What About Progressive Sanctification?

RickReads

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Oh I see. So your position is that God didn't ADD a human being to the Trinity, rather He changed His nature to being human, without actually changing in any way and thus remained immutable. Gee, that makes a lot of sense.

Do you believe Jesus took a few pieces of bread & fish and fed several thousand people with it?
 
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You do get that the hypostatic union is nowhere stated in Scripture. The only thing that Scripture states is that the divine Word became flesh.

The hypostatic union is the claim that God took an ordinary human soul, he took one of us - could have easily been you or me - and added it to the Trinity.

Could you please show me the Scriptures establishing that doctrine? I can't seem to recall the exact verses lately. Oh that's right - there aren't any! Your words are appropos:
that is not the HU which could only happen with the Divine Son, no one else period.

you sure like to make up your own theology.
 
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JAL

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that is not the HU which could only happen with the Divine Son, no one else period.

you sure like to make up your own theology.
I told you in the beginning that I was pretty sure that you're not familiar with the doctrine. You're just confirming it.
 
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JAL

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that is not the HU which could only happen with the Divine Son, no one else period.
If no one else was involved why do you suppose a ubiquitous Systematic Theology textbook is asking us to accept this equation:

"2 + 1 = 2"
 
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JAL

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that is not the HU which could only happen with the Divine Son, no one else period.
And with respect to my analogy of Mike (which you've ignored probably 3 times now)
(1) who DOES know all math
(2) and does NOT know any math

Lewis Sperry Chafer, founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, acknowledged it to be a real issue. When talking about how incomprehensible is the notion of 2 natures, he said this:

"“How could He know and not know?…These are problems the finite mind cannot solve” (Lewis Sperry Chafer, “Trinitarianism Part 7,” Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol 98:391 (1941), p. 278).

He's quite correct. The finite mind cannot resolve an insoluble contradiction.
 
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And with respect to the my analogy of Mike (which you've ignored probably 3 times now)
(1) who DOES know all math
(2) and does NOT know any math

Lewis Sperry Chafer, founder of Dallas Theological Seminary, acknowledged it to be a real issue. When talking about how incomprehensible is the notion of 2 natures, he said this:

"“How could He know and not know?…These are problems the finite mind cannot solve” (Lewis Sperry Chafer, “Trinitarianism Part 7,” Bibliotheca Sacra, Vol 98:391 (1941), p. 278).

He's quite correct. The finite mind cannot resolve an insoluble contradiction.
another appeal to authority. anyone can find an "authority" to support their views.
 
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JAL

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another appeal to authority. anyone can find an "authority" to support their views.
He was a defender of the hypostatic union. When a professional defender of a doctrine concedes the weak points of that doctrine, it's pretty significant.
 
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He was a defender of the hypostatic union. When a professional defender of a doctrine concedes the weak points of that doctrine, it's pretty significant.
Like I said the fallacy of appealing to authority.
 
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JAL

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that is not the HU which could only happen with the Divine Son, no one else period.
You really have only two choices here.
(1) The soul within Christ's body was the original Son - the divine Son of God. That doesn't make for a real Incarnation because, if the Son is immutable, it would still be an omniscient divine, omnipotent Mind dwelling within a human body, somewhat like the Holy Spirit dwells within it. Therefore orthodoxy rejected this position.
(2) The other option was to take a created human soul - could have been you or me - somehow merge it to the Godhead (of course all this is said to be incomprehensible) - and place it inside Christ's body. This is the hypostatic union. Here's an article on the matter.

The two choices, then, are:
(1) Divine soul. Uncreated, because God is uncreated
(2) A created human soul.

Here's a statement from that article: "That’s wrong. Christ’s human soul is created, but (like His Body) His soul is united to Him from the first moment of its existence."

This has led to the question as whether Christ's soul - being one of us - was tarnished at the outset with original sin. As I seem to recall, Augustine's claim was that the Father cleansed Christ's soul of original sin before placing it in Mary's womb.
 
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You really have only two choices here.
(1) The soul within Christ's body was the original Son - the divine Son of God. That doesn't make for a real Incarnation because, if the Son is immutable, it would still be an omniscient divine, omnipotent Mind dwelling within a human body, somewhat like the Holy Spirit dwells within it. Therefore orthodoxy rejected this position.
(2) The other option was to take a created human soul - could have been you or me - somehow merge it to the Godhead (of course all this is said to be incomprehensible) - and place it inside Christ's body. This is the hypostatic union. Here's an article on the matter.

The two choices, then, are:
(1) Divine soul. Uncreated, because God is uncreated
(2) A created human soul.

Here's a statement from that article: "That’s wrong. Christ’s human soul is created, but (like His Body) His soul is united to Him from the first moment of its existence."

This has led to the question as whether Christ's soul - being one of us - was tarnished at the outset with original sin. As I seem to recall, Augustine's claim was that the Father cleansed Christ's soul of original sin before placing it in Mary's womb.
I don't have any choices to make just the fact the HU is true and Jesus is fully God, fully man. He is One Divine Person with 2 natures.

hope this helps !!!
 
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JAL

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I don't have any choices to make just the fact the HU is true and Jesus is fully God, fully man. He is One Divine Person with 2 natures.

hope this helps !!!
You indicated acceptance of the HU. I'm sorry you don't like what that doctrine teaches. But nobody forced you to accept it. That was YOUR decision.
 
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JAL

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I don't have any choices to make just the fact the HU is true and Jesus is fully God, fully man. He is One Divine Person with 2 natures.

hope this helps !!!
Can you show me where the hypostatic union is taught in Scripture? For example the idea that He actually became human - and thus was potentially a candidate for original sin?

I certainly agree that He became fully man - defined as a weak, ignorant, bipedal rational animal anatomically and psychologically resembling Adam. But human? A created being? One of Adam's actual descendants potentially in the legacy of original sin? Where is that taught in Scripture, please?
 
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You indicated acceptance of the HU. I'm sorry you don't like what that doctrine teaches. But nobody forced you to accept it. That was YOUR decision.
I love what it teaches but you seem to reject its truth and that it comes straight from scripture. I put this together some time ago but it is pertinent to this discussion. I've been studying this topic for over 4 decades now and I'm well verses on the H.U.

Hypostatic Union

1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.

4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the fifth general council at Constantinople, 533 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).

We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.

Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question.

hope this helps !!!
 
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JAL

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Like I said the fallacy of appealing to authority.
Can't win. If I express an objection, you ignore it. And when I show the very defenders of the doctrine conceding that same weak point, your excuse to ignore it is, "Appeal to authority".

Your claim is that Christ had 2 natures simultaneously.
(1) Divine. Knows everything.
(2) Human. Knows comparatively little or nothing.

For the bzillionth time, can you explain how this make sense? Can you resolve this apparent logical contradiction?
 
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JAL

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I love what it teaches but you seem to reject its truth and that it comes straight from scripture. I put this together some time ago but it is pertinent to this discussion. I've been studying this topic for over 4 decades now and I'm well verses on the H.U.

Hypostatic Union

1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.

4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the fifth general council at Constantinople, 533 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).

We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.

Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question.

hope this helps !!!
The soul in Christ's body. Where did it come from? Was it the uncreated God? Or a created soul?
 
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Can't win. If I express an objection, you ignore it. And when I show the very defenders of the doctrine conceding that same weak point, your excuse to ignore it is, "Appeal to authority".

Your claim is that Christ had 2 natures simultaneously.
(1) Divine. Knows everything.
(2) Human. Knows comparatively little or nothing.

For the bzillionth time, can you explain how this make sense? Can you resolve this apparent logical contradiction?
Read the HU which I posted very carefully as it is thoroughly explained.

hope this helps !!!
 
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