What About Progressive Sanctification?

QvQ

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MY rule? LOL. Actually:
(1) It's God's rule, because He is just.
(2) Take a hard look at Romans 14 - the whole chapter - but the climax is this part:
"Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind" (verse 5)
The final arbiter of righteous behavior is whether I personally feel certain the action in question is good or evil.
(3) You'll find the same conclusion implied in the discussion of conscience at 1Cor 8.

Here's what you DON'T want. You certainly DON'T want God to judge you on what is right or wrong - much better for him to judge you on the Rule, that is, on what you THINK is right and wrong. Suppose for example God wants you to goto university-A but you THOUGHT He wanted university-B. Now He puts you under judgment for "disobedience" ! Maybe even strikes you with a fatal disease! Even though you did the best you could, acting to the best of your knowledge!

Is that really how you want God to treat you? I sure don't want that.
Ignorance of the law excuses no man and no man is a law unto himself.
If God's Law is A, even if I believe that B is correct, God will most certainly hold me to account for rebellion, pride, disobedience and for breaking the law.
All unrepentant sinners feel justified in their sins, certain that God either does not exist or God will agree with their rationalizations.
 
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JAL

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There isn't one you would accept. So I withdraw as I am wasting my time.
There is a very big difference between a murder and self defense, justifiable homicide, mitigating circumstances.
Right. I won't accept any scenario where you are trying to tell me that a deliberate attempt to do evil is the morally right thing to do. That's a contradiction in terms.

Stated differently, the rule is tautological. So you are perfectly correct - I can't imagine rejecting a tautology. Anyone committed to rational thinking would agree with me.
 
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JAL

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Ignorance of the law excuses no man and no man is a law unto himself.
If God's Law is A, even if I believe that B is correct, God will most certainly hold me to account for rebellion, pride, disobedience and for breaking the law.
All unrepentant sinners feel justified in their sins, certain that God either does not exist or God will agree with their rationalizations.
Wow. You must have been miserable in your college days. Maybe you picked the wrong university? How did you manage to sleep at night, knowing that the heavenly hammer was about to fall?

And how do you manage right now? Maybe you picked:
(1) The wrong job
(2) The wrong wife
(3) The wrong names for your kids
(4) The wrong city to live in
(5) The wrong house
(6) The wrong food for supper
(7) The wrong grocery store
(8) The wrong investment fund
.....etc, etc, etc.

And you still manage to sleep at night? How? Oh, that's right, deep down you DO believe in the rule. You DO believe that God will honor you, and pleased with you, for doing the best you could.

Actions speak louder than words, my friend.
 
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JAL

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Ignorance of the law excuses no man and no man is a law unto himself.
If God's Law is A, even if I believe that B is correct, God will most certainly hold me to account for rebellion, pride, disobedience and for breaking the law.
Suppose you buy some food from the grocery store. You took every reasonable precaution to insure it was trustworthy food. But it's poisoned (perhaps by a perpetrator) and thus God's will is that you do NOT feed it to your family. You're not aware of any of this, and your whole family dies.

You terrible person! You murderer! By your principles, God should hold you to account IN FULL for your evil deeds.
 
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JAL

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All unrepentant sinners feel justified in their sins, certain that God either does not exist or God will agree with their rationalizations.
I don't see how you reconcile this claim with Rom 1 and 2 where Paul seems to be saying that sinners are aware of living in sin.
 
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QvQ

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Wow. You must have been miserable in your college days. Maybe you picked the wrong university? How did you manage to sleep at night, knowing that the heavenly hammer was about to fall?

And how do you manage right now? Maybe you picked:
(1) The wrong job
(2) The wrong wife
(3) The wrong names for your kids
(4) The wrong city to live in
(5) The wrong house
(6) The wrong food for supper
(7) The wrong grocery store
(8) The wrong investment fund
.....etc, etc, etc.

And you still manage to sleep at night? How? Oh, that's right, deep down you DO believe in the rule. You DO believe that God will honor you, and pleased with you, for doing the best you could.

Actions speak louder than words, my friend.
Nothing on that list is a sin.
 
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JAL

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Nothing on that list is a sin.
All of it is. Any time you behave contrary to the will of God, by your principles, it is sin.

For example if you buy the wrong food (e.g. insufficient vitamins), you injure your family. That's a direct violation of Romans

"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" (Rom 13)

This too is a tautology. Why would God's law - if He is good - endorse a course of behavior harmful to our neighbor? He would not. This creates a problem. We lack sufficient knowledge - even if we study Scripture day and night - to know His will accurately enough to avoid harming our neighbor.

What's the soolution? Is God's will unrealizable? Must our neighbors be harmed? The solution is Direct Revelation! That's the only way to know God's will 100% of the time.

But how do we recognize Direct Revelation without fail? By heeding the Rule of Conscience! (I explained this connection in my recent posts to you).
 
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QvQ

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All of it is. Any time you behave contrary to the will of God, by your principles, it is sin.

For example if you buy the wrong food (e.g. insufficient vitamins), you injure your family. That's a direct violation of Romans

"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" (Rom 13)

This too is a tautology. Why would God's law - if He is good - endorse a course of behavior harmful to our neighbor? He would not. This creates a problem. We lack sufficient knowledge - even if we study Scripture day and night - to know His will accurately enough to avoid harming our neighbor.

What's the soolution? Is God's will unrealizable? Must our neighbors be harmed? The solution is Direct Revelation! That's the only way to know God's will 100% of the time.

But how do we recognize Direct Revelation without fail? By heeding the Rule of Conscience! (I explained this connection in my recent posts to you).
No one, not Hitler, not Ted Bundy, thought what they were doing was evil. I would venture a guess that no one in history said to themselves, "I am going to do evil."
Even the worst criminals do not believe their actions are evil or wrong. They admit their actions are crimes, but state emphatically, the law is wrong. It is not a sin therefore to do what they do, but justifiable righteousness.
That is why the theory of "conscience" and "direct revelation" is not trustworthy.
 
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Sovereign Grace

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Isn't Sanctification by nature progressive?

We'd kind of die if God changed us that much in an instant.
It’s how Christians are transformed more and more into Christ’s image over time. As newborn babes in Christ, we don’t know anything, or at least anything with any depth. That’s why we are to study, attend church and learn the scriptures under a solid pastor. Ephesians 4:11-16 is a good example.
 
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Psalm 27

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Newsflash: As for the Son of God, His entire life on earth was an exercise in mutability.

"And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man" (Luke 2:52).

Not my fault you don't believe the Scriptures. That was YOUR decision. As for immutability, let's put the final nail in the coffin, shall we? These two definitions of divine holiness stand diametrically opposed:
(1) Innate, immutable, intrinsic holiness. (The orthodox position)
(2) Acquired holiness - acquired by free will. (My position).
Now I will show why #1 contradicts the whole Bible. This is an argument I haven't unveiled as yet, although I hinted at it back at post 665.

Scripture doesn't merely COMMAND us to praise God. It goes further than that - it insists that He is WORTHY of our praise, that He DESERVES/MERITS our praise. The problem is, holiness as defined in #1 does not merit praise! Innate characteristics do not merit praise! For example, do not praise me for being human, or for my red blood, or my gorgeous features - all these things exist, but do not merit praise. The UNANIMOUS definition of merit - the definition that has grounded every sermon in the last 2000 years, is the following:

"Merit is a status achieved by freely choosing to labor/suffer for a righteous cause over an extended period of time".

The best example is the cross. Suppose the Father had anesthetized Christ's nerves, and tranquilized His mind, sufficiently to prevent any suffering for the whole ordeal of the cross. How much praise would the cross merit, in that case? Zero! Zilch! None! Nada!

How much labor? Bear in mind that even the angels have merit - they labored/suffered against the agony of temptation for at least a period of time, and overcame it. And even ordinary Christian men labor for more than 50 years.

But Scripture claims that God has ineffably more merit than men have. Recently I was debating with a YEC (young earth creationist). I told him it was impossible that God created the world in 7 24-hour periods, that it contradicts His holiness. (At first he thought I was crazy as he couldn't connect the dots).

Then I explained to him. Since both angels and men have labored more than 7 days, we would merit more praise than God has merited for creation. Therefore you must conclude that God TOOK TIME to learn how to create (and manage) this complex planet. Start thinking in terms of millions of years, nay, BILLIONS even. Perhaps even tens of billions of gradual learning and skill. As I said, we already know that God's knowledge is NOT innate, it is ACQUIRED/LEARNED - we know this from the Incarnation:


"And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man" (Luke 2:52).

Of course it is learned. Otherwise His knowledge wouldn't merit any praise!

And more than that - only a jerk would want us to praise him for His innate characteristics! How would you feel about me, if I expected you to praise me for my red blood, my beating heart, and (of course) my gorgeous face? You'd consider me a jerk!

To summarize, for 2,000 years the church has been willing to praise the Ancient of Days for 3 days of passion for the cross, but has DENIED HIM ALL THE GLORY for His holiness (acquired over probably 13 billion years of labor minimum, if science is correct about the age of the universe). This is TOTAL DISREPECT for His age, it despises His title as Ancient of Days, it deprives Him of 99.9999999% of the glory, and it is probably worse than spitting on the cross.

Job 38
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?

12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
 
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JAL

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No one, not Hitler, not Ted Bundy, thought what they were doing was evil. I would venture a guess that no one in history said to themselves, "I am going to do evil."
Even the worst criminals do not believe their actions are evil or wrong. They admit their actions are crimes, but state emphatically, the law is wrong. It is not a sin therefore to do what they do, but justifiable righteousness.
That is why the theory of "conscience" and "direct revelation" is not trustworthy.
Still asking me to reject a tautology? Given the tautology, you need to rethink all those scenarios that you keep drudging up - that's YOUR responsibility, not mine. And yet somehow you keep asking me to do your homework for you. So here we go again.

Shall we start with Hitler? That's your concern? You're hung up on that little guy? Why don't we raise the stakes a little? After all, you said:

No one, not Hitler, not Ted Bundy, thought what they were doing was evil. I would venture a guess that no one in history said to themselves, "I am going to do evil."
Even the worst criminals do not believe their actions are evil or wrong.
So that would include satan too, right? I think it would.

Let me get this straight. In your view, all these people - including satan - are perfectly well-intentioned people who acted righteously to the best of their knowledge and ability. They are all perfectly good guys. The world simply couldn't ask for better examples of people dedicated to selfless, altruistic, self-sacrificial living. The real jerk here is God who refuses to appreciate people whose heart is in the right place. Instead of valuing their pure hearts, He judges the book by its cover and thereby condemns them to hell. What a monster is our God!
 
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Gregory Thompson

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It’s how Christians are transformed more and more into Christ’s image over time. As newborn babes in Christ, we don’t know anything, or at least anything with any depth. That’s why we are to study, attend church and learn the scriptures under a solid pastor. Ephesians 4:11-16 is a good example.
Churches tend to lack the direction of the quoted passage. Most notably "until we attain the unity of faith"
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Newsflash: As for the Son of God, His entire life on earth was an exercise in mutability.

.
You espouse the heresy and false teaching rejected by Scripture, the ECF's and the church throughout history. The doctrine of demons known as KENOSIS- the EMPTY god.

see below for the answer in the bible you seek. Your vain human reasoning and understanding is a stumbling block for you jal. The fact is Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever ( Immutable). He doesn't change.

You need to line up your beliefs with the TRUTH in Scripture.


What About Progressive Sanctification?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Newsflash: As for the Son of God, His entire life on earth was an exercise in mutability.

"And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man" (Luke 2:52).
.

When “the Word became flesh” (John 1:14), He did not become two people (one divine and one human), but He became one Person with two distinct natures, a fully divine nature and a fully human nature. The Word was unchanged as He entered a union with sinless human nature in a physical body (Hebrews 10:5).

Here lies the specific answer to the question: as to Jesus’ divine nature, He is unchanging. As to His human nature, He is changeable. As God, Jesus is unchangeable, infinite, ever-supreme in every way. But as to His human nature, He is changeable, subject to weakness, able to suffer, able to die. He is simultaneously divine and human, infinitely strong and suffering weakness, immortal and mortal. He is the God-man.

The Son of God did not change His nature at the Incarnation. The divine nature did not “blend” with the human nature—that would have required change. Rather, the divine nature resides with the human nature in the Person of Christ. The Incarnation means that Jesus can lay claim to both His divine nature and His human nature.

In John 17:5, Jesus prays to the Father, “Glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” Both of Jesus’ natures are evident in this request. He refers to His pre-existence with God in which He shared the Father’s glory (evincing His divine nature), and He asks to be glorified (evincing His human nature).

God must be immutable, since He cannot degrade into a worse state and He cannot improve into a better state. He is ever-perfect and, as God, cannot be otherwise. Perfection is an absolute, and it is impossible for Him to be “more perfect.” By contrast, a human being lacks infinite capacities. A human is finite and mutable and always has room for improvement, which explains the fact that Jesus “grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men” (Luke 2:52).

In the end, the great theological minds of the fourth and fifth centuries who wrestled with this problem responded by saying, in so many words, “We cannot fully explain it, but based on Scripture, we know that Jesus Christ was both human and divine. We are bound to affirm what Scripture affirms even if we must admit that aspects of the Incarnation are a wonderful mystery. Mysterious or not, we avow what God has revealed to us concerning this.”

There is a wonderful connection to our salvation that flows out of this mystery of the Incarnation. It is that Christ, God the Son incarnate, is the ideal ambassador between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5). As God, He can perfectly represent God to us; as a human, He can perfectly serve as our advocate before God the Father, making peace on our behalf. “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One” (1 John 2:1).got?

hope this helps !!!
 
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Monksailor

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I think some people get sanctification mixed up with justification.

We are justified by Christ, by our acceptance of what He did on the cross in our behalf. It, justified before a holy God, is full and instantaneous from day one of our regeneration.

Sanctification by the nature of its definition is a lifelong process.
Sanctification "involves more than a mere moral reformation of character, brought about by the power of the truth: it is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing the whole nature more and more under the influences of the new gracious principles implanted in the soul in regeneration. In other words, sanctification is the carrying on to perfection the work begun in regeneration, and it extends to the whole man (Rom. 6:13; 2 Cor. 4:6; Col. 3:10; 1 John 4:7; 1 Cor. 6:19). It is the special office of the Holy Spirit in the plan of redemption to carry on this work (1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Thess. 2:13). Faith is instrumental in securing sanctification, inasmuch as it (1) secures union to Christ (Gal. 2:20), and (2) brings the believer into living contact with the truth, whereby he is led to yield obedience "to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come."

Perfect sanctification is not attainable in this life (1 Kings 8:46; Prov. 20:9; Eccl. 7:20; James 3:2; 1 John 1:8). See Paul's account of himself in Rom. 7:14-25; Phil. 3:12-14; and 1 Tim. 1:15; also the confessions of David (Ps. 19:12, 13; 51), of Moses (90:8), of Job (42:5, 6), and of Daniel (9:3-20). "The more holy a man is, the more humble, self-renouncing, self-abhorring, and the more sensitive to every sin he becomes, and the more closely he clings to Christ. The moral imperfections which cling to him he feels to be sins, which he laments and strives to overcome. Believers find that their life is a constant warfare, and they need to take the kingdom of heaven by storm, and watch while they pray. They are always subject to the constant chastisement of their Father's loving hand, which can only be designed to correct their imperfections and to confirm their graces. And it has been notoriously the fact that the best Christians have been those who have been the least prone to claim the attainment of perfection for themselves.", Hodge's Outlines." pasted from: BibleGateway.com Dictionaries: SANCTIFICATION
 
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JAL

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When “the Word became flesh” (John 1:14), He did not become two people (one divine and one human), but He became one Person with two distinct natures, a fully divine nature and a fully human nature. The Word was unchanged as He entered a union with sinless human nature in a physical body (Hebrews 10:5).

Here lies the specific answer to the question: as to Jesus’ divine nature, He is unchanging. As to His human nature, He is changeable. As God, Jesus is unchangeable, infinite, ever-supreme in every way. But as to His human nature, He is changeable, subject to weakness, able to suffer, able to die. He is simultaneously divine and human, infinitely strong and suffering weakness, immortal and mortal. He is the God-man.

The Son of God did not change His nature at the Incarnation. The divine nature did not “blend” with the human nature—that would have required change. Rather, the divine nature resides with the human nature in the Person of Christ. The Incarnation means that Jesus can lay claim to both His divine nature and His human nature.

In John 17:5, Jesus prays to the Father, “Glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” Both of Jesus’ natures are evident in this request. He refers to His pre-existence with God in which He shared the Father’s glory (evincing His divine nature), and He asks to be glorified (evincing His human nature).

God must be immutable, since He cannot degrade into a worse state and He cannot improve into a better state. He is ever-perfect and, as God, cannot be otherwise. Perfection is an absolute, and it is impossible for Him to be “more perfect.” By contrast, a human being lacks infinite capacities. A human is finite and mutable and always has room for improvement, which explains the fact that Jesus “grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men” (Luke 2:52).

In the end, the great theological minds of the fourth and fifth centuries who wrestled with this problem responded by saying, in so many words, “We cannot fully explain it, but based on Scripture, we know that Jesus Christ was both human and divine. We are bound to affirm what Scripture affirms even if we must admit that aspects of the Incarnation are a wonderful mystery. Mysterious or not, we avow what God has revealed to us concerning this.”

There is a wonderful connection to our salvation that flows out of this mystery of the Incarnation. It is that Christ, God the Son incarnate, is the ideal ambassador between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5). As God, He can perfectly represent God to us; as a human, He can perfectly serve as our advocate before God the Father, making peace on our behalf. “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One” (1 John 2:1).got?

hope this helps !!!

(1) Post 850 seems devastating to immutability. You've ignored every opportunity to rebut the specific arguments in that post. Seems pretty clear you can't.

(2) I pointedly asked you whether the soul in Christ's body was the uncreated Son of God or a created human. You keep ignoring this question. Funny you accuse ME of human reasoning. That's odd. Me alone? What about the entire body of orthodoxy, inasmuch as they define Christ's soul as a created human soul added to the Trinity - a human soul who is one of us, could have been you or I - without a single verse to back up this rather fantastical claim! Clearly it's an exercise in human reasoning!

(3) Why should I accept human reasoning that leads to irreconcilable conclusions? Again, 2 natures is like claiming:
(A) My friend Mike is math genius. He knows all math.
(B) But he doesn't know any math as yet.
When I cited a scholar who admitted this problem to be insoluble, you dismissed it as a mere appeal to authority. That's all it is? Ok, if that's all, you should be happy to resolve the issue - but have utterly failed to do so. Obviously you can't.

(4) Again, the whole point of the Incarnation is to transition the Son of God from divine experience to human-like experience. What was His divine experience like, prior to the Incarnation? Per orthodoxy:
(A) Omniscient
(B) Omnipotent, untiring
(C) Immutably holy - no point in trying to tempt Him in the wilderness.
What happens next, according to orthodoxy? A human nature is "added" to Him. Does it work? Did the Son transition to a new experience? Orthodoxy SAYS it succeeded, but claims that the divine experience remains unchanged! A, B, and C persist! How was that a success? Seems to me that the hypostatic union merely juxtaposes a created human soul to the Trinity as an adjunct, sitting alongside the Trinity and thus ineffective for a real Incarnation.

Look. Since Scripture isn't explicit on all the details of the Incarnation, any Christology will be a theological construct - it will inevitably involve some degree of human reasoning. But why not go with reasoning that clearly works?

Despite your supposed disdain for appeals to authority, I think that reliance on authority is your real justification for clinging to the orthodox position. You don't want to accept the fact that orthodoxy could be mistaken. Here's a paradox I've always found fascinating. Ask any evangelical, "Are you infallible?" He will be quick to say, "No. Of course not." Now challenge him on a major doctrine. He'll be just as quick to respond, "I can't possibly be wrong about that one!"
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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@JAL nothing but human reasoning and philosophy to deny The Immutability of God.

You are not a trinitarian no matter what you claim. kenosis heretics are anti-trinitarian, anti-christ denying the Deity of Christ that He had all the fulness of Deity in Him while on earth as per Colossians 1:19;2:9.

You have described a false god and false christ both whom in your false teaching are not Immutable hence not God.

hope this helps !!!
 
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JAL

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@JAL nothing but human reasoning and philosophy to deny The Immutability of God.
And orthodoxy uses nothing but human reasoning and philosophy to assert the hypostatic union and DDS (Doctrine of Divine Simplicity).

You are not a trinitarian no matter what you claim.
Do the math. You seem to prefer a Quadrinity.


kenosis heretics are anti-trinitarian
Appeal to authority. You're saying that because I question orthodoxy, my views should be discarded.

anti-christ denying the Deity of Christ that He had all the fulness of Deity in Him while on earth as per Colossians 1:19;2:9.
I'm the one denying the Deity of Christ? That's funny. I thought it was the orthodox view positioning a created human soul within His earthly body, instead of the uncreated God.

You have described a false god and false christ both whom in your false teaching are not Immutable hence not God.
False according to what? Oh that's right, human reasoning.
 
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