Titus 2:11 demonstrates free will for "everyone".

OK, let's try this, let's just pick just one thing and one thing (at a time) only and just tell me where you would like me to begin, K...?

BTW, I know almost nothing about Calvinism, I just think I know just a little bit, "just a little bit maybe", about God, OK...

So maybe we could start there maybe...?

Or just pick something, but just make sure it's just one thing and one thing at a time only please, OK...

God Bless!

com7fy8 said:

Well, it may not be meant to even deal with the subject of free will. It is talking about how God's grace has appeared. And His grace is for everyone.

This does not directly say one way or the other, about if a person has one's own free will capability to choose about receiving the gift.

Well, you can offer a gift to a baby, for when the baby becomes able to receive it, of course.

And Jesus can offer a gift, and then give the person the ability to receive it.

Jesus says,

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (in John 6:29)

I see that this means God works in a person so he or she believes.

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That is not what that verse is saying. Let's look at the context. I'll quote from the NASB since it looks like that is the translation you quoted.

John 6:25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?” 26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

Notice in verse 27 that Jesus told the crowd gathered at Capernaum to "not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life". He was speaking figuratively, but He was clearly saying that there was something they had to do in order to obtain eternal life. Then they asked Him what they had to do that God required of them. Jesus answered that what they needed to do was "believe in Him whom He has sent".

Jesus was not saying that them believing in Him was God's work or God's doing. You can see that by looking at the context. When He said "this is the work of God" He meant that this is what God requires you to do (the action He required from them) which was to "believe in Him whom He has sent".

Plus, we have >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

From this, I see how God desires for a person to be receptive . . . willing > and so God works in the person's will causing him or her to become willing, receptive. So, the receptivity is also a gift . . . of God's grace working in the person.

And John the Baptist says,

"A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven." (in John 3:27)

I see this can mean one needs to receive from heaven the ability to receive all God has for us.

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But, the part you are missing here is that God's efforts to reveal things to people through the Holy Spirit can be resisted, as we can see here:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

com7fy8 said:

I see it can mean God is in control, but it does not have to mean He wants the bad stuff.

For example, He did not want Joseph's brothers to hate Joseph and sell him into slavery > Genesis 37-50. But it was in His plan, but with the good end which He brought about. He wanted the overall result, which came by using what was not wanted, but usable.

Our Father did not want evil people to hate and crucify Christ. But He planned that and had control of that. And then He used it all for His good, and still is doing so. And Jesus came out with more and better than all He lost on Calvary.

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I understand that God can turn what people intend for evil into good. God certainly knew what was going to happen and He allowed it for His purpose.

But that doesn't mean He wanted so many of them to reject Christ. Just read Matthew 23 if you think it was God's plan for such a high percentage of them to reject Christ. It's one thing to believe that God intended for His Son to be made a sacrifice, but it's another thing entirely to think that God planned for a vast majority of the Jews to reject Christ. If that was His plan and what He wanted, then how could the following passage make any sense:

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

Spiritual Jew said:

That is not what that verse is saying. Let's look at the context. I'll quote from the NASB since it looks like that is the translation you quoted.

John 6:25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?” 26 Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

Notice in verse 27 that Jesus told the crowd gathered at Capernaum to "not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life". He was speaking figuratively, but He was clearly saying that there was something they had to do in order to obtain eternal life. Then they asked Him what they had to do that God required of them. Jesus answered that what they needed to do was "believe in Him whom He has sent".

Jesus was not saying that them believing in Him was God's doing. You can see that by looking at the context. When He said "this is the work of God" He meant that this is what God requires you to do (the action He required from them) which was to "believe in Him whom He has sent".

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It is all of it, "all of it", only under the umbrella if "only if the Father God has willed it", or "has already willed" (or predestinated) "it" only always...

Otherwise your saying there are other things or other wills that are stronger than His (God's) and that are outside of His (God's) power and/or control, and/or ability to reign in or control, etc...

Not to mention, as has already been mentioned a lot already, over and over again, etc, not to mention that, we are also, in some small way or ways, our own saviors to a lesser or greater degree or another if it is in any way based on "us", etc, or what we do or don't do, or choose or don't choose, etc, which makes our wills stronger than God's, and is also "also" a "grace and/or faith plus works" mixture also, etc...

Everything Jesus and/or the apostles said and or told us to choose or not choose, or else do or not do, etc, (choose, etc), was always, "always" always only under the guise or umbrella always of only if God the Father has already chosen it to be or not be or ever already be or become so at all ever, etc, "at all" "ever", etc, and we would all do very, very well to not ever forget that, etc...

Cause to forget that is greatly dishonoring God the Father, etc, cause it is limiting Him, or that One, in a way that He should not ever be considered "limited" at all ever, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

It is all of it, "all of it", only under the umbrella if "only if the Father God has willed it", or "has already willed" (or predestinated) "it" only always...

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I'm sorry, but I don't know what you're saying here.

Otherwise your saying there are other things or other wills that are stronger than His (God's) and that are outside of His (God's) power and/or control, and/or ability to reign in or control, etc...

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I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that God makes us responsible to put our faith in Christ. Christ did all the hard work of being sinless and sacrificing Himself for our sins. We can't do that for ourselves. But, we are responsible to believe in Him.

Not to mention, as has already been mentioned a lot already, over and over again, etc, not to mention that, we are also, in some small way or ways, our own saviors to a lesser or greater degree or another if it is in any way based on "us", etc, or what we do or don't do, or choose or don't choose, etc, which makes our wills stronger than God's, and is also "also" a "grace and/or faith plus works" mixture also, etc...

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Where does scripture teach this? I'm not going to be convinced by your opinions. Show me the scripture to back up what you're saying, please.

Everything Jesus and/or the apostles said and or told us to choose or not choose, or else do or not do, etc, (choose, etc), was always, "always" always only under the guise or umbrella always of only if God the Father has already chosen it to be or not be or ever already be or become so at all ever, etc, "at all" "ever", etc, and we would all do very, very well to not ever forget that, etc...

Cause to forget that is greatly dishonoring God the Father, etc, cause it is limiting Him, or that One, in a way that He should not ever be considered "limited" at all ever, etc...

God Bless!

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Do you believe that you are not responsible for anything and that God does it all for you? If so, where does scripture teach that?

Spiritual Jew said:

I understand that God can turn what people intend for evil into good. God certainly knew what was going to happen and He allowed it for His purpose.

But that doesn't mean He wanted so many of them to reject Christ. Just read Matthew 23 if you think it was God's plan for such a high percentage of them to reject Christ. It's one thing to believe that God intended for His Son to be made a sacrifice, but it's another thing entirely to think that God planned for a vast majority of the Jews to reject Christ. If that was His plan and what He wanted, then how could the following passage make any sense:

Matthew 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

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Because the Father was not always the Son, and the Son was not always equal to the Father, and it was the Son saying that when He was not as yet complete into being totally and completely equal to the Father yet, etc...

Cause if you know that, then it all makes perfect sense, etc...

Notice I said "it all" (makes or starts to make) "perfect sense" anyway, "it all", etc...

And once you have that, then you need a certain kind of revelation of or about God in the OT, and His relation to the Father, and then now the Son now also, etc...

Then the "whole picture" starts to become "complete", etc...

"Starts to" anyway, for those who have "ears to hear or eyes to see" anyway, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

Because the Father was not always the Son, and the Son was not always equal to the Father, and it was the Son saying that when He was not as yet complete into being totally and completely equal to the Father yet, etc...

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You lost me here. How does what you're saying there line up with what is taught here:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Cause if you know that, then it all makes perfect sense, etc...

Notice I said "it all" (makes or starts to make) "perfect sense" anyway, "it all", etc...

And once you have that, then you need a certain kind of revelation of or about God in the OT, and His relation to the Father, and then now the Son now also, etc...

Then the "whole picture" starts to become "complete", etc...

Starts to anyway, for those who have "ears to hear or eyes to see" anyway, etc...

God Bless!

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I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're trying to say here. So, can you please try to clarify what you're trying to say?

Spiritual Jew said:

You lost me here. How does what you're saying there line up with what is taught here:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're trying to say here. So, can you please try to clarify what you're trying to say?

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It's really quite simple, being "One" with God in the beginning, all things being made through Him (Jesus) and by Him (Jesus) (by the Father working in and through Him (Jesus), etc) does not mean "always equal to", etc, or even "always starting out as exactly in every single way equal to", etc...

Cause that only really truly happened at, or only after, His (Jesus), experience as man here that only became fully complete on or at or after the cross, etc...

Then you need the revelation about God in and of the OT, like I said, etc...

For in the begininng was the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, etc...

God Bless!

Spiritual Jew said:

If that was His plan and what He wanted,

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"plan", yes

"wanted", no

I offer I understand what you have explained, that the work of believing was what the Jews needed to do.

But I consider Philippians 2:13 with 2 Corinthians 3:4-5, which to me indicate how only God has true sufficiency . . . of His grace . . . to change someone to truly will to believe the way He means. So, it is not a matter of fairness, but how only God is good, as Jesus has said. Humans do not have the goodness to get themselves to do what is so good.

Spiritual Jew said:

This right here illustrates how terrible Calvinism really is. What you said here means that every rape, murder, incestuous act, act of child molestation and other wicked behavior was all God's plan and what He wanted to happen. John said "God is love" (1 John 4:8). And you're saying a God of love planned all the murders, rapes, child molestations and all other wicked behavior? Your "God" is not my God. You serve an entirely different "God" than I do. May the real God have mercy on your soul for the way your horribly misrepresent Him.

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"What He wanted to happen?" Define "want", as applies to God. God doesn't "need" like we do, to "want" like we do. You anthropomorphize him to be your kind of weakling, and to answer to your kind of judgement --to fit your notion of love. Did Christ want to die for our sins? (It it were possible, let this cup pass")

FreeGrace2 said:

This is correct. God permits much to occur. He orders some things, but much more is simply permitted.


I reject your so-called "law". It doesn't exist in the way you think it is.

God doesn't cause sin. And no law can make Him.

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You reject the law of causality? Ooookay.

No, the law of causality does not make Him do anything. It only shows that he is the primary cause for all effects. It comes from Him. He does not come from it.

Mark Quayle said:

"What He wanted to happen?" Define "want", as applies to God. God doesn't "need" like we do, to "want" like we do. You anthropomorphize him to be your kind of weakling, and to answer to your kind of judgement --to fit your notion of love. Did Christ want to die for our sins? (It it were possible, let this cup pass")

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Don't blame me if you didn't word what you intended to say clearly. You came across as though you believe everything that happens is God's plan. Wouldn't that mean that everything happens the way He wants it to? If not, then what did you mean?

Mark Quayle said:

"What He wanted to happen?" Define "want", as applies to God. God doesn't "need" like we do, to "want" like we do. You anthropomorphize him to be your kind of weakling, and to answer to your kind of judgement --to fit your notion of love. Did Christ want to die for our sins? (It it were possible, let this cup pass")

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God had the Son and the Holy Spirit to express Himself that way, perhaps might have been the one and only way He even could express Himself that way, etc...

God Bless!

Spiritual Jew said:

Don't blame me if you didn't word what you intended to say clearly. You came across as though you believe everything that happens is God's plan. Wouldn't that mean that everything happens the way He wants it to? If not, then what did you mean?

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I object to your use of "want" --your definition in this use. You make it sound like I think Christ had these horrible things as his primary purpose --as though they were what he created for. No, that's not what he WANTS. But he does what he does because of his higher purposes, and that is more than worth it.

com7fy8 said:

"plan", yes

"wanted", no

I offer I understand what you have explained, that the work of believing was what the Jews needed to do.

But I consider Philippians 2:13 with 2 Corinthians 3:4-5, which to me indicate how only God has true sufficiency . . . of His grace . . . to change someone to truly will to believe the way He means. So, it is not a matter of fairness, but how only God is good, as Jesus has said. Humans do not have the goodness to get themselves to do what is so good.

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Would a good God punish people with eternal torment for not having faith in Christ if they were not even capable of having faith in Christ?

Spiritual Jew said:

Would a good God punish people with eternal torment for not having faith in Christ if they were not even capable of having faith in Christ?

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Would a good and just God fail to punish people for willfully opposing their own creator?

Neogaia777 said:

God had the Son and the Holy Spirit to express Himself that way, perhaps might have been the one and only way He even could express Himself that way, etc...

God Bless!

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Not sure I follow what you are saying...

Mark Quayle said:

I object to your use of "want" --your definition in this use. You make it sound like I think Christ had these horrible things as his primary purpose --as though they were what he created for. No, that's not what he WANTS. But he does what he does because of his higher purposes, and that is more than worth it.

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I can only go by what you say, so please try to be more clear. Speaking of what He wants. Do you believe He wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Tim 2:3-6, John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2) as scripture teaches?

Mark Quayle said:

Would a good and just God fail to punish people for willfully opposing their own creator?

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Obviously not. Why would you ask that question?

Now, can you answer my question instead of responding with your own question?

Mark Quayle said:

You reject the law of causality? Ooookay.

No, the law of causality does not make Him do anything. It only shows that he is the primary cause for all effects. It comes from Him. He does not come from it.

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His only cause was to initially cause or create or make, knowing how all these very, very temporary and extremely light afflictions would ultimately compare in the light of eternity, and also all His very good plans, that He also saw from the very beginning, for this creation also midway, or at least for this creation at or by or at the very end, etc...

Even all the bad will all serve a very good and divine will and plan and purpose at the end, involving a much much higher and much much greater good of an eternity at, or by, or midway, or by the very end, etc...

I think that's why all the bad is now, etc, cause it had to be for plans involving that kind of eternity, etc...

But when we finally do finally, in the end, compare all of this to "that", etc, there will simply be no comparison, etc...

And then we will all see just how truly good/loving/truly just, God really truly is in the end, etc...

There will be nothing left like it to even compare it with, etc...

God Bless!