Titus 2:11 demonstrates free will for "everyone".

Mark Quayle · Nov 16, 2020

RickReads said:
The Bible supports that God knows all things. Our ability to make limited choice is also supported in the Bible. God has a sovereign will that He will not allow to be violated but He also has a passive will that can and does get violated.

So you admit to two wills. Maybe we are getting somewhere. What do you mean by limited choice?

Mark Quayle · Nov 16, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, what or who is the First Cause of sin?

You probably hope to trap me into saying that God is then the author of sin. Your logic probably demands the one thing means the other. But no way.

As I continue to say, God uses means to accomplish his plan.

Neogaia777 · Nov 16, 2020

All the wills are under the "umbrella" of one will, the one who predestined all other wills, and who wove together, or has already worked them all together, to all fit and work together, from before the beginning of time, or this universe, or from before the beginning of all or anything else, anything that might not have always been Him, or always started out from the very beginning always being always equal to Him in all ways always, etc...

Peace,

God Bless!

Mark Quayle · Nov 16, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, now the question is this: what did God "choose", specifically? That needs to be defined before we can proceed.

There is no thing that can happen that God did not plan to happen. Law of causality (logic) demands it, unless your notion of God is a small god who must bow to higher causes and rules than himself.

Mark Quayle · Nov 16, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
It's God's choice in that case, not man's. Everyone can see that but you, apparently.

So, you are okay with God creating robots (with souls) who never get any chance to be saved and are destined to be punished with everlasting torment from birth. You're cool with that, right? That is your understanding of the God who is love (1 John 4:8)?

No, your statement is not at all how I put it. To avoid simply calling "strawman", I will point out your use of terminology. The first thing to jump out at me is your "You are ok with God creating robots...who never get any chance to...". No, I'm not the one calling them robots --you are. What I was saying is that being a robot is better than being forever enslaved to the sin nature (which is what we all are apart from the grace of God), because at enmity with God, we would never choose God. I'm ok with YOU calling it "robots". Also, there is no such thing as "chance", which notion your statement depends on. In your use of it, you elevate man past decision and blame, I do not. Man indeed decides continually in opposition to God, until God changes him. The dead cannot suddenly decide to become alive.

The bald assertion, though, that if God decides something, man does not, is logically weak. All things are caused, according to our law of causality. Man does choose between what he considers possibles, options, whatever. God having decided from ages past, and having caused all influences, causes man to choose as he does. ("The heart of the King is in the hand of the Lord. He directs it like a watercourse to whatever ends he chooses.") It is you who deny it is man's choice, when God chooses. God's choice is not known by the man who chooses, so it is indeed choice, whether caused or not. Do you deny the law of causality?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 16, 2020

Hammster said:
If we were talking about then, that would be fine. But this discussion pertains to us after the fall.

The point remains; Lucifer and Adam both rebelled and that without a sin nature.

So don't keep blaming the sin nature for bad choices.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 16, 2020

nolidad said:
billions of china men and Africans throughout the generations would disagree. There are still lands where the gospel has never been heard even once!

The key is found in Rom 1:19-21. Through creation, God has revealed His existence and divine power, so that no one has any excuse for not giving thanks to Him.

Anyone who realizes from creation that there is a Creator, and wants to know Him, like Cornelius the Centurion, will be given more information.

No one has any excuse.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 16, 2020

nolidad said:
Correct! however these statements have nothing to do with whether an unsaved man can of his own free will accept or reject christ or if one is predestined or not!

The Bible never says that an unsaved man cannot believe the gospel when he hears it.

Rom 10:9-13 says that one must hear before they believe.

These are simply statements of fact and say nothing about the hows they accept or reject.

If you believe that regeneration is required in order for a person to believe the gospel, where is that found/taught in the Bible?

But how can an unsaved person who is dead in tehir trespasses and sins choose God?

Calvinists make the mistake of equating spiritual death with physical death. Spiritual death is separation from God. It doesn't mean they can't hear, respond and believe.

Romans 8:7-8
King James Version

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The same writer (Paul) also said that those in their own nature CANNOT PLEASE God. choosing to accept Christ we know is something that definitely pleases God- so how can they do that in light of this passage????

Also:

1 Corinthians 2:13-14
King James Version
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Also:

Romans 7:18
King James Version

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The unsaved man doesn't even receive the things of God- and cannot please God and has nothing good in him by which to make a good choice?

Where is free will in that?

Free will isn't "in" anything. Free will is opportunity of choice.

Let's stay with Romans.

10-
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

There's all the free will you're not looking for.

Hammster · Nov 16, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
The point remains; Lucifer and Adam both rebelled and that without a sin nature.

So don't keep blaming the sin nature for bad choices.

I’m not. Scripture does.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 16, 2020

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I never even suggested that free will is found in every verse of the Bible, did I.

Do you really think this verse teaches that God is the root Cause of man's sin?? I sure don't.

Rather, God created humanity with the opportunity to rebel. Which he did. So, it was the opportunity that allowed humanity to err from His ways.

If you think this is a straight up proof text that God causes man's sins, I think you've got a real problem with biblical understanding.

And such thinking leads directly to puppetry theology or robotic theology. Take your pick.

martymonster said:
So, what you are saying is, the Bible contradicts itself.

That would be absurd and ridiculous. I've said no such thing. You just demonstrated a failure to understand my words.

In that verse I posted, God flat out says that He is responsible, but you are contradicting him. Well, good luck with that one.

So then, it seems you ARE arguing that God is the First Cause of sin. Is that right?

FreeGrace2 · Nov 16, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
We are slaves to sin, or slaves to Christ.

Paul was very clear that it is a choice of who to be a slave to in Romans 6. And the choice is dynamic. It's not a one time king of deal.

Example: King David. For most of his life, he chose to follow Christ. However, when he raped and murdered to cover up the rape, he chose to follow sin.

Furthermore, as we have been saying all along, God determines all things, whatsoever comes to pass. That includes our choices.

The proper meaning of "determines" is found in His omniscience. He knows all things.

But Calvinists pervert the word to mean "causes". To "determine" is to "understand". And from His omiscience, He certainly understands everything that will come to pass.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 16, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Logically, just saying, God's omniscience includes all future events. Yet, unless you are an Open Theist, who believes God can't know something that hasn't happened yet, you will agree that God created, knowing everything in advance, yet created anyway.

Of course.

The law of causality demands then, that God caused it all, and that, in every particular, and I repeat, knowing every particular.

And just who enforces this so-called "law"? Because God created everything DOESN'T MEAN the independent actions of what/who He created came from God. That is absurd on its face.

Gun manufacturers make guns. Guns are used by people to kill people. But, your twisted logic would have the gun manufacturers be responsible as the cause of all such murders. Nonsense.

The cause of murder is found to be in the heart, as the Bible notes in matt 5.

Yes, God created the heart of man. But man himself rebelled and corrupted himself.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 16, 2020

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
OK, what or who is the First Cause of sin?

Mark Quayle said:
You probably hope to trap me into saying that God is then the author of sin. Your logic probably demands the one thing means the other. But no way.

Ha. EVERY way. You're just denying the obvious with your theology.

If God is the "First Cause" of everything, you HAVE TO include sin. So wherther you like it or not, your theology has God being the Source of sin.

As I continue to say, God uses means to accomplish his plan.

God caused neither Lucifer or Adam/woman to sin. They did that all by themselves.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 16, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
No, your statement is not at all how I put it. To avoid simply calling "strawman", I will point out your use of terminology. The first thing to jump out at me is your "You are ok with God creating robots...who never get any chance to...". No, I'm not the one calling them robots --you are. What I was saying is that being a robot is better than being forever enslaved to the sin nature (which is what we all are apart from the grace of God), because at enmity with God, we would never choose God. I'm ok with YOU calling it "robots". Also, there is no such thing as "chance", which notion your statement depends on. In your use of it, you elevate man past decision and blame, I do not. Man indeed decides continually in opposition to God, until God changes him. The dead cannot suddenly decide to become alive.

What other "choice" does man have but to oppose God then? If he has no other "choice" but to oppose God unless God basically makes him not oppose God anymore, then what kind of "choice" is that? That is the question that you have been unwilling to answer.

Can you tell me why exactly the people Paul talks about in the following passage have no excuse for not being thankful to God and not glorifying Him as God? And can you tell me why God gets angry with people for their "godlessness and wickedness" if they can't help but to behave that way?

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Calvinism gives people an excuse for their wickedness and their refusal to glorify God and give thanks to Him. That excuse is what Calvinists call total depravity which says people are born with darkened hearts, born with futile thoughts and born as fools who don't know God. But Paul said otherwise.

Paul taught here that people are not born with total depravity (totally wicked), but rather they know God because it is made plain to everyone due to what God has made. They BECOME futile in their thinking and they BECOME fools when they exchange "the truth about God for a lie". Calvinism completely contradicts everything that Paul wrote in this passage.

The bald assertion, though, that if God decides something, man does not, is logically weak.

What is weak is to try to suggest that man would have any choice in the matter if man cannot go against whatever God chooses, as you believe.

All things are caused, according to our law of causality. Man does choose between what he considers possibles, options, whatever. God having decided from ages past, and having caused all influences, causes man to choose as he does. ("The heart of the King is in the hand of the Lord. He directs it like a watercourse to whatever ends he chooses.") It is you who deny it is man's choice, when God chooses. God's choice is not known by the man who chooses, so it is indeed choice, whether caused or not. Do you deny the law of causality?

I deny your false doctrine. I deny that man would have a "choice" if it was true that man's "choice" depended entirely on God's choice.

RickReads · Nov 16, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
So you admit to two wills. Maybe we are getting somewhere. What do you mean by limited choice?

Then maybe we can quit fussing about Calvin for a bit. I`m tired of that guy. LOL! I think the term free will is a farce so I get a little irritable when somebody disputes with me about it.

Living on the earth we all have limited choices so no free will as free will is usually defined. We do have the freedom to make choices based on our environment. Choices have consequences, Choices definitely get interfered with. Nevertheless, we are able to use the power of our will to make choices.

It might be a choice between 100 different sins. But we still are making choices with our own will and we will be held responsible for those choices.

Note: I did not address the issue of salvation as a choice.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 16, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
There is no thing that can happen that God did not plan to happen.

This is correct. God permits much to occur. He orders some things, but much more is simply permitted.

Law of causality (logic) demands it, unless your notion of God is a small god who must bow to higher causes and rules than himself.

I reject your so-called "law". It doesn't exist in the way you think it is.

God doesn't cause sin. And no law can make Him.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 16, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
There is no thing that can happen that God did not plan to happen. Law of causality (logic) demands it, unless your notion of God is a small god who must bow to higher causes and rules than himself.

This right here illustrates how terrible Calvinism really is. What you said here means that every rape, murder, incestuous act, act of child molestation and other wicked behavior was all God's plan and what He wanted to happen. John said "God is love" (1 John 4:8). And you're saying a God of love planned all the murders, rapes, child molestations and all other wicked behavior? Your "God" is not my God. You serve an entirely different "God" than I do. May the real God have mercy on your soul for the way your horribly misrepresent Him.

com7fy8 · Nov 16, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appears and offers salvation to everyone.

OK, Calvinists, please explain how this verse doesn't demonstrate free will.

Well, it may not be meant to even deal with the subject of free will. It is talking about how God's grace has appeared. And His grace is for everyone.

This does not directly say one way or the other, about if a person has one's own free will capability to choose about receiving the gift.

You said:
Why in the world would a gift be offered to anyone that doesn't have the ability to receive it?

Well, you can offer a gift to a baby, for when the baby becomes able to receive it, of course.

And Jesus can offer a gift, and then give the person the ability to receive it.

Jesus says,

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (in John 6:29)

I see that this means God works in a person so he or she believes. Plus, we have >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

From this, I see how God desires for a person to be receptive . . . willing > and so God works in the person's will causing him or her to become willing, receptive. So, the receptivity is also a gift . . . of God's grace working in the person.

And John the Baptist says,

"A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven." (in John 3:27)

I see this can mean one needs to receive from heaven the ability to receive all God has for us.

com7fy8 · Nov 16, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
There is no thing that can happen that God did not plan to happen. Law of causality (logic) demands it, unless your notion of God is a small god who must bow to higher causes and rules than himself.

Spiritual Jew said:
This right here illustrates how terrible Calvinism really is. What you said here means that every rape, murder, incestuous act, act of child molestation and other wicked behavior was all God's plan and what He wanted to happen. John said "God is love" (1 John 4:8). And you're saying a God of love planned all the murders, rapes, child molestations and all other wicked behavior? Your "God" is not my God. You serve an entirely different "God" than I do. May the real God have mercy on your soul for the way your horribly misrepresent Him.

I see it can mean God is in control, but it does not have to mean He wants the bad stuff.

For example, He did not want Joseph's brothers to hate Joseph and sell him into slavery > Genesis 37-50. But it was in His plan, but with the good end which He brought about. He wanted the overall result, which came by using what was not wanted, but usable.

Our Father did not want evil people to hate and crucify Christ. But He planned that and had control of that. And then He used it all for His good, and still is doing so. And Jesus came out with more and better than all He lost on Calvary.

So - - @FreeGrace2 > how really do humans have free will if things they do are all in God's plan . . . being used to bring His result which He has chosen, and not necessarily what they have knowingly chosen? ? God brings people to better than what they were choosing.

Plus, "God resists the proud" > in James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5 > to me, this shows how God does not honor a proud human's will.

Neogaia777 · Nov 16, 2020

Peace,

God Bless!

Titus 2:11 demonstrates free will for "everyone".

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Old Soul

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Psalm 144:1

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Old Soul

Similar threads