Titus 2:11 demonstrates free will for "everyone".

Spiritual Jew said:

Obviously not. Why would you ask that question?

Now, can you answer my question instead of responding with your own question?

Click to expand...

My question was intended to show that your question misrepresented the facts. God does not punish people for not having faith. He punishes them for their sin.

Mark Quayle said:

My question was intended to show that your question misrepresented the facts. God does not punish people for not having faith. He punishes them for their sin.

Click to expand...

I disagree. He punishes them for both.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Spiritual Jew said:

Would a good God punish people with eternal torment for not having faith in Christ if they were not even capable of having faith in Christ?

Click to expand...

Some programs (people) were just never meant or ever intended to be meant for anything more than just more of this ever, and that is "forever", etc...

But as to some maybe not even being capable or not, of making the or a right choice or not, etc, and maybe not ever making it or not, etc, God still could choose to save or spare some of those anyway, etc, regardless, etc, maybe, etc, but I just do not think it will be all, etc, some just were not ever meant to ever go beyond or be any more than just this ever, or be more than just be meant for just more of just only this ever, and that is "forever", etc...

Only serve a purpose in only these kinds of existences only ever, and that is "forever", etc...

God Bless!

Mark Quayle said:

Not sure I follow what you are saying...

Click to expand...

That's OK, I understand.

Peace,

God Bless!

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I never even suggested that free will is found in every verse of the Bible, did I.

Do you really think this verse teaches that God is the root Cause of man's sin?? I sure don't.

Rather, God created humanity with the opportunity to rebel. Which he did. So, it was the opportunity that allowed humanity to err from His ways.

If you think this is a straight up proof text that God causes man's sins, I think you've got a real problem with biblical understanding.

And such thinking leads directly to puppetry theology or robotic theology. Take your pick.

That would be absurd and ridiculous. I've said no such thing. You just demonstrated a failure to understand my words.


So then, it seems you ARE arguing that God is the First Cause of sin. Is that right?

Click to expand...

Read the scripture again.

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

chad kincham said:

Sorry, but that’s backwards.

I know Calvinism demands that grace precedes faith, but scripture is clear that we get to grace THROUGH faith, and says faith is how we access grace, thus faith obviously comes first, before grace.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved THROUGH faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access BY faith INTO this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of FAITH that it might be by GRACE

Scripture doesn’t say faith comes from grace, but comes by hearing the word of God Romans 10:17

Shalom.

Click to expand...

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must have before you can have true faith.

Spiritual Jew said:

I disagree. He punishes them for both.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Click to expand...

NOW you are talking determining factor, not punishment. To be more clear, not payment. (Actually, their lack of belief is also sin, so in a sense, yes, they pay for that too.)

Mark Quayle said:

NOW you are talking determining factor, not punishment. To be more clear, not payment. (Actually, their lack of belief is also sin, so in a sense, yes, they pay for that too.)

Click to expand...

Thank you for acknowledging that you were wrong in saying that they are not punished for their lack of belief. Pretty hard to deny a straightforward verse like John 3:18, isn't it?

FreeGrace2 said:

Glad you approve.


Thank you for agreeing.


This is what you haven't shown, much less proven. And I gave a great example of the opposite; gun manufacturers. They are NOT responsible or accountable for any gun deaths. Even though the far left wants people to think so.


You haven't proven this either.

Click to expand...

Your sarcasm (unless you are actually believing my sarcasm was agreement) notwithstanding, the Law of Causality is indeed pervasive. I need not prove it. It is firmly accepted fact by science and philosophy (logicians). To say that anything other than First Cause is uncaused is absurdity.

Your example shows more than you realize. The gun manufacturers are not responsible for what they caused, in that they themselves do not pull the trigger in the gun deaths you reference. Nor does God sin in causing that sin be. Here you demand that those who cause gun deaths, whether they meant to or not, through secondary causes, (and, no, I know you didn't put it that way, but you demonstrated it all the same), are not to be blamed in gun deaths, (and I agree with you, btw), but you would hold God to blame for causing the choices of those who are slaves to sin? You contradict yourself.

Spiritual Jew said:

Thank you for acknowledging that you were wrong in saying that they are not punished for their lack of belief. Pretty hard to deny a straightforward verse like John 3:18, isn't it?

Click to expand...

Thank you for taking what I said as an admission that I was wrong, thus displaying your lack of intellectual honesty.

Verse 18 says that those who do not believe "are already condemned". Pretty hard to deny a straightforward verse like John 3:18, isn't it?

Spiritual Jew said:

Would a good God punish people with eternal torment for not having faith in Christ if they were not even capable of having faith in Christ?

Click to expand...

I offer that I am already aware of this issue. And Jesus says God alone is good, which to me means He is the only One capable of a really good choice.

And what I have is that hell is not only for punishing, but is God's holding place for evil, the spirit of evil (Ephesians 2:2), and ones who are vessels for holding Satan's evil spirit in organized form . . . in vessels of dishonor > Romans 9:21.

And I am noticing how so many humans do not choose God, so many more than do. To me, this confirms how humans of their own selves do not have the character to choose Jesus. They do not have the goodness of nature to choose Him. But Jesus does. Even before their fall, Adam and Eve didn't. Only Jesus could be the first to really live a choice of good.

So, none of us have been somehow superior to others, so we have gotten ourselves to make the good choice.

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

In case Adam and Eve did have some genuinely free and autonomous will before they fell, they did fall. I understand this would mean they lost that freedom, so their sin passed on to humans and made humans "slaves of sin" . . . not free.

And God's word says we were "dead" in our sin > Ephesians 2:1-3. We were not in love which would make us alive to choose God and loving the way Jesus means.

Plus, by the way, in sin we were already in torment . . . because of our own evil nature making us able to deeply suffer. My opinion is you can not suffer in hell unless you have a Satanic nature making you able to suffer there. But with Jesus we have His "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) which keeps us free from the corruption of Satanic passions and drives and the weakness to keep on suffering. In the nature of God's love we can not suffer spiritually >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, I don't think it is wise to say God is "horrible". He knows what is reality. And He has had mercy on us, and so He is the One to be thanked. And our logic is not.

"If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know." (in 1 Corinthians 8:2)

If anyone claims to have the ability to choose God, let us choose to constantly obey how God rules each of us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

It appears to me how some number of people who preach their own wills are not deeply submissive to God in His own peace. But they preach excuses, even, for not doing so . . . while they say not a word about how we can actively seek our Father to correct us > Hebrews 12:4-14 < and all which is guaranteed to come with God correcting every one of His children.

And our New Covenant includes "forgiving one another, even as God" > in Ephesians 4:32.

This is basic Christianity, if we have chosen Jesus. But I can hear more preaching of free will, than of personally submitting to our Father in His own peace, and more glorifying of free will and attention to free will, than I hear about "forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you."

Has our attention, then, chosen Jesus? Have we really chosen all which God has to offer?

By the way, when I hear ones talking about predestination, it has a lot to do with if humans control things . . . not a word about how God's children have been destined "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, all the arguing about who controls choices can be a decoy trick to keep attention away from becoming conformed to the image of Jesus.

chad kincham said:

If you put that in its actual context, the passage is but one of many of Paul’s warning to believers about choosing to walk in the flesh, aka living carnally, as believers, and of the consequences of not entering into heaven, if they walk in the flesh, instead of after the Spirit.

Click to expand...

So then show a passage where it says an unsaved person who cannot perceive the things of god has no capaicty to receive the things of God can decide with their nature which is opposed to God to receive Christ as Savior.

If a believer living in their old nature unable to please God, how can an unbeliever living in their own nature do something pleasing to God when a believer cannot?

FreeGrace2 said:

The key is found in Rom 1:19-21. Through creation, God has revealed His existence and divine power, so that no one has any excuse for not giving thanks to Him.

Anyone who realizes from creation that there is a Creator, and wants to know Him, like Cornelius the Centurion, will be given more information.

No one has any excuse.

Click to expand...

Absolutely!

But just remember Creation does not reveal the gospel message nor tell anyone who Jesus is!

I went to China several times. but my first time I am connvinced was simply to share the gospel with a young girl who was our tour guide who afterwards got saved and became an amazing disciple. God will send people to those who He knows belong to him.

Remember we are sent out to bring in the wheat- not turn the tares to wheat.

We are to go out and bring back the lost sheep, not turn goats to sheep.

Mark Quayle said:

Thank you for taking what I said as an admission that I was wrong, thus displaying your lack of intellectual honesty.

Verse 18 says that those who do not believe "are already condemned". Pretty hard to deny a straightforward verse like John 3:18, isn't it?

Click to expand...

They are already condemned for not believing and they will be punished for it on the day of judgment. Do you deny this? You already said that "their lack of belief is also sin, so in a sense, yes, they pay for that too.". Are you trying to take that back now?

com7fy8 said:

I offer that I am already aware of this issue. And Jesus says God alone is good, which to me means He is the only One capable of a really good choice.

And what I have is that hell is not only for punishing, but is God's holding place for evil, the spirit of evil (Ephesians 2:2), and ones who are vessels for holding Satan's evil spirit in organized form . . . in vessels of dishonor > Romans 9:21.

And I am noticing how so many humans do not choose God, so many more than do. To me, this confirms how humans of their own selves do not have the character to choose Jesus. They do not have the goodness of nature to choose Him. But Jesus does. Even before their fall, Adam and Eve didn't. Only Jesus could be the first to really live a choice of good.

So, none of us have been somehow superior to others, so we have gotten ourselves to make the good choice.

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

In case Adam and Eve did have some genuinely free and autonomous will before they fell, they did fall. I understand this would mean they lost that freedom, so their sin passed on to humans and made humans "slaves of sin" . . . not free.

And God's word says we were "dead" in our sin > Ephesians 2:1-3. We were not in love which would make us alive to choose God and loving the way Jesus means.

Plus, by the way, in sin we were already in torment . . . because of our own evil nature making us able to deeply suffer. My opinion is you can not suffer in hell unless you have a Satanic nature making you able to suffer there. But with Jesus we have His "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) which keeps us free from the corruption of Satanic passions and drives and the weakness to keep on suffering. In the nature of God's love we can not suffer spiritually >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, I don't think it is wise to say God is "horrible". He knows what is reality. And He has had mercy on us, and so He is the One to be thanked. And our logic is not.

"If anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know." (in 1 Corinthians 8:2)

If anyone claims to have the ability to choose God, let us choose to constantly obey how God rules each of us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

It appears to me how some number of people who preach their own wills are not deeply submissive to God in His own peace. But they preach excuses, even, for not doing so . . . while they say not a word about how we can actively seek our Father to correct us > Hebrews 12:4-14 < and all which is guaranteed to come with God correcting every one of His children.

And our New Covenant includes "forgiving one another, even as God" > in Ephesians 4:32.

This is basic Christianity, if we have chosen Jesus. But I can hear more preaching of free will, than of personally submitting to our Father in His own peace, and more glorifying of free will and attention to free will, than I hear about "forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you."

Has our attention, then, chosen Jesus? Have we really chosen all which God has to offer?

By the way, when I hear ones talking about predestination, it has a lot to do with if humans control things . . . not a word about how God's children have been destined "to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, all the arguing about who controls choices can be a decoy trick to keep attention away from becoming conformed to the image of Jesus.

Click to expand...

So, is it your belief then that God purposely made it so that most people would not believe so that He could torment them in the lake of fire for eternity? You believe that was His plan and no one could thwart that plan?

Do you believe that God wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2) as scripture teaches?