What About Progressive Sanctification?

JAL said:

And orthodoxy uses nothing but human reasoning and philosophy to assert the hypostatic union and DDS (Doctrine of Divine Simplicity).

Do the math. You seem to prefer a Quadrinity.


Appeal to authority. You're saying that because I question orthodoxy, my views should be discarded.

I'm the one denying the Deity of Christ? That's funny. I thought it was the orthodox view positioning a created human soul within His earthly body, instead of the uncreated God.
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Scripture below opposes your humanistic philosophy jal.

Hebrews 13:8- Changeless, Immutable - Jesus is always the same and does not change.

Malachi 3:6
“For I, the LORD, do not change

Psalm 102:27
But You remain the same

word game over jal as Scripture is in opposition to your human philosophical argument.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Scripture below opposes your humanistic philosophy jal.

Hebrews 13:8- Changeless, Immutable - Jesus is always the same and does not change.

Malachi 3:6
“For I, the LORD, do not change

Psalm 102:27
But You remain the same

word game over jal as Scripture is in opposition to your human philosophical argument.

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While I don't agree with the way our friend speaks to others here, I do agree that 100% Immutability is not exactly correct.

Hebrews 13:8 is in context to us doing certain holy actions. So Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever in the fact that He works us to live a holy life by faith in Him.

Malachi 3:6 is in context to God's good ways. This is how He does not change.

Psalms 102:27 is in context to how the wicked will fade away and God and His good ways will endure forever. This is in view of God remains the same. God is good, and faithful and His goodness will remain the same forever.

For if you were to read these chapters for yourself, you will see that is what these verses are referring to.

Anyways, my point here is that these verses do not prove that God has not changed in regards to other things. The Incarnation proves God changes things. The setting forth of the New Covenant proves God changes things. God was going to destroy the Ninevites, but He changed His mind based on their repentance.

So yes. God in some ways does not change, but in other ways God can change.
So the correct doctrine should be Partial Immutability (in my humble opinion).

But if you disagree, I will not put you down and I will strive to not make you feel like you are beneath me. I will simply respectively agree to disagree with you in love.

In any event, may God's love shine upon you today.

JAL said:

The Voice caused them to feel certain that murder was the right thing to do, a

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This rule only works if you are near to God and capable of being receptive and communing with him. If we are blind or have too much Darkness or if darkness is our light then we cannot walk in faith. Beings like the devil are quite clearly insane. some beings would not be able to tell God from a banana. To not be near God is to be dead to even your own self. How can you make good decisions if you don't even hardly exist?

I know of a guy that thought he was told by God to kill someone but it is not only God who influences people. God was doing something different with this guy than he was with Abraham and his son.

But I guess you bolded the "feel certain" part for a reason. Then again some people can get so confused that they may feel certain. Demonic certainty is a warpped certainty.

JAL said:

As expected. You were unable to postulate even one scenario clearly calling for departure from the rule.

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QvQ said:

Ignorance of the law excuses no man and no man is a law unto himself.
If God's Law is A, even if I believe that B is correct, God will most certainly hold me to account for rebellion, pride, disobedience and for breaking the law.
All unrepentant sinners feel justified in their sins, certain that God either does not exist or God will agree with their rationalizations.

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Laws cannot always account for all of reality because reality is too complex and dynamic. Obviously some laws are better than others. But there are plenty of examples in the Old Testament of things that are just plain confusing and irrational, and which require the aid of God to derive useful wisdom from.

Too many Christians use the law as a rigid excuse to condemn even children. They stumble over the law like those in the days of Jesus who opposed him did. There is no doubt that we need guidance and inner life to properly formulate laws. A law is only the outward appearance of something that is deeper.

Noxot said:

Laws cannot always account for all of reality because reality is too complex and dynamic. Obviously some laws are better than others. But there are plenty of examples in the Old Testament of things that are just plain confusing and irrational, and which require the aid of God to derive useful wisdom from.

Too many Christians use the law as a rigid excuse to condemn even children. They stumble over the law like those in the days of Jesus who opposed him did. There is no doubt that we need guidance and inner life to properly formulate laws. A law is only the outward appearance of something that is deeper.

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Indeed Miracles break all the natural laws of science.

Monksailor said:

I think some people get sanctification mixed up with justification.

We are justified by Christ, by our acceptance of what He did on the cross in our behalf. It, justified before a holy God, is full and instantaneous from day one of our regeneration.

Sanctification by the nature of its definition is a lifelong process.
Sanctification "involves more than a mere moral reformation of character, brought about by the power of the truth: it is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing the whole nature more and more under the influences of the new gracious principles implanted in the soul in regeneration. In other words, sanctification is the carrying on to perfection the work begun in regeneration, and it extends to the whole man (Rom. 6:13; 2 Cor. 4:6; Col. 3:10; 1 John 4:7; 1 Cor. 6:19). It is the special office of the Holy Spirit in the plan of redemption to carry on this work (1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Thess. 2:13). Faith is instrumental in securing sanctification, inasmuch as it (1) secures union to Christ (Gal. 2:20), and (2) brings the believer into living contact with the truth, whereby he is led to yield obedience "to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come."

Perfect sanctification is not attainable in this life (1 Kings 8:46; Prov. 20:9; Eccl. 7:20; James 3:2; 1 John 1:8). See Paul's account of himself in Rom. 7:14-25; Phil. 3:12-14; and 1 Tim. 1:15; also the confessions of David (Ps. 19:12, 13; 51), of Moses (90:8), of Job (42:5, 6), and of Daniel (9:3-20). "The more holy a man is, the more humble, self-renouncing, self-abhorring, and the more sensitive to every sin he becomes, and the more closely he clings to Christ. The moral imperfections which cling to him he feels to be sins, which he laments and strives to overcome. Believers find that their life is a constant warfare, and they need to take the kingdom of heaven by storm, and watch while they pray. They are always subject to the constant chastisement of their Father's loving hand, which can only be designed to correct their imperfections and to confirm their graces. And it has been notoriously the fact that the best Christians have been those who have been the least prone to claim the attainment of perfection for themselves.", Hodge's Outlines." pasted from: BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: SANCTIFICATION

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There is a flaw in that people say they can't be perfected in this life when Jesus showed that it is possible to be perfected in this life because he went through it for himself. The greatest Saints have no sin and Jesus is certainly among those. I think it is the will of God that there be people that have no sin and therefore it is very possible. There comes a point where if someone keeps faking humility and saying how horrible they are that They're slandering the Holy Spirit. If they would stop with the virtue signaling of humility, beating their chest and casting ashes on themselves then maybe those could have progressed to something even greater.

With God all things are possible. so we have to leave open the door of sinlessness even if we ourselves know how impossible it seems.

JAL said:

Seems to me that the hypostatic union merely juxtaposes a created human soul to the Trinity as an adjunct, sitting alongside the Trinity and thus ineffective for a real Incarnation.

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that's because the Orthodox are trying to Wrangle their way out of humanities closeness to God. The Son of God was fully God and fully human and has always been as he is. Before Jesus was a human he was a human. Humans are Not Mere mortal creatures. but the Orthodox are foolish because they think that the pre-existence of souls is a lie.

Immortals die by becoming mortal. Before I was a creature I was in God. Before the universe was God was. If what you say about Christ is true then it can be applied to God and this universe. what is there to stop me from saying that the first will in eternal matter is just part of God limiting himself? There is nothing to stop me. There is no other reason that can be drawn when you trace yourself back far enough, there could only be God.

people try to apply thomistic metaphysics as if that is the final state of reality or the fullness of the truth. It is but one part of the truth and just like Christ makes people to stumble over him so too do people stumble over other truth. Truth is an ascending forever with God. We should never want to stop but rather always go more and more.

Noxot said:

Laws cannot always account for all of reality because reality is too complex and dynamic. Obviously some laws are better than others. But there are plenty of examples in the Old Testament of things that are just plain confusing and irrational, and which require the aid of God to derive useful wisdom from.

Too many Christians use the law as a rigid excuse to condemn even children. They stumble over the law like those in the days of Jesus who opposed him did. There is no doubt that we need guidance and inner life to properly formulate laws. A law is only the outward appearance of something that is deeper.

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There are exceptions to every rule but as noted above, the voice we hear may be our own sinful nature or the devil himself. Relying on our own wisdom, we must be careful we are not deceived.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Scripture below opposes your humanistic philosophy jal.

Hebrews 13:8- Changeless, Immutable - Jesus is always the same and does not change.

Malachi 3:6
“For I, the LORD, do not change

Psalm 102:27
But You remain the same

word game over jal as Scripture is in opposition to your human philosophical argument.

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Agreed. The Lord is irreversibly holy. Has been for quite some time and will remain so forever.

He was certainly holy yesterday, is holy today, and will remain so forever. Just like those verses teach.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Scripture below opposes your humanistic philosophy jal.

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Human-istic philosphy? You do see the word "human" as the stem of that word, right? Such as the idea of placing a created human soul within Christ? Can you show me some Scripture establishing that claim? Oh that's right you can't. It originated in humanistic philosophy.

Noxot said:

This rule only works if you are near to God...I know of a guy that thought he was told by God to kill someone but it is not only God who influences people. God was doing something different with this guy than he was with Abraham and his son.

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The Rule is a tautology. There are no exceptions.
(1) You have not shown any scenario that calls for departure from the rule.
(2) You have done nothing to show that the rule isn't a tautology.
(3) You have not discredited the biblical foundation for the rule (such as 1Cor 8 and Rom 14)
(4) You have not discredited the biblical example of people who lived by the rule.

Again, show me one scenario where God would commend someone for deliberately attempting to do evil.
Because that's what it takes to impugn the Rule.

JAL said:

Human-istic philosphy? You do see the word "human" as the stem of that word, right? Such as the idea of placing a created human soul within Christ? Can you show me some Scripture establishing that claim? Oh that's right you can't. It originated in humanistic philosophy.

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Yet He is FULLY GOD lacking NOTHING.

next............................

JAL said:

The Rule is a tautology. There are no exceptions.
(1) You have not shown any scenario that calls for departure from the rule.
(2) You have done nothing to show that the rule isn't a tautology.
(3) You have not discredited the biblical foundation for the rule (such as 1Cor 8 and Rom 14)
(4) You have not discredited the biblical example of people who lived by the rule.

Again, show me one scenario where God would commend someone for deliberately attempting to do evil.
Because that's what it takes to impugn the Rule.

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what's funny is that my dogs follow this rule but it's hella annoying when they bark at things that I don't like them to bark at.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Yet He is FULLY GOD lacking NOTHING.

next............................

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Hm....a created human soul is fully God? Are you saying that our God is created? Do you make a habit of worshiping created human souls?

JAL said:

Hm....a created human soul is fully God? Are you saying that our God is created? Do you make a habit of worshiping created human souls?

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fully God

and you claim to be a trinitarian ?

its laughable....................

next.................

Jesus is YHWH said:

fully God

and you claim to be a trinitarian ?

its laughable....................

next.................

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Oh yes. Absolutely hilarious that I prefer to worship the uncreated Trinity instead of created human souls. Falling out of my seat in stitches here.

RickReads said:

Speaking of in stitches, you did say that Jesus was a one-cell organism before God made Him a man.

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yikes

RickReads said:

Speaking of in stitches, you did say that Jesus was a one-cell organism before God made Him a man.

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The Son of God was all-knowing and all-powerful before God made Him a man. As well as our Creator. I don't know of any one-celled organisms that can boast the same.

I did say that God only needed to incarnate one small part of Him (roughly equivalent to one cell)
I ALSO said that my system is flexible - it allows for the possibility that His entire enthroned figure was compressed into Mary's womb and mated to the embryo (if one prefers to take that position).

But none of that is really important. It doesn't really matter what you think about my solution. What matters is that it WORKS - the logic is seamless. Whereas the hypostatic union leads to logically irreconcilable conclusions, as those scholars admit!

RickReads said:

Speaking of in stitches, you did say that Jesus was a one-cell organism before God made Him a man.

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To summarize my last post, that reading amounts to a strawman caricature of my words.