that people who were sinners, unbelievers living in their own nature, were capable of responding to His call for them to repent. So, why don't you believe that?

If their repentance was entirely up to God then why was Jesus saddened and angry at the ones who did not repent (please read Matthew 23 and the following passage)?

Luke 19:41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

nolidad said:
So show me where in that verse it says that a man of his own nature can choose God. Inlight of I will give just one verse:

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
King James Version

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The human nature CANNOT receive the things of God- to us in our natural state they are foolish!

And we in our unsaved state are enslaved to sin and even our good works are sin for they are not of faith! (Romans and James)

This is speaking specifically about the deeper things of God, the meat of His word, rather than just the milk. He was not referring to someone's ability to understand and respond to the gospel there.

You conveniently left this part out which shows the context of what Paul was writing about there:

1 Cor 2:9 (KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

The deep things of God would be equivalent to the meat that Paul told the immature "babes in Christ" that they were not yet understanding. They are the things that we learn as we mature in the faith.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Romans 9:14-16
King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It is not of our free will, but of God who shows mercy to whom He will show mercy on.

To take your argument to an extreme example. God wills that a person is to be saved so that He can use them for His purposes. But free will says no for that person. So Gods will is thwarted.

You are implying that mans free will is sovereign over Gods divine will.

Once again, you are drawing conclusions from a passage without taking other scripture into account. Yes, God can have mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy on. No one disagrees with this. But, who does He want to have mercy on? Just some people as Calvinists believe? Or all people, as scripture teaches?

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

God has given over all people to unbelief and all people are sinners (Romans 3:23). Why? So "that He might have mercy upon all". He wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2) and He wants to have mercy on all people (Rom 11:32).

com7fy8 · Nov 17, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, God's grace AND God's salvation is for everyone. That's the obvious meaning of Titus 2:11. So then, why is God's grace/salvaton for everyone IF IF IF Christ didn't die for everyone, or God unilaterally (unconditionally) chose only some for salvation, as Calvinism believes?

By the way, I do not claim to know what John Calvin really believed, and I do not know any Calvinists who have made themselves clear to me about what they really believe.

My considerations are based on things I have read in the Bible, plus things I would say I have observed about people . . . things I think the Bible points out.

About if Jesus' sacrifice is for all . . . yes. 1 John 2:2.

But the good of this is different, depending on how each person is > my interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:10.

FreeGrace2 said:
Paul was referring to the Holy Spirit, who only works when the believed is filled with the Spirit. He isn't working when He is being grieved (Eph 4:30) or quenched (1 Thess 5:19).

But Jesus does say the Holy Spirit will convict people of righteousness and sin and judgment. I understand this effects unbelievers, not only believers. And then how each one responds is going to be different.

And you might already know how Hebrews talks about if a fallen person can be renewed to repentance. Renewing would be by the Holy Spirit, I would say. Hebrews 6:6.

And it says the LORD opened the heart of Lydia "to heed the things spoken by Paul" > Acts 16:14. And "the Lord is the Spirit," Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:17.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

com7fy8 said:
By the way, I do not claim to know what John Calvin really believed, and I do not know any Calvinists who have made themselves clear to me about what they really believe.

My considerations are based on things I have read in the Bible, plus things I would say I have observed about people . . . things I think the Bible points out.

About if Jesus' sacrifice is for all . . . yes. 1 John 2:2.

But the good of this is different, depending on how each person is > my interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:10.

Can you tell me how you interpret 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:10?

com7fy8 · Nov 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Can you tell me how you interpret 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:10?

First, how I approach interpretation > I try not to interpret only in the context of the predestination versus free will controversy or the universalism debate. I hope to do better than to use a verse only or mainly to argue some doctrinal position, but I do not totally leave out using scripture to support a view I accept.

But, most of all, I need to get a love application, in any case, for how God's word means for me to love.

1 John 2:2 >

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

First . . . the practical love application > Jesus gave Himself for any and all people. So, Jesus has hope for any evil person, at all; therefore, in prayer I need to have hope for any person, at all > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

Also, Jesus left Heaven itself in order to come to us humans here and so suffer and die for us. This shows how Jesus is not at all conceited. So, Jesus does not want me to self-righteously look down on anyone, as though someone is not worth loving and caring about that person.

This, I would say, needs our attention first.

This example of Jesus is required of us now, by the way, much more than however we may believe a correct doctrine which even immature and un-Christian people can argue and believe.

I offer I know how ones can get . . . interpret . . . that this verse means Jesus Christ's sacrifice is offered to any and all people, and each one is free to choose, in one's own free will. Indeed, Jesus is not forcing and threatening anyone to choose Him, but He so suffered and died sweetly in order to please our Father to reconcile with us > Ephesians 5:2, 1 Peter 2:23 < Jesus "did not threaten".

And I see how ones can take this to mean that only Jesus can be pleasing enough to satisfy our Father to forgive us. And our own ability to choose was not enough, while we were in sin; because we were not capable of loving God while our hearts were hard and "deceitful above all things" and "desperately wicked" as Jeremiah says > Jeremiah 17:9.

By the way . . . if Jesus is indeed satisfying God to be willing to forgive any and all sins ever committed . . . Jesus must be very satisfying to God, indeed

And none of us could ever be pleasing enough to make up with God, for ourselves, in any case, I would say.

So, our issue in this thread, I think, is simply if any human at least is able to make one's own choice to depend on Jesus to satisfy God to forgive us.

In any case, we in Jesus needed to trust Christ to make our way for us > to trust in Christ, and not depend on ourselves. Ephesians 1:12 says "we who first trusted in Christ".

So . . . if you got this far > how to you interpret 1 John 2:2?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

com7fy8 said:
First, how I approach interpretation > I try not to interpret only in the context of the predestination versus free will controversy or the universalism debate. I hope to do better than to use a verse only or mainly to argue some doctrinal position, but I do not totally leave out using scripture to support a view I accept.

But, most of all, I need to get a love application, in any case, for how God's word means for me to love.

1 John 2:2 >

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

First . . . the practical love application > Jesus gave Himself for any and all people. So, Jesus has hope for any evil person, at all; therefore, in prayer I need to have hope for any person, at all > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

Also, Jesus left Heaven itself in order to come to us humans here and so suffer and die for us. This shows how Jesus is not at all conceited. So, Jesus does not want me to self-righteously look down on anyone, as though someone is not worth loving and caring about that person.

This, I would say, needs our attention first.

This example of Jesus is required of us now, by the way, much more than however we may believe a correct doctrine which even immature and un-Christian people can argue and believe.

I offer I know how ones can get . . . interpret . . . that this verse means Jesus Christ's sacrifice is offered to any and all people, and each one is free to choose, in one's own free will. Indeed, Jesus is not forcing and threatening anyone to choose Him, but He so suffered and died sweetly in order to please our Father to reconcile with us > Ephesians 5:2, 1 Peter 2:23 < Jesus "did not threaten".

And I see how ones can take this to mean that only Jesus can be pleasing enough to satisfy our Father to forgive us. And our own ability to choose was not enough, while we were in sin; because we were not capable of loving God while our hearts were hard and "deceitful above all things" and "desperately wicked" as Jeremiah says > Jeremiah 17:9.

By the way . . . if Jesus is indeed satisfying God to be willing to forgive any and all sins ever committed . . . Jesus must be very satisfying to God, indeed

And none of us could ever be pleasing enough to make up with God, for ourselves, in any case, I would say.

So, our issue in this thread, I think, is simply if any human at least is able to make one's own choice to depend on Jesus to satisfy God to forgive us.

In any case, we in Jesus needed to trust Christ to make our way for us > to trust in Christ, and not depend on ourselves. Ephesians 1:12 says "we who first trusted in Christ".

So . . . if you got this far > how to you interpret 1 John 2:2?

I did get this far, but I'm still not entirely certain of how you interpret 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:10. Do you believe that God offers salvation to all people and that all people have the ability to accept it or reject it? Yes or no, please.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

For me, this is simple. I interpret "the whole world" in this verse as just that. The whole world. All people in the world. So, Jesus died as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

John said that "God is love" (1 John 4:8). He's not partially love and partially hate. He is love. So, I interpret John 3:16 to be saying that God loved the whole world (all people in the world) so much that He gave His only Son to die for their sins so that they could have eternal life by believing in Him.

Obviously, not everyone is saved, so this means that Jesus provided the way for all people to be saved though His sacrifice, but people must use their God given free will to choose to either believe in Him or reject Him. Everyone is responsible to make this choice.

If no free will choice is involved then how could it be true that God is love? If it was entirely up to Him and He only chose relatively few to be saved with the rest condemned to eternal torment then how could God be love as John said He is?

com7fy8 · Nov 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
I did get this far, but I'm still not entirely certain of how you interpret 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:10. Do you believe that God offers salvation to all people and that all people have the ability to accept it or reject it? Yes or no, please.

I think your wording is too simple and limiting.

Jesus did die for all. yes

Is this salvation being personally offered to every human? I don't think it is. Because there are ones who have never heard the Gospel.

Do humans have the ability to accept salvation? Yes, if God gives them the ability.

Do they have the ability to reject salvation? Yes, if Satan's spirit gives them the ability. There are ones who have the ability to reject it, because Satan's spirit in them "works" (Ephesians 2:2) in them to have them reject God's word.

com7fy8 · Nov 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
If no free will choice is involved then how could it be true that God is love? If it was entirely up to Him and He only chose relatively few to be saved with the rest condemned to eternal torment then how could God be love as John said He is?

I offer that this concern has been clear to me . . . for a while. And I have already given what I have learned about this.

Yes, we have free wills. But are humans' free wills capable of choosing what is right . . . while they are with Satan in his kingdom?? Jeremiah 17:9 It says his evil spirit "works" (Ephesians 2:2) in disobedient people. To me, this means Satan is working against how people are. He is not honoring them to have free choice. They are in slavery. I think all of us have experienced how Satanic anger and lusts are dictatorial and not welcoming us to choose if we go along with them. And we were born in this, did not have a choice.

And God "works" > work is against resistance, I understand > Philippians 2:13.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 17, 2020

nolidad said:
Well this 5 pointer biblicist doesn't! Physical death is physical death. Spiritual death is spiritual death.

Saying this doesn't actually prove anything. It all depends on what you think spiritual death is.

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

These people were dead and separated from god. Physical death just seals the spiritual death people live in !

Yes. Spiritual death is separation from God, as physical death is the soul separated from the body.

I justr said that an unsaved man in and of theior own nature can believe the gospel. They are spiritually dead!

Did you mean "can't"? I believe any unsaved person CAN believe the gospel. That's what Titus 2:11 is about. God's saving grace brings salvation to everyone.

and have no capacity for the things of God as the verses I quoted prove.

1 Cor 2 doesn't say the unsaved "have no capacity for the things of God". It says that unsaved man cannot comprehend the DEEP THINGS of God. This refers to advanced doctrines.

There are many many examples of unbelievers who can accurately explain the gospel message, all the while not believing it.

Well that is a topic that many who believe in the doctrine of biblical predestination and election are debating. Exactly when does one get regenerated?

Debate resoved in Eph 2.
v.5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Red words refer to regeneration.
Blue words explain the red words. They are equated in this verse. iow, you can't have one without the other.

Now, v.8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The red words refers to the means of salvation; faith. And since salvation and regeneration are equated, v.8 proves that faith precedes regeneration.

As for me, I just know that unless god changes the heart of an individual, they can never accept teh gospel, the natural man just doesn't want to!

But there aren't any verses in the Bible that teach this.

In fact 2 Cor 3 says-
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Red words refer to man's response to the gospel. Blue words refer to God's action.

So show me where in that verse it says that a man of his own nature can choose God.

Titus 2:11 is the evidence. Salvation is offered to everyone. So it should be obvious that unsaved man CAN respond to the gospel.

Calvinist bias runs quite deep. It's real hard to see the obvious when under such bias.

Inlight of I will give just one verse:

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
King James Version

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The human nature CANNOT receive the things of God- to us in our natural state they are foolish!

You said "just one verse". But you cited 3 and gave 2. Interesting math.

The verses do NOT say that human nature can't receive the things of God.

Let's start with:
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

So, Paul's focus is on advanced doctrines, which is for the spiritually mature believer.

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

Paul goes on to further explain what the "message of wisdom" is; the "deep things" of God. Again, this is a reference to advanced doctrines, which EVEN immature, baby believers cannot yet comprehend.

Heb 5:12-14
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Now, back to 1 Cor 2-
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Now, combine this verse with John 16:
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 about sin, because people do not believe in me;
10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

This is the Holy Spirit's ministry among unbelievers; to convict them of their sin.

So, yes, they CAN believe the gospel. In fact, unbelievers become believers all the time.

What you don't have in your corner is any Scripture that says what Calvinism claims.

Romans 9:14-16
King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

OK, let's examine WHO God will "have mercy" on.

Isa 55-
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

v.6 is an appeal to seek the Lord. It makes no sense to command what cannot be done.
v.7 shows what God does WHEN the wicked "forsake their ways". He has mercy on them.

To take your argument to an extreme example. God wills that a person is to be saved so that He can use them for His purposes. But free will says no for that person. So Gods will is thwarted.

Your example is certainly "extreme". You cannot cite any verse that says that God will anyone to be saved. Or elected to be saved. Or predestined to be saved. All of this is Calvinist doctrine, and none of it is in the Bible.

So your extreme example fails. In fact, this is God's will:
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

This is God's will.

You are implying that mans free will is sovereign over Gods divine will.

Not even close to that. I totally reject your erroneous conclusion.

God's plan for the salvation of human beings is that those who believe in His Son will be saved. It's that simple. And straightforward.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know
him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

If this verse doesn't support what I just said, please explain clearly why not. Thanks.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 17, 2020

I said:
"I believe God sends more information to those who are seeking Him. iow, He provides answers to those who seek Him."

nolidad said:
Yep like burdening someone to go to China and share the gospel with them!

Exactly!

See I believe in the sovereignty of God not the sovereignty of mans will!

Please, explain why you think (erroneously) that I "believe in the sovereignty of man's will". Of course God is sovereign. But it is erroneous to think (presume) that God chooses who will believe.

Your view is this:

you share the gospel with two people at teh same time, one gets saved one doesn't. Why? You say free will, I say they were the elect from the foundation of the world as Scripture declares.

Free will doesn't believe. Free will is simply the opportunity to make a choice.

btw, Eph 1:4 doesn't say anything about salvation. It's pure presumption to think that it is. The "us" who are chosen in v.4 are believers. v.19 defines the "us" as "us who believe". So that alone deflates the Calvinist understanding of Eph 1:4.

And what believers are chosen/elected FOR is spelled out in the verse: to be holy and blameless. This isn't salvation. It's about service.

Paul re-emphasized this later in the epistle:
5-
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 17, 2020

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Yes, God's grace AND God's salvation is for everyone. That's the obvious meaning of Titus 2:11. So then, why is God's grace/salvaton for everyone IF IF IF Christ didn't die for everyone, or God unilaterally (unconditionally) chose only some for salvation, as Calvinism believes?

com7fy8 said:
By the way, I do not claim to know what John Calvin really believed, and I do not know any Calvinists who have made themselves clear to me about what they really believe.

I wasn't referring to John Calvin but rather "Calvinism", which is a theological position.

And TULIP says that salvation is unconditionally chosen. But the Bible teaches that salvation is by faith, which IS IS IS a condition.

[QUOT]My considerations are based on things I have read in the Bible, plus things I would say I have observed about people . . . things I think the Bible points out.[/QUOTE]
How do you know what you've observed isn't a reflection of Calvinism?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I offer that this concern has been clear to me . . . for a while. And I have already given what I have learned about this.

Yes, we have free wills. But are humans' free wills capable of choosing what is right . . . while they are with Satan in his kingdom?? Jeremiah 17:9 It says his evil spirit "works" (Ephesians 2:2) in disobedient people. To me, this means Satan is working against how people are. He is not honoring them to have free choice. They are in slavery. I think all of us have experienced how Satanic anger and lusts are dictatorial and not welcoming us to choose if we go along with them. And we were born in this, did not have a choice.

And God "works" > work is against resistance, I understand > Philippians 2:13.

Please read post #264 in this thread where I addressed this issue and let me know your thoughts on that.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 17, 2020

com7fy8 said:
I think your wording is too simple and limiting.

Jesus did die for all. yes

Is this salvation being personally offered to every human? I don't think it is. Because there are ones who have never heard the Gospel.

But in terms of those who have heard or read the gospel, do you believe salvation is offered to them? It wouldn't make sense to say that Jesus died for their sins while at the same time saying that salvation is not offered to them, right?

In terms of everyone else who hasn't heard or read the gospel, I believe they will be judged based on what they do know as Paul described in Romans 1:18-32. Every person knows God because of what He has made. No one has any excuse for not believing in God, glorifying Him as God and being thankful to Him. Would you agree?

Do humans have the ability to accept salvation? Yes, if God gives them the ability.

Is there any reason to think anyone does not have that ability in light of the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and in light of the fact that God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9), wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:32) wants all people to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6)?

Do they have the ability to reject salvation? Yes, if Satan's spirit gives them the ability. There are ones who have the ability to reject it, because Satan's spirit in them "works" (Ephesians 2:2) in them to have them reject God's word.

Satan can't do anything without people's cooperation. He can't force anyone to reject salvation just as God does not force anyone to accept it.

com7fy8 · Nov 17, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
the Bible teaches that salvation is by faith, which IS IS IS a condition.

Well, God is a condition for being saved, right?

I have understood that faith is a gift of God, and not all have this gift. So, yes it is a condition, but it is a condition provided by God.

And our Apostle Paul says we need "faith working through love", in Galatians 5:6.

So, I see that saving faith works in God's love, not in a human will separate from God. And saving faith is not only intellectual believing, then, or even just trusting Jesus at some distance, but there is spiritual connection and sharing with God involved >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

From this, I see there is actual union with God, so that this works in God's love. And worldly humans are not like God in His love. So, their human sort of loving is not what God wants, in our choosing.

com7fy8 · Nov 17, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
How do you know what you've observed isn't a reflection of Calvinism?

I said:
By the way, I do not claim to know what John Calvin really believed, and I do not know any Calvinists who have made themselves clear to me about what they really believe.

So, I do not know.

But I have an impression, from things I have read on the Net, of what Calvinists believe. But I know I do not necessarily know. And even an official site might have more recent variations put in by the present powers that be, right? I do know how groups can change their statements as newer people move into leadership.

So, this is why I simply say I did not personally know John Calvin

And then I let each person speak for oneself, about what one believes as a Calvinist or what one understands Calvinists believe. I am discovering, as I get to know various people, that no group leader can speak for all in one's group, in any case. So, I enjoy discovering each person, and we can talk about what we have in God's word.

com7fy8 · Nov 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Please read post #264 in this thread where I addressed this issue and let me know your thoughts on that.

You said:
Jesus believed that people who were sinners, unbelievers living in their own nature, were capable of responding to His call for them to repent.

Yes, Jesus did spend time with sinners and call them to repent. But does this automatically mean He considered them capable of obeying Him?

He does say,

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" > in John 6:44.

And He says the world "cannot" receive the Holy Spirit, in Luke 14:17.

So, what I have is Jesus spoke to them, understanding how our Father brings to pass what His word spoken means . . . like to how Jesus spoke to the raging sea and then all was calm. He spoke it, God made it happen . . . like in creation how God spoke and God made it come to pass.

Spiritual Jew said:
If their repentance was entirely up to God then why was Jesus saddened and angry at the ones who did not repent (please read Matthew 23 and the following passage)?

Because He cares about sinners. But He is displeased with how they are.

I have read and fed on Romans 9 and 11.

To me, it appears that God is the Potter who makes one vessel for salvation and another for dishonor. And He is not pleased with the vessel for dishonor.

I consider it could be like how you have perfectly good metal for making milk buckets, but there have to be buckets for carrying manure. So, you can be angry about the manure buckets since it is a waste of your precious metal. But you have to have an organized way of managing the sewage.

com7fy8 · Nov 17, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
But in terms of those who have heard or read the gospel, do you believe salvation is offered to them? It wouldn't make sense to say that Jesus died for their sins while at the same time saying that salvation is not offered to them, right?

Yes, Jesus has been offered to the world.

But not all benefit from this the way we could. But every human does get blessed somehow > as it says, "especially of those who believe." (in 1 Timothy 4:10)

So, for us, then, whether we believe in free will or whatever > if we pray and bless the way God wants, His grace goes out to benefit every one, somehow. And our example can help anyone . . . however God blesses. And how God truly blesses can not be forced on anyone, in any case.

Titus 2:11 demonstrates free will for "everyone".

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads