Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

Spiritual Jew said:

This goes along with what Rev 20 says. Jesus said that anyone who believes in Him will live (Greek: zaō) and never die. In Rev 20:14 it says that the souls John saw in heaven live (Greek: zao) and reign with Christ. Why? Because they have spiritually had part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection. You don't have to be physically resurrected (Greek: anastasis) in order to live (Greek: zao) and reign with Christ. This is what premil misses.

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They are not in Heaven. That is what Amil misses. They reign on earth in Jerusalem.

"and they came up over the breadth of the Land and surrounded the camp of God’s people and the city he loves."

God's people in Jerusalem are the one's resurrected in verse 4. Verse 4 is the beginning of the 1000 years. Verse 9 is at the end of the 1000 years. Still the same people who lived the whole 1000 years. John gives us no indication he has changed the narrative at all.

Spiritual Jew said:

Another point I want to make regarding John 11:24 is that the bodily resurrection of the dead will occur "at the last day". Premil has the bodily resurrection of believers occurring before the last day which contradicts what scripture teaches.

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This last day is the Cross. Jesus is still in the OT narrative, because the Cross was still future. This is the last day in Abraham's bosom. No more Abraham's bosom existed after the Cross. All the OT church was resurrected and ascended to Paradise. Abraham's bosom will not be emptied out like Death and sheol at the GWT. Those in Abraham's bosom are the firstfruits of Christ's resurrection. Matthew said many bodies came out, not many souls. David claims his body will not see corruption, but raised (on the last day). He included himself in the prophecy about Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Jew said:

They do not have to wait until their bodily resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over them. The second death has no power at all over the souls who are in heaven now or over any souls who will be in heaven in the future. This is what you're missing.

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The separation of the sheep and goats sends NO ONE to heaven. These sheep are not in Christ, they are not redeemed. They are chosen for one purpose and one purpose only. They have eternal life and live on earth forever. The first 1000 years and then into the New Earth. They are not in Christ, they are with Christ. They are the firstfruits of those now born without an Adamic body, but they have an incorruptible body without sin and death by sin. They literally have no choice in the matter. They are not glorified, because they populate the earth with humans in incorruptible bodies. Instead of creating a new son of God, these humans died as Adam's descendants, but were resurrected to populate earth. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the current state of affairs over the last 5990 years. It is a new Day, and this Day belongs to God and God alone.

The moment the sheep and goats are separated sends them to either eternal life on earth or eternal life in Death. It is rather simple. Death still has to wait for the GWT to be sent to the lake of fire. Eternal life still has to wait, on earth for the same period of time, for the New Earth.

Timtofly said:

The separation of the sheep and goats sends NO ONE to heaven. These sheep are not in Christ, they are not redeemed. They are chosen for one purpose and one purpose only. They have eternal life and live on earth forever. The first 1000 years and then into the New Earth. They are not in Christ, they are with Christ. They are the firstfruits of those now born without an Adamic body, but they have an incorruptible body without sin and death by sin. They literally have no choice in the matter. They are not glorified, because they populate the earth with humans in incorruptible bodies. Instead of creating a new son of God, these humans died as Adam's descendants, but were resurrected to populate earth. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the current state of affairs over the last 5990 years. It is a new Day, and this Day belongs to God and God alone.

The moment the sheep and goats are separated sends them to either eternal life on earth or eternal life in Death. It is rather simple. Death still has to wait for the GWT to be sent to the lake of fire. Eternal life still has to wait, on earth for the same period of time, for the New Earth.

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Where do you get this from? It is definitely not Scripture.

Let us establish a few absolutes about this familiar passage:

(1) This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(3) These are both judged at His appearing.
(4) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(5) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(6) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(7) The good receive eternal life.
(8) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(9) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

What happens to the righteous when Jesus appears? What happens to the wicked when He appears? In Matthew 25:33 Christ (the king) sets “the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” He then sentences them, and eternally separates them. The sheep are the believers, the goats are the unbelievers. Jesus confirms this in this final sentencing of all mankind in Matthew 25:34, 41&46, declaring: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.

This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.

Spiritual Jew said:

Okay, so in terms of the ones who were not apostate and remained faithful to the end, their souls go to be in heaven when they die, right (absent from the body, present with the Lord)? So, at the point when a saved person dies and their soul goes to be in heaven, does the second death have power over them at that point? No, right?

So, my point then is why do you act as if it's not until their bodily resurrection that the second death no longer has power over them when the fact of the matter is that the second death already no longer has power over them when they are physically dead and their souls are in heaven?

Does it have power over them now? No, it does not because they are already guaranteed that they will inherit eternal bodily life when Christ returns and will never suffer the second death. This is what you're missing.

Does the second death have any power over them now? No. This is what you're missing.

They do not have to wait until their bodily resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over them. The second death has no power at all over the souls who are in heaven now or over any souls who will be in heaven in the future. This is what you're missing.

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God sees each and every human being in terms of two humans: the first Adam and the last Adam. Everyone except Christ, the last Adam, was born of the flesh into the first Adam, and some are born of the Spirit into the last Adam.

For us, the resurrection of the body (soma) is to physical death what being born of the Spirit of Christ is to the soul. We are not born physically of the Spirit of Christ, but the dead body of all those who are IN CHRIST through spiritual birth will be resurrected in Christ and with His resurrection, because He is the last Adam, whose body died, and who rose again physically.

The separation of the body and the soul of Adam (death) is an enemy to God.

The 2nd death relates as much to the resurrected body as the resurrection relates to the dead body. The word "resurrection" in the New Testament relates only to the dead body, not to the spirit.

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed [ nâphach ] into his nostrils the breath [ neshâmâh ] of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]."

Adam died spiritually, and then physically. All his descendants are born with the same death in them until they are born of the Spirit:

John 3:7
"That which is born (γεννάω [gennáō]) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born (γεννάω gennáō) of the Spirit ( πνεῦμα [pneûma] ) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born (Greek: γεννάω [gennáō]) from above (Greek: ἄνωθεν [ánōthen])."

All will experience the resurrection of the dead body at the GWT - death and hades will deliver up the dead in them. All whose names are not in the Lamb's Book of Life will experience the 2nd death. Their names will not be in the Lamb's book of Life because they had never been spiritually born from above ("born again") of the Spirit of God and were never found in Christ.

The 2nd death relates as much to the resurrected body as the resurrection relates to the dead body.

Obviously, those who died in Christ will not experience the second death, because once they have experienced the resurrection of their dead bodies, they will never die again - their names are in the Lamb's book of Life.

The separation of the body and the soul of Adam (death) is an enemy to God.

@Spiritual Jew I edited this after first posting it because it needed more to be said.

Spiritual Jew said:

You lost me here, which means most likely anything you say after this isn't going to make any sense to me.

We agree that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection unto bodily immortality, right? To me, His resurrection ALONE is the first resurrection. But, Paul says there is an order to the resurrections unto bodily immortality. It's Christ's the firstfruits as the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection). That's it. Paul indicates that there is an order (each in turn) to the resurrections unto bodily immortality.

Again, Christ's was the first in order and that obviously occurred long ago already. Next in turn to be resurrected unto bodily immortality are "those who belong to Him" which occurs "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:22-23).

Clearly, the next resurrection in turn unto bodily immortality is not the first resurrection because that has already happened long ago. So, the mass resurrection of the dead in Christ unto bodily immortality that will occur at His second coming is the SECOND resurrection unto bodily immortality.

Calling that the first resurrection does not line up with what Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:22-23. A first resurrection unto bodily immortality implies a second, but despite that, you deny that there is a second resurrection unto bodily immortality.

Another point I'd like to make is regarding the passage you brought up, John 11:23-25. You pointed out the reference to Christ's resurrection in the passage, but there's other things from that passage that we should notice.

John 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

First, notice that Jesus says that the one who believes in Him will be alive even when they are dead and the one who believes in Him will never die. What does that mean?

I believe it means that those of us who believe in Him have been made spiritually alive after being dead in sins (Eph 2:1-6, John 5:24-25) and if we believe in Him until we physically die then our souls go to be with Him in heaven. Our souls don't die and will never die.

He clearly was not saying that those who believe in Him will never physically die since we all do, so that's why it has to be that He was saying those who believe in Him will be made alive spiritually and will never die (of course, with the understanding that they continue to believe in Him until their physical death).

This goes along with what Rev 20 says. Jesus said that anyone who believes in Him will live (Greek: zaō) and never die. In Rev 20:14 it says that the souls John saw in heaven live (Greek: zao) and reign with Christ. Why? Because they have spiritually had part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection. You don't have to be physically resurrected (Greek: anastasis) in order to live (Greek: zao) and reign with Christ. This is what premil misses.

Another point I want to make regarding John 11:24 is that the bodily resurrection of the dead will occur "at the last day". Premil has the bodily resurrection of believers occurring before the last day which contradicts what scripture teaches.

The last day is the same day that unbelievers are judged:

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

We know that unbelievers will be condemned on judgement day AFTER the thousand years (Rev 20:11-15). Scripture teaches that believers will be raised from the dead on that same day. This is just another in a long list of problems that premils cannot reconcile with their view.

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See my reply to your other post in my post #185.

1. The separation of the body and the soul of Adam (death) is an enemy to God.

2. God sees each and every human being in terms of two humans: the first Adam and the last Adam. Everyone except Christ, the last Adam, was born of the flesh into the first Adam, and some are born of the Spirit into the last Adam.

3. The physical death that came to Adam (the first Adam) is the physical death that came to us. The resurrection from the dead that came to Adam (the last Adam) is the resurrection that comes first to those who are born of the Spirit of God who is the Father of (the last) Adam, who is in those who believe in Him, who are in Him through being born of His Spirit and having His Spirit indwell them.

4. The word "resurrection" in the New Testament relates only to the dead body, not to spirit. The word "birth" relates to spirit.

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed [ nâphach ] into his nostrils the breath [ neshâmâh ] of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]."

Adam died spiritually, and then physically. All his descendants are born with the same death in them until they are born of the Spirit:

John 3:7
"That which is born (γεννάω [gennáō]) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born (γεννάω gennáō) of the Spirit ( πνεῦμα [pneûma] ) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born (Greek: γεννάω [gennáō]) from above (Greek: ἄνωθεν [ánōthen])."

5. The 2nd death relates as much to the resurrected body as the resurrection relates to the dead body.

6. All will experience the resurrection of the dead body at the GWT - death and hades will deliver up the dead in them. All whose names are not in the Lamb's Book of Life will experience the 2nd death. Their names will not be in the Lamb's book of Life because they had never been spiritually born from above ("born again") of the Spirit of God, and were never found in Christ.

7. Obviously, those who died in Christ will not experience the second death, because once they have experienced the resurrection of their dead bodies, they will never die again - their names are in the Lamb's book of Life.

@Spiritual Jew I added point 8 below:

8. Our turn for the resurrection may be still coming but it's still part of Adam's resurrection from death - it's still part of the 1st resurrection.

The separation of the body and the soul of Adam (death) is an enemy to God.

sovereigngrace said:

This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.

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This is your opinion. What I posted in my post was the same thing you posted up to this point. You did a better job than me, but that is beside the point.

Can you tell me how sinless perfection works? A saved sinner is still a sinner in this flesh. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sorry but there is only one group of physical humans, wicked sinners. Our righteousness is but filthy rags to God. The point about the sheep is God did see their righteousness as more than filthy rags. As for the church, God only sees the blood of Christ, not our filthy rags righteousness. If you disagree with that point and that difference, then you reject God’s choice to pick some who have rejected the Atonement. Unless they did not reject it because in today's society no one presented the Good News to them, to reject. 90% of so called "gospel" today, is only human theology.

Since you reject that the church has been taken out of the world, your whole view of who is righteous and who is not is skewed.

Do you think that when God and the Lamb separate the sheep and goats they are not physically here, but doing it remotely? Point 1) is the second coming. God and the Lamb are here on earth. Paul says that when Christ and God appear, that is when the rapture and bodily change happens. Why would this event be 5 to 7 years after God and the Lamb are already here? Well the amil deny any thing else happens. They reject or twist many chapters in Revelation to deny, deny, deny. Recap denial. Chronological order denial. Last day has to be the last day denial. The Lord's Day is the last day, and it is 1000 years in length. The 7th Trumpet is the last day of Adam's sinful flesh of death and decay. The 7th Trumpet is not a single blast it is an 8 day celebration. God has been patient for 6000 years of Adam, and you cannot even be patient for 7 years or at the least 8 days?

The Second Coming does happen before all the judgment. Show me one verse that shows the sheep and goats have a choice in who they are. The church is made up of those who by faith chose something they had no physical proof of. It was a choice, it was not God choosing them favorably. God's choice was expressed in coming Himself to earth and dying on the Cross. That was God choosing the whole world without prejudice. It did not save the whole world by force, nor some by election.

Is God choosing sheep without their ability to reject, election, more than those who choose salvation by faith? Can you prove their righteous works were a conscious decision that would give them the outcome of being a sheep? Because the verses clearly state they had to ask what they did, and where unaware that by doing them they would turn out being a sheep. Do you really not see the difference between the church and the sheep? The word "righteous" taken out of context is not a common denominator. Even obeying the law in righteousness did not save any one. They were not even sheep. They are dead and will have to stand at the GWT, unless they were in Abraham's bosom, and are now in Paradise.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

God sees each and every human being in terms of two humans: the first Adam and the last Adam. Everyone except Christ, the last Adam, was born of the flesh into the first Adam, and some are born of the Spirit into the last Adam.

For us, the resurrection of the body (soma) is to physical death what being born of the Spirit of Christ is to the soul. We are not born physically of the Spirit of Christ, but the dead body of all those who are IN CHRIST through spiritual birth will be resurrected in Christ and with His resurrection, because He is the last Adam, whose body died, and who rose again physically.

The separation of the body and the soul of Adam (death) is an enemy to God.

The 2nd death relates as much to the resurrected body as the resurrection relates to the dead body. The word "resurrection" in the New Testament relates only to the dead body, not to the spirit.

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed [ nâphach ] into his nostrils the breath [ neshâmâh ] of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]."

Adam died spiritually, and then physically. All his descendants are born with the same death in them until they are born of the Spirit:

John 3:7
"That which is born (γεννάω [gennáō]) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born (γεννάω gennáō) of the Spirit ( πνεῦμα [pneûma] ) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born (Greek: γεννάω [gennáō]) from above (Greek: ἄνωθεν [ánōthen])."

All will experience the resurrection of the dead body at the GWT - death and hades will deliver up the dead in them. All whose names are not in the Lamb's Book of Life will experience the 2nd death. Their names will not be in the Lamb's book of Life because they had never been spiritually born from above ("born again") of the Spirit of God and were never found in Christ.

The 2nd death relates as much to the resurrected body as the resurrection relates to the dead body.

Obviously, those who died in Christ will not experience the second death, because once they have experienced the resurrection of their dead bodies, they will never die again - their names are in the Lamb's book of Life.

The separation of the body and the soul of Adam (death) is an enemy to God.

@Spiritual Jew I edited this after first posting it because it needed more to be said.

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You did not specifically address any of the points I made and are instead just repeating your overall view and speaking past me and over me instead of to me. This is not the way I prefer to have discussions. We'll just have to agree to disagree unless you decide to specifically address the points I made in my post.

Can you please just answer this one question. Does the second death have any power right now over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven? Yes or no, please.

Spiritual Jew said:

You did not specifically address any of the points I made and are instead just repeating your overall view and speaking past me and over me instead of to me. This is not the way I prefer to have discussions. We'll just have to agree to disagree unless you decide to specifically address the points I made in my post.

Can you please just answer this one question. Does the second death have any power right now over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven? Yes or no, please.

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Point #7 in post #186.

I'm glad you don't wish to discuss this further with me because I first have to deal with your fallacious theses, and when I do, you respond this way.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Point #7 in post #186.

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Based on what you said there, that means you believe the second death no longer has power over the souls John saw in heaven and I agree with that. With that being the case, why can't it be that they have already had part in the first resurrection?

You agree that the second death already has no power over them, so that means they don't need to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them. That should make you rethink what having part in the first resurrection really means.

I'm glad you don't wish to discuss this further with me because I first have to deal with your fallacious theses, and when I do, you respond this way.

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Actually, I would like to discuss it further point by point. But, you don't respond directly to my points. Instead, you just repeat the same things over and over about what you believe without directly responding to any points I make or any questions I ask. Going back and forth with long essays doesn't do it for me. Nothing specific is being addressed that way.

Timtofly said:

Do you think that when God and the Lamb separate the sheep and goats they are not physically here, but doing it remotely? Point 1) is the second coming. God and the Lamb are here on earth. Paul says that when Christ and God appear, that is when the rapture and bodily change happens. Why would this event be 5 to 7 years after God and the Lamb are already here? Well the amil deny any thing else happens. They reject or twist many chapters in Revelation to deny, deny, deny. Recap denial. Chronological order denial. Last day has to be the last day denial. The Lord's Day is the last day, and it is 1000 years in length. The 7th Trumpet is the last day of Adam's sinful flesh of death and decay. The 7th Trumpet is not a single blast it is an 8 day celebration.

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The last trumpet is exactly that - it is the last. It is the end. It is the final trumpet. The last trumpet is a trumpet of war. The last trump ushers in complete and wholesale destruction for all those left behind.

We find the phrase “battle trumpet” in 2 Samuel 2:28, 15:10, 18:16, 20:1, 20:22. This is the trumpet that spells the end.

Numbers 10:9

And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.

Joshua 6:20

So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

Judges 7:22

And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.

Nehemiah 4:20

so wherever you hear the sound of the trumpet, come over to us, and our God will fight for us!"

Ezekiel 7:14

They have blown the trumpet, even to make all ready; but none goeth to the battle: for my wrath is upon all the multitude thereof.

Jeremiah 4:19

My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

Jeremiah 4:21

How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

Jeremiah 6:1

O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Bethhaccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction.

Jeremiah 42:14

Saying, No; but we will go into the land of Egypt, where we shall see no war, nor hear the sound of the trumpet, nor have hunger of bread; and there will we dwell:

Jeremiah 49:2

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire: then shall Israel be heir unto them that were his heirs, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:27

Set ye up a standard in the land, blow the trumpet among the nations, prepare the nations against her, call together against her the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashchenaz; appoint a captain against her; cause the horses to come up as the rough caterpillers.

Amos 2:2

But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kerioth: and Moab shall die with tumult, with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:

Zephaniah 1:16

A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

Hosea 5:8

"Sound the trumpet in Gibeah, and the alarm in Ramah. Cry out at Beth-aven Go out, Benjamin!

Zechariah 9:14

And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

God has been patient for 6000 years of Adam, and you cannot even be patient for 7 years or at the least 8 days?

The Second Coming does happen before all the judgment. Show me one verse that shows the sheep and goats have a choice in who they are. The church is made up of those who by faith chose something they had no physical proof of. It was a choice, it was not God choosing them favorably. God's choice was expressed in coming Himself to earth and dying on the Cross. That was God choosing the whole world without prejudice. It did not save the whole world by force, nor some by election.

Is God choosing sheep without their ability to reject, election, more than those who choose salvation by faith? Can you prove their righteous works were a conscious decision that would give them the outcome of being a sheep? Because the verses clearly state they had to ask what they did, and where unaware that by doing them they would turn out being a sheep. Do you really not see the difference between the church and the sheep? The word "righteous" taken out of context is not a common denominator. Even obeying the law in righteousness did not save any one. They were not even sheep. They are dead and will have to stand at the GWT, unless they were in Abraham's bosom, and are now in Paradise.

Click to expand...

The only way your beliefs can be sustained is by avoiding the evidence. I will repeat what you ducked around.

Let us establish a few absolutes about this familiar passage:

(1) This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(3) These are both judged at His appearing.
(4) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(5) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(6) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(7) The good receive eternal life.
(8) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(9) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

What happens to the righteous when Jesus appears? What happens to the wicked when He appears? In Matthew 25:33 Christ (the king) sets “the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” He then sentences them, and eternally separates them. The sheep are the believers, the goats are the unbelievers. Jesus confirms this in this final sentencing of all mankind in Matthew 25:34, 41&46, declaring: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.

This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.

Spiritual Jew said:

Actually, I would like to discuss it further point by point. But, you don't respond directly to my points. Instead, you just repeat the same things over and over about what you believe without directly responding to any points I make or any questions I ask. Going back and forth with long essays doesn't do it for me. Nothing specific is being addressed that way.

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Well you give me long essays based on the way you see things so I have to give you a long essay to say why I don't see things the way you see them.

Spiritual Jew said:

Based on what you said there, that means you believe the second death no longer has power over the souls John saw in heaven and I agree with that.

With that being the case, why can't it be that they have already had part in the first resurrection? You agree that the second death already has no power over them, so that means they don't need to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them. That should make you rethink what having part in the first resurrection really means.

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The answer to this is in my long post which you obviously never read, because you're asking a question which you would not ask if you had read that post. So let me try and answer it another way:

Why is death called the enemy of God? What is death? Is it only spiritual death, or is it physical too?

If you read each and every New Testament verse talking about "The Resurrection" (anastasis) and being raised from the dead/rising again from the dead (egeiro and anistemi) you will start to discover that each and every one of them is talking about the resurrection of the body. If you don't believe me, I've quoted not just the references, but the verses themselves here:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

God breathed His Spirit into Adam and Adam became a living soul. When Adam sinned, he died because the Spirit of God was no longer dwelling in him, and so he died physically also. He was no longer a living soul and so death came into him, and his body eventually died.

God hates death. He hates the separation of body and soul, He never purposed that for Adam. Death is the last enemy to be destroyed.

Adam = mankind. His death = the death of all of us, because we are all in him, we are all born sons of Adam.
Jesus is the last Adam, but not born of Adam but of God. He died - physically. His body was dead.
He rose again from the dead.
Death came through Adam, and it's all one and the same death. It's mankind's death.

The resurrection came by the last Adam, Christ, and it's all the same resurrection that those who are in Christ through spiritual birth will experience when He returns.

The first Adam (who we were born into) lost the life of the spirit living in him after the Spirit had breathed life into him, so Jesus said we must be born of the Spirit from above, because that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Jesus, the last Adam, is begotten of the same Spirit.

We have already been baptized into Jesus' death and been raised with Him through spiritual birth into the last Adam, because He is in us, and we in Him.

God did not save us to leave body and soul separated, The resurrection of the body is an integral part of salvation. So when you say,

Spiritual Jew said:

.. so that means they don't need to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them. That should make you rethink what having part in the first resurrection really means.

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then what you are saying is nonsensical, because just as salvation without Christ is impossible, so salvation without the resurrection of the body is totally incomplete.

There is only one death, until now - Adam's death (Adam's death = mankind's death). There is only one resurrection from the dead - it's the last Adam's resurrection from the dead, which everyone who is in Christ already shares in, but also will share in - because the separation of soul and body (death) is an integral part of Adam's (mankind's) death, and Christ came as a man to save man from this predicament.

When those who are Christ's at His coming are raised from the dead and are reunited to their bodies which have been raised spiritual bodies, this is still part of the first resurrection - because just as Adam's death is mankind's death, so mankind's only resurrection from the dead, brought about through the sacrifice of Jesus of Himself, is His resurrection. It is A MAN who brought death to all men and it is A MAN who brings the resurrection from the dead to all men.

The second death can only come after the resurrection of those who were not in Christ, whose names were never written in the Lamb's book of Life.

Those who sleep in Christ wlll be raised first and the second death will have no power over them.

Please don't say I never answered your question. If you do, I definitely won't answer you again.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Well you give me long essays based on the way you see things so I have to give you a long essay to say why I don't see things the way you see them.

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I'm tired of your long essays. Let's try to take things one point at a time. Or maybe 2 or 3. But not 10. I think that would be better.

The answer to this is in my long post which you obviously never read, because you're asking a question which you would not ask if you had read that post.

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Actually, I did read it but I could not follow what you were saying. It did not make sense to me. It happens. We clearly do not see some things the same, so we're not always going to understand each other.

So let me try and answer it another way:

Why is death called the enemy of God? What is death? Is it only spiritual death, or is it physical too?

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Obviously, there is both.

If you read each and every New Testament verse talking about "The Resurrection" (anastasis) and being raised from the dead/rising again from the dead (egeiro and anistemi) you will start to discover that each and every one of them is talking about the resurrection of the body.

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Yes, I get that. And, if you would have paid attention to what I've been saying you would already know that I believe the reference to "the first resurrection" itself is a reference to Christ's bodily resurrection. Please tell me that you read this and understand this or else we will not get anywhere in this discussion.

If you don't believe me, I've quoted not just the references, but the verses themselves here:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

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I'm not denying this and never have, so let's move on from this point since we agree on this in relation to how that term is used.

G

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od breathed His Spirit into Adam and Adam became a living soul. When Adam sinned, he died because the Spirit of God was no longer dwelling in him, and so he died physically also. He was no longer a living soul and so death came into him, and his body eventually died.

God hates death. He hates the separation of body and soul, He never purposed that for Adam. Death is the last enemy to be destroyed.

Adam = mankind. His death = the death of all of us, because we are all in him, we are all born sons of Adam.
Jesus is the last Adam, but not born of Adam but of God. He died - physically. His body was dead.
He rose again from the dead.
Death came through Adam, and it's all one and the same death. It's mankind's death.

Click to expand...

You use so many words to state the obvious. Yes, I know Adam and Jesus both physically dead and we all know this. Please stop wasting time with stating the obvious. That would be very helpful.

The resurrection came by the last Adam, Christ, and it's all the same resurrection that those who are in Christ through spiritual birth will experience when He returns.

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Another obvious statement. This is boring. But, I'm reading all of your words to make an honest attempt to see your point. It would be so much easier if you left the obvious stuff out, though. Tell me something that we don't all already know.

The first Adam (who we were born into) lost the life of the spirit living in him after the Spirit had breathed life into him, so Jesus said we must be born of the Spirit from above, because that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Jesus, the last Adam, is begotten of the same Spirit.

We have already been baptized into Jesus' death and been raised with Him through spiritual birth into the last Adam, because He is in us, and we in Him.

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To me, that is how we have part in the first resurrection. In my view being spiritually raised with Him does not have to be described with the same word used to describe a bodily resurrection because I believe having part in the first resurrection has to do with spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection and His resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20).

God did not save us to leave body and soul separated, The resurrection of the body is an integral part of salvation. So when you say,

Spiritual Jew said:

so that means they don't need to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them. That should make you rethink what having part in the first resurrection really means.

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then what you are saying is nonsensical, because just as salvation with Christ is impossible, so salvation without the resurrection of the body is totally incomplete.

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It's not nonsensical at all. What is nonsensical is to think that it can't be said that the second death has no power over someone until they've been bodily resurrected. Did you not already acknowledge that the second death does not have power over the souls in heaven right now? Are they not already guaranteed to have their bodies resurrected and changed unto bodily immortality in the future when Christ returns at the last trumpet? Of course they are.

There is only one death, until now - Adam's death (Adam's death = mankind's death). There is only one resurrection from the dead - it's the last Adam's resurrection from the dead, which everyone who is in Christ already shares in, but also will share in - because the separation of soul and body (death) is an integral part of Adam's (mankind's) death, and Christ came as a man to save man from this predicament.

When those who are Christ's at His coming are raised from the dead and are reunited to their bodies which have been raised spiritual bodies, this is still part of the first resurrection - because just as Adam's death is mankind's death, so mankind's only resurrection from the dead, brought about through the sacrifice of Jesus of Himself, is His resurrection. It is A MAN who brought death to all men and it is A MAN who brings the resurrection from the dead to all men.

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I don't see how what you're saying here agrees with what Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:20-23 which is that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection and he said that there is an order to the resurrections unto bodily immortality. Christ's was first and next in turn are those who are His at His coming. So, the resurrection of those who are His at His coming are not part of the first resurrection as Christ's resurrection alone was the first resurrection.

The second death can only come after the resurrection of those who were not in Christ, whose names were never written in the Lamb's book of Life.

Those who sleep in Christ wlll be raised first and the second death will have no power over them.

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The second death has no power over them now. Again, did you not already acknowledge that? Yet here you are acting as if that is not the case until they are bodily resurrected. So, do you really believe that the second death has no power over the souls who are in heaven now or not?

Please don't say I never answered your question. If you do, I definitely won't answer you again.

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You did answer it and I thank you for that. But you could have answered it in a much more succinct way. You say a lot of things that are obvious and don't need to be said. But, that's your style. So be it.

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm tired of your long essays. Let's try to take things one point at a time. Or maybe 2 or 3. But not 10. I think that would be better.

Actually, I did read it but I could not follow what you were saying. It did not make sense to me. It happens. We clearly do not see some things the same, so we're not always going to understand each other.

Obviously, there is both.

Yes, I get that. And, if you would have paid attention to what I've been saying you would already know that I believe the reference to "the first resurrection" itself is a reference to Christ's bodily resurrection. Please tell me that you read this and understand this or else we will not get anywhere in this discussion.

I'm not denying this and never have, so let's move on from this point since we agree on this in relation to how that term is used.

You use so many words to state the obvious. Yes, I know Adam and Jesus both physically dead and we all know this. Please stop wasting time with stating the obvious. That would be very helpful.

Another obvious statement. This is boring. But, I'm reading all of your words to make an honest attempt to see your point. It would be so much easier if you left the obvious stuff out, though. Tell me something that we don't all already know.

To me, that is how we have part in the first resurrection. In my view being spiritually raised with Him does not have to be described with the same word used to describe a bodily resurrection because I believe having part in the first resurrection has to do with spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection and His resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20).

It's not nonsensical at all. What is nonsensical is to think that it can't be said that the second death has no power over someone until they've been bodily resurrected. Did you not already acknowledge that the second death does not have power over the souls in heaven right now? Are they not already guaranteed to have their bodies resurrected and changed unto bodily immortality in the future when Christ returns at the last trumpet? Of course they are.

I don't see how what you're saying here agrees with what Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:20-23 which is that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection and he said that there is an order to the resurrections unto bodily immortality. Christ's was first and next in turn are those who are His at His coming. So, the resurrection of those who are His at His coming are not part of the first resurrection as Christ's resurrection alone was the first resurrection.

The second death has no power over them now. Again, did you not already acknowledge that? Yet here you are acting as if that is not the case until they are bodily resurrected. So, do you really believe that the second death has no power over the souls who are in heaven now or not?

You did answer it and I thank you for that. But you could have answered it in a much more succinct way. You say a lot of things that are obvious and don't need to be said. But, that's your style. So be it.

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Confuscious say, "Deaph = sepalation of soul and body. Affer soul reunited wit body in resullection, dying again = 2nd deaph, tlice dead".

That's THE BIBLE'S theology regarding death, resurrection from death, and the 2nd death - and it never came from confuscious. Your confuscion comes from your notion of what the 2nd death is.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Confuscious say, "Deaph = sepalation of soul and body. Affer soul reunited wit body in resullection, dying again = 2nd deaph, tlice dead".

That's THE BIBLE'S theology regarding death, resurrection from death, and the 2nd death - and it never came from confuscious. Your confuscion comes from your notion of what the 2nd death is.

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This was one of the most ridiculous responses I've seen from you and that's saying something. Where did you get the idea that I don't know what the second death is? Show me exactly what I said to give you that impression.

The second death occurs on the day of judgment when those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15, Rev 21:8). It will result in them being "shut out from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thess 1:9) forever while experiencing eternal torment (Rev 20:10).

Is there anything I said above about the second death that you find to be confusing?

Spiritual Jew said:

This was one of the most ridiculous responses I've seen from you and that's saying something. Where did you get the idea that I don't know what the second death is? Show me exactly what I said to give you that impression.

The second death occurs on the day of judgment when those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15, Rev 21:8). It will result in them being "shut out from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thess 1:9) forever while experiencing eternal torment (Rev 20:10).

Is there anything I said above about the second death that you find to be confusing?

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You said you agreed with what I said in my post, yet your posts often argue against what I have said in my posts, and my posts are always saying the same thing.

And you say I'm confusing. At least I'm always saying the same things. If you say you agree with what I said then why are you arguing against what I said? Those who died in Christ will be resurrected from the dead and the 2nd death will have no power of them. I also said before that the 2nd death takes place at the GWT.

Getting back to this thread: The souls of those who had been beheaded for their tesimony to Jesus and for their refusal to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name,

.. are seen living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, and the 2nd death has no power of them.

The 2nd death comes after the resurrection from the dead, but leave that aside for now.

If the millennium is symbolic of the period between Calvary and the return of Christ, NOSAS is incompatible with it, because all those living and reigning with Christ during the millennium will not experience the 2nd death. You have to do a lot of verbal and mental gymnastics to hold onto NOSAS if you're Amil.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

You said you agreed with what I said in my post, yet your posts often argue against what I have said in my posts, and my posts are always saying the same thing.

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I agree with some of what you've said and disagree with the rest. What is hard to understand about that?

And you say I'm confusing. At least I'm always saying the same things.

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So am I. It's your inability to understand anything but your own view that is causing your confusion.

If you say you agree with what I said then why are you arguing against what I said? Those who died in Christ will be resurrected from the dead and the 2nd death will have no power of them. I also said before that the 2nd death takes place at the GWT.

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I have said repeatedly that the second death CURRENTLY has no power over the dead in Christ whose souls are currently in heaven. Do you agree with that or not?

I've also said repeatedly that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ is not what is necessary to ensure that the second death has no power over them. The second death has no power over them right now and can't ever have any power over them in the future.

It is because the second death already has no power over them that they are reigning with Christ now in heaven and are guaranteed to be resurrected unto bodily immortality when Christ returns.

If the millennium is symbolic of the period between Calvary and the return of Christ, NOSAS is incompatible with it, because all those living and reigning with Christ during the millennium will not experience the 2nd death.

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That is based on your PREMIL view, not amil. You need to set your premil view aside for a minute and look at this from an amil viewpoint in order to make that determination. But, you seem unable or unwilling to do that.

You have to do a lot of verbal and mental gymnastics to hold onto NOSAS if you're Amil.

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Not at all. Again, it is your lack of understanding of what amils (my version of amil, at least) believe that is leading you to this false conclusion.

sovereigngrace said:

The last trumpet is exactly that - it is the last. It is the end. It is the final trumpet. The last trumpet is a trumpet of war. The last trump ushers in complete and wholesale destruction for all those left behind.

We find the phrase “battle trumpet” in 2 Samuel 2:28, 15:10, 18:16, 20:1, 20:22. This is the trumpet that spells the end.

Numbers 10:9

And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.

Joshua 6:20

So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

Judges 7:22

And the three hundred blew the trumpets, and the LORD set every man's sword against his fellow, even throughout all the host: and the host fled to Bethshittah in Zererath, and to the border of Abelmeholah, unto Tabbath.

Nehemiah 4:20

so wherever you hear the sound of the trumpet, come over to us, and our God will fight for us!"

Ezekiel 7:14

They have blown the trumpet, even to make all ready; but none goeth to the battle: for my wrath is upon all the multitude thereof.

Jeremiah 4:19

My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

Jeremiah 4:21

How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

Jeremiah 6:1

O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Bethhaccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction.

Jeremiah 42:14

Saying, No; but we will go into the land of Egypt, where we shall see no war, nor hear the sound of the trumpet, nor have hunger of bread; and there will we dwell:

Jeremiah 49:2

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will cause an alarm of war to be heard in Rabbah of the Ammonites; and it shall be a desolate heap, and her daughters shall be burned with fire: then shall Israel be heir unto them that were his heirs, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:27

Set ye up a standard in the land, blow the trumpet among the nations, prepare the nations against her, call together against her the kingdoms of Ararat, Minni, and Ashchenaz; appoint a captain against her; cause the horses to come up as the rough caterpillers.

Amos 2:2

But I will send a fire upon Moab, and it shall devour the palaces of Kerioth: and Moab shall die with tumult, with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet:

Zephaniah 1:16

A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

Hosea 5:8

"Sound the trumpet in Gibeah, and the alarm in Ramah. Cry out at Beth-aven Go out, Benjamin!

Zechariah 9:14

And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.



The only way your beliefs can be sustained is by avoiding the evidence. I will repeat what you ducked around.

Let us establish a few absolutes about this familiar passage:

(1) This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(3) These are both judged at His appearing.
(4) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(5) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(6) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(7) The good receive eternal life.
(8) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(9) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.

What happens to the righteous when Jesus appears? What happens to the wicked when He appears? In Matthew 25:33 Christ (the king) sets “the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.” He then sentences them, and eternally separates them. The sheep are the believers, the goats are the unbelievers. Jesus confirms this in this final sentencing of all mankind in Matthew 25:34, 41&46, declaring: “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

The terms “the sheep,” “them on his right hand,” “ye blessed” and “the righteous” are seen to be synonymous in this parable. The wicked on the other hand are simply deemed “the goats,” “them on the left hand” or “ye cursed.” The righteous are seen in Matthew 25:31-45 to “inherit the kingdom” and “life eternal” whereas the wicked are cast “into everlasting fire” and receive “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46). The designations and sentences can only relate to the saved and the unsaved. They could not be clearer. There are no exceptions or other groups additional to these two diametrically opposing groupings.

This is the final separation of the wicked from the redeemed of God. It is the climactic assignment of eternal destinies. All mankind is found embodied in one of these two unique groupings. There are no ‘nearly saved or ‘semi-saved’ people or ‘nearly lost’ or ‘semi-lost’ people on this day. One is either clothed with Christ’s robes of righteousness or eternally saved or he is He is clothed with his own filthy rags of righteousness and eternally lost. No one inherits the kingdom through national identity.

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The church cannot claim righteousness of their own. That is the difference. The church only has the righteousness of Christ.

At the Second Coming the righteousness of the sheep is their own, not Christ's. It was their works that God was looking at when they were separated from the goats. Matthew 25:34-46

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take your inheritance, the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you made me your guest,
36 I needed clothes and you provided them, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’
37 Then the people who have done what God wants will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and make you our guest, or needing clothes and provide them?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’
40 The King will say to them, ‘Yes! I tell you that whenever you did these things for one of the least important of these brothers of mine, you did them for me!’
41 “Then he will also speak to those on his left, saying, ‘Get away from me, you who are cursed! Go off into the fire prepared for the Adversary and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 a stranger and you did not welcome me, needing clothes and you did not give them to me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 Then they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, a stranger, needing clothes, sick or in prison, and not take care of you?’
45 And he will answer them, ‘Yes! I tell you that whenever you refused to do it for the least important of these people, you refused to do it for me!’
46 They will go off to eternal punishment, but those who have done what God wants will go to eternal life.”

How can this be considered the gospel?

Spiritual Jew said:

I believe having part in the first resurrection has to do with spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection and His resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20).

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Spiritually, does that mean heavenly or figuratively? There is a difference. Paradise is a physical place with physical bodies. Incorruptible bodies. If you mean we are symbolically raised, that is nuts. Your belief is only vapor with no substance. Jesus was 100% The Trinity in one body. God and the Holy Spirit was on that Cross that one split second, when Jesus claimed He was abandoned. God in Heaven did not turn His Back. God was physically on the Cross. That is the difference between a substitution and the real deal. God Himself was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World.

We were physically there as well in Christ. Those who accept what God did. That is why there is no sting in physical death. Death is meaningless. King David understood that way back in the OT. He called death sleep. 2 Corinthians 5 does point out absent from the body is present with the Lord. Two totally different types of bodies. Adam had that body before he disobeyed God. That incorruptible body without a sin nature. That body died and Adam received a corruptible body. This corruption is passed down to every descendant.

That is what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3. You have to be born of the corruptible first. Then born of the Holy Spirit. See this point of Paul: 5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit.

The second birth is not realized immediately in this life. The Holy Spirit is a pledge or credit. Physical death is the moment of Spiritual birth, because we have passed from Death, corruptible flesh, to life, incorruptible bodies. No we do not re-enter our mothers womb. The Holy Spirit continues to seal and acts as our pledge, until death.

Can we always curse God and die in our own filthy rags after once claiming the Holy Spirit as a pledge? It is plausible, but some give up way before Job did, and Job was accused of self righteousness. I think that is wrong. Job cursed his corruptible status, but never felt he was his own means of righteousness. Did he doubt God? More than likely, cause no one took his side. Could he have quit and given up? Absolutely, many have. Look at Judas who refused to make things right, and accept the consequences. He just went out and killed himself, instead of asking Jesus Christ for forgiveness.

Born of the Spirit is not physical, but it is more than just symbolism. And one has to leave this sinful body behind to be "born" into the permanent incorruptible body in Paradise. But the only means was the Atonement, of the Cross, in which all in Christ were there, because of being in Christ, even before the foundation of the world. All were written in the Lamb's book of life. Not all are willing to be there. They are self righteous.

Timtofly said:

Spiritually, does that mean heavenly or figuratively? There is a difference. Paradise is a physical place with physical bodies. Incorruptible bodies. If you mean we are symbolically raised, that is nuts. Your belief is only vapor with no substance.

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You are unable to back up your views with scripture and that is why you have to resort to insults.

Please tell me how you interpret this passage:

Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.