How can I bring the presence of God into my room or other "intimate" place?

aiki · Nov 14, 2020

TruthSeek3r said:
The apostle Paul had an "extreme experience" in his way to Damascus. Does Benny Hinn represent the apostle Paul then?

??? I should think the answer to your question is obvious. I don't see any parallel between the two except in the respect you've pointed out.

A question of my own, though, is this: Is the apostle Paul's experience on the Road to Damascus representative of the typical way God interacts with us?

TruthSeek3r said:
The original verses didn't mention the word anointing, but they did mention the Holy Spirit. And the new verses I shared with you show that the Holy Spirit is the one anointing the Christians.

With himself. The Holy Spirit is the anointing. In any case, I see what you were trying to do.

TruthSeek3r said:
Now, if what you are looking for is specific verses saying explicitly that "the anointing can be felt, and it feels like this", at the moment I can't think of any verse providing such a level of specific information on the matter, although, as I we have previously discussed, there are verses supporting that the Holy Spirit can make people consciously experience love, peace, joy, "rivers of living water" quenching their spiritual thirst, we have also the expression "baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire", and I know lots of testimonies of people reporting "heat" or "warmth" which matches very well with the "fire" part, etc.

But here's the thing: Are we ever told in Scripture (particularly the NT) to seek after a physical feeling of the Spirit or an intense emotional sense of him? What I see in Scripture seems to indicate that the Spirit transforms us on the level of our desires and character, working to make us more like Jesus in our thinking and living, not pandering to our natural sensuality by tingling us, or warming us, or what have you, or spiking our emotions.

Matthew 3:11 (NASB)
11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

We know from the description in Acts 2 that there were "tongues of flame" hovering over the first born-again children of God. The account of Acts 2 says nothing about the temperature of the flame. The account does not say anything at all, actually, about physical sensations of warmth or tingling as the disciples were baptized in the Spirit and spiritually regenerated. And other conversion accounts - two of which I already cited in my last post - involved no tongues of flame either, or marked physical sensations of energy or warmth. So, why are Christians playing this stuff up? Yes, God can do remarkable supernatural things, but it is seeking after a sign (Luke 11:29), it is a fleshly attempt to make God accessible to our physical senses in the way most everything else is, it seems to me, to chase after such things, urging other believers to do so, too.

TruthSeek3r said:
Btw, if you want a concrete example of someone having a supernatural experience of the anointing, like literally feeling like oil being poured out on their head and running down their body, you should definitely watch this testimony (just 1 min from the timestamp, no more). This lady was coming from the New Age and had no idea about the Holy Spirit or the anointing or anything like that. The whole experience was completely unexpected and unprecedented for her.

Why would you give her story any credence? Do you have any way to check the veracity of her claims? Does her experience correspond to Scripture? Do we read of anyone in the New Testament (or the OT, for that matter) feeling invisible oil poured on their head in manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

TruthSeek3r said:
But now you have another problem: how do you discern if an experience is physical or spiritual? When Peter had a vision of a net from Heaven presenting many animals to choose from and eat in Acts 10, he certainly had a visual experience, he saw something. Is that "sensual" for you? What about the Holy Spirit making people feel love, joy, peace. Is that "sensual" for you? What about having an intense experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire (take Acts 2 as an example). Is that "sensual" for you?

We are unavoidably sensual creatures; God has made us to experience physical reality through our physical senses. Being spiritual, however, doesn't involve the total forsaking of all our senses, which would be impossible given our basic physical nature. But the more we make our senses the primary means of experiencing God, the less spiritual I believe our experience actually is (Galatians 5:17; Romans 8:1-18). I am not, in saying this, espousing the idea that all sensation whatever is contrary to walking with God. That's an obviously ridiculous sort of thinking. Today, though, Christians are being urged very strongly to engage with God through their physical senses which necessarily entails the flesh in which those senses are embedded. We know the flesh is corrupt and tends naturally and strongly away from God and so, in light of this, the Christian ought to be extremely careful about how sensual they make their walk with God who is Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (NASB)
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

TruthSeek3r said:
I think you are conflating here conversion/salvation with being filled/baptized in the Holy Spirit, as if they were one and the same experience. Those cases are clear examples of conversion, no question about that, but how do you know they were baptized in the Holy Spirit also?

In Scripture, the baptism of the Spirit is the spiritual regeneration of the lost person at the moment of conversion. It is the conversion experience of Acts 2, happening only once to the saved person.

Being filled with the Spirit is not being baptized in the Spirit, though the former may initially accompany the latter, as in Acts 2. Being filled with the Spirit is the consequence of getting low before him, of agreeing to his full, moment-by-moment control of you. When we are not barring the way by our own self-will and interest, the Holy Spirit naturally fills us with himself, transforming us as a result. Believers, then, can be saved - baptized in the Spirit - but not be filled by him. They may be filled by the Spirit many times as they stray from surrender to him and then return.

TruthSeek3r · Nov 14, 2020

aiki said:
You know, the one video that jumps out to me as the most insidiously fleshly is Paul Washer's testimony where he makes his pursuit of God's presence the key to spiritual power and fruitfulness. Paul goes into the closet, Paul walks the wilderness for three days, behaving like a wild man, Paul went after God month after month until Paul finally got what he wanted. And now, Paul is bold, Paul knows God is real and present, etc., etc. [...]

Really I don't see anything different between Paul Washer's desperate search for God and Jacob's wrestling with God seeking to be blessed.

Genesis 32:22-31

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip.

Does Jacob's testimony jumps out to you as insidiously fleshly too?

Also, to give you more context to understand why Paul Washer embarked in his pursuit of an encounter, I encourage you to watch the following 6 min long clip in which Paul explains how the testimonies of different men of God inspired him:

Seek God Violently In Prayer by Paul Washer

Also, I find certain similarities between Paul Washer's pursuit of an encounter and Zac Poonen's pursuit of change in his life that ended up with his baptism in the Holy Spirit. In both testimonies the individuals were seeking some sort of blessing/change from God's part, had to endure for a significant amount of time, experienced discouragement and eventually received a surprising response. You can find Zac Poonen's testimony below (it's about 8 mins long):

(Clip) Testimony of Being Filled with the Holy Spirit by Zac Poonen

aiki said:
When I think on all of this, I recall Paul the apostle's question to the Galatians, "Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3) This is what I heard in Paul W's story: A man being perfected, not by the Spirit, but by the flesh, by human effort, resolve, and intense emotion. Every saved person began with God by the work of the Spirit and, as Paul the apostle explained to the Galatians, they continue under the very same spiritual dynamic in their walk with God. God saves us and God changes us. We don't change ourselves for God; that's "being perfected by the flesh." But this is, essentially, what I heard Paul W describing: not a work of God in Paul W but a work of Paul W, twisting God's arm 'til he got from God what he wanted.

I think Paul Washer actually agrees with you, based on several videos I've watched from him, he pretty much agrees with the importance of the Holy Spirit in changing people's lives instead of people relying on their own effort. Once again, I encourage you to watch the following two videos (they are quite short):

Empowered by the Holy Spirit - Paul Washer

The Power of the Holy Spirit is Essential - Paul Washer

aiki said:
No believer, then, has to closet himself or wander the wild in order to have a deep, abiding experience of the God who dwells within him by His Spirit. The saved person has already drawn near to God in his conversion and now he is a temple of the living God (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) who can be no more present in the believer than He already is.

Then how do you explain the evidence in Scripture showing that believers can experience greater infillings of the Holy Spirit post conversion? Please read the following question and the answers to understand why I'm saying this: Do all believers receive the Holy Spirit at conversion but only a few are filled with the Holy Spirit post conversion?

aiki · Nov 14, 2020

TruthSeek3r said:
Really I don't see anything different between Paul's desperate search for God and Jacob's wrestling with God seeking to be blessed.

Really? Was Jacob indwelt by the Holy Spirit, a born-again child of God, as Paul W is?

I don't see anything but the most superficial similarity between the two stories.

TruthSeek3r said:
Does Jacob's testimony jumps out to you as insidiously fleshly too?

Jacob's story was entirely fleshly! He did not have God's Spirit dwelling within him and knew nothing of Christ, the Saviour. Jacob literally physically wrestled with the angel of God! You can't get more fleshly! But this is not the way born-again believers are instructed to carry on in their walk with God in the NT.

Look, I haven't the interest, nor the time to go through all the videos you've posted (while you've ignored most of my post in the process) and then discuss them. You wanted my remarks on the single Paul Washer video, which I gave you. You did not tell me I would then have to defend my remarks against a swarm of other videos you want to offer as context. You are discussing with me in a second-hand way now, not putting forward your own explanations and ideas and directly working through mine, but forcing me instead to contend with Paul Washer and Zac Poonen both of whom have hundreds of videos online!

Anyway, I think I've posted all I'm going to in this thread. It seems pretty clear that you don't want to genuinely consider my explanations but merely dismiss them, poking holes wherever you think a weakness may exist in them. So far, this has led to you not really understanding my point of view, but merely defending your own.

TruthSeek3r · Nov 14, 2020

aiki said:
A question of my own, though, is this: Is the apostle Paul's experience on the Road to Damascus representative of the typical way God interacts with us?

No, but as I already explained before, it serves as a proof of concept, it shows that powerful experiences are a possibility and that we shouldn't be surprised if they happen to us or if we hear about others having powerful experiences.

aiki said:
But here's the thing: Are we ever told in Scripture (particularly the NT) to seek after a physical feeling of the Spirit or an intense emotional sense of him? What I see in Scripture seems to indicate that the Spirit transforms us on the level of our desires and character, working to make us more like Jesus in our thinking and living, not pandering to our natural sensuality by tingling us, or warming us, or what have you, or spiking our emotions.

I understand the point and for the most part agree with what you are saying, but I think there is an underlying false dichotomy that may be leading people to adopt two extreme positions: 1) only sanctification, no experience and 2) overemphasis on experience, no sanctification. Why the either/or? Why present them as mutually exclusive when you can have both? Why not enjoy both experiences and sanctification?

aiki said:
Matthew 3:11 (NASB)
11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

We know from the description in Acts 2 that there were "tongues of flame" hovering over the first born-again children of God. The account of Acts 2 says nothing about the temperature of the flame. The account does not say anything at all, actually, about physical sensations of warmth or tingling as the disciples were baptized in the Spirit and spiritually regenerated. And other conversion accounts - two of which I already cited in my last post - involved no tongues of flame either, or marked physical sensations of energy or warmth. So, why are Christians playing this stuff up? Yes, God can do remarkable supernatural things, but it is seeking after a sign (Luke 11:29), it is a fleshly attempt to make God accessible to our physical senses in the way most everything else is, it seems to me, to chase after such things, urging other believers to do so, too.

Ok, good point, but keep in mind that not everything is mentioned in the Bible. Does the Bible talk about quantum mechanics? No. Should we conclude from that that quantum mechanics is false?

If Acts 2 does not tell us all the details, it doesn't follow that there were no more details. Quite the contrary, for sure there were more details. Not everything is reported in Acts. Furthermore, there is no reason to claim limits on God's creativity regarding the experiences that He may decide to grant to people. And the feeling of warmth/heat does not contradict anything in the Bible either, in fact, it goes very well with what you would expect in a baptism in Holy Spirit and fire. You also have the overwhelming testimonial evidence of people reporting this experience. Of course, we have to have discernment and not believe every single testimony out there, but likewise, we shouldn't be knee-jerkly rejecting every testimony out there either. Look at the fruits. Does the person show evidence of sanctification, transformation? Is the person on fire for God? If you see evidence of good fruit, then the testimony's credibility increases.

aiki said:
Why would you give her story any credence? Do you have any way to check the veracity of her claims? Does her experience correspond to Scripture? Do we read of anyone in the New Testament (or the OT, for that matter) feeling invisible oil poured on their head in manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

Because of what I just explained. Why would she lie? Why would she be making up stories? Her cannel has very few subscribers, she's not asking for money, she's not promoting her Patreon, Paypal or anything like that. She had a New Age background and had astonishing experiences that led her to unexpected converting to Christianity. She also uploaded a video very recently, months after her testimony video, where she gives evidence of being fully sold out to Jesus. And her channel only has two videos, essentially the channel's whole purpose is to promote Christianity.

Do you really think she's making it all up?

aiki said:
In Scripture, the baptism of the Spirit is the spiritual regeneration of the lost person at the moment of conversion. It is the conversion experience of Acts 2, happening only once to the saved person.

Then how do you explain the following counter-examples:

Acts 8:14-17 (NIV)

14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-7 (NIV)

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

NBB · Nov 14, 2020

aiki said:
??? I should think the answer to your question is obvious. I don't see any parallel between the two except in the respect you've pointed out.

A question of my own, though, is this: Is the apostle Paul's experience on the Road to Damascus representative of the typical way God interacts with us?

With himself. The Holy Spirit is the anointing. In any case, I see what you were trying to do.

But here's the thing: Are we ever told in Scripture (particularly the NT) to seek after a physical feeling of the Spirit or an intense emotional sense of him? What I see in Scripture seems to indicate that the Spirit transforms us on the level of our desires and character, working to make us more like Jesus in our thinking and living, not pandering to our natural sensuality by tingling us, or warming us, or what have you, or spiking our emotions.

Matthew 3:11 (NASB)
11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

We know from the description in Acts 2 that there were "tongues of flame" hovering over the first born-again children of God. The account of Acts 2 says nothing about the temperature of the flame. The account does not say anything at all, actually, about physical sensations of warmth or tingling as the disciples were baptized in the Spirit and spiritually regenerated. And other conversion accounts - two of which I already cited in my last post - involved no tongues of flame either, or marked physical sensations of energy or warmth. So, why are Christians playing this stuff up? Yes, God can do remarkable supernatural things, but it is seeking after a sign (Luke 11:29), it is a fleshly attempt to make God accessible to our physical senses in the way most everything else is, it seems to me, to chase after such things, urging other believers to do so, too.

Why would you give her story any credence? Do you have any way to check the veracity of her claims? Does her experience correspond to Scripture? Do we read of anyone in the New Testament (or the OT, for that matter) feeling invisible oil poured on their head in manifestation of the Holy Spirit?

We are unavoidably sensual creatures; God has made us to experience physical reality through our physical senses. Being spiritual, however, doesn't involve the total forsaking of all our senses, which would be impossible given our basic physical nature. But the more we make our senses the primary means of experiencing God, the less spiritual I believe our experience actually is (Galatians 5:17; Romans 8:1-18). I am not, in saying this, espousing the idea that all sensation whatever is contrary to walking with God. That's an obviously ridiculous sort of thinking. Today, though, Christians are being urged very strongly to engage with God through their physical senses which necessarily entails the flesh in which those senses are embedded. We know the flesh is corrupt and tends naturally and strongly away from God and so, in light of this, the Christian ought to be extremely careful about how sensual they make their walk with God who is Spirit.

Galatians 6:8 (NASB)
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

In Scripture, the baptism of the Spirit is the spiritual regeneration of the lost person at the moment of conversion. It is the conversion experience of Acts 2, happening only once to the saved person.

Being filled with the Spirit is not being baptized in the Spirit, though the former may initially accompany the latter, as in Acts 2. Being filled with the Spirit is the consequence of getting low before him, of agreeing to his full, moment-by-moment control of you. When we are not barring the way by our own self-will and interest, the Holy Spirit naturally fills us with himself, transforming us as a result. Believers, then, can be saved - baptized in the Spirit - but not be filled by him. They may be filled by the Spirit many times as they stray from surrender to him and then return.

About what you said about Paul Washer:

We need to pray and seek God with strength though if you don't do that God is going to do little in your life, a lesson i learned... also if you don't seek and pray and fight the good fight you can get cold, when Paul talks we are like atletles this is true, we need to do stuff and win the race by the grace of God, but that includes praying and seeking God, yes the more people pray and seek the more God can do stuff. Because everything is granted to us by grace by the work of Jesus, but we get those things if we do not stagnate ourselves, and to do that we basically need to pray and seek.

About being filled, there are requeriments to stay filled with the Holy spirit, like not sinning and maintaining prayer etc. But there is not requeriment on getting filled with the Holy spirit, the only requeriment is to convert or believe in Jesus, born again etc, then you can seek and ask this blessing, that is the person of the Holy spirit filling yourself like if you were a vessel.

And like i said before, feeling some things is normal when you happen to experiences several of the things the bible talks about. And there is nothing wrong with that, and this is not to be confused with physical sensations or your 'emotions'.

aiki · Nov 15, 2020

NBB said:
About what you said about Paul Washer:

We need to pray and seek God with strength though if you don't do that God is going to do little in your life, a lesson i learned...

But, if this were true, no one would be saved. I made this point in an earlier post. Did you start toward God all on your own? Did you muster up the faith to believe the Gospel? Did you dredge up the ability to convict yourself of your sin? Did you cause yourself to repent and trust in Christ? The Bible teaches that doing is so impossible! Do you not agree? Read Ephesians 2:1-3; or Colossians 1:21; or 1 John 4:10, or Romans 8:5-8. If what these passages tell us about ourselves before we were saved is true, no one is able to seek God. God must draw them, giving them repentance, faith, and conviction in order to choose to trust in Christ. This doesn't change when a person is saved. A believer is still totally reliant upon God for all that they need to be who He has made them to be.

Paul Washer's story suggested otherwise, however. His story indicated that walking with God is centered upon the believer and their resolve, their effort, their pursuit of God and that, if the believer doesn't go after God, they can expect nothing but a cold, flat experience of Him. This is not biblical. At all. We can only work out what God has first worked into us. (Philippians 2:12-13) Our "job" as Christians is to receive, remain in, and reflect the work of God in our lives; we don't wrest from God, and preserve, and manufacture our walk with Him.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Ephesians 1:18-19 (NASB)
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

1 Corinthians 1:8-9 (NASB)
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NASB)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

And so on.

NBB said:
also if you don't seek and pray and fight the good fight you can get cold, when Paul talks we are like atletles this is true, we need to do stuff and win the race by the grace of God, but that includes praying and seeking God, yes the more people pray and seek the more God can do stuff. Because everything is granted to us by grace by the work of Jesus, but we get those things if we do not stagnate ourselves, and to do that we basically need to pray and seek.

And all of this thinking puts you - not God - at the center of your relationship to Him. You cannot truly know God this way. Do you really believe the power and Person of God can be found in Self-effort?

NBB said:
About being filled, there are requeriments to stay filled with the Holy spirit, like not sinning and maintaining prayer etc. But there is not requeriment on getting filled with the Holy spirit, the only requeriment is to convert or believe in Jesus, born again etc, then you can seek and ask this blessing, that is the person of the Holy spirit filling yourself like if you were a vessel.

I've already explained earlier in this thread that being filled with the Spirit is the result of living in submission to him, moment-by-moment, throughout each day. It is only in a state of submission to God that He transforms us. You can go back to my earlier posts and read the Scripture I've offered in support of these assertions. God won't fill and transform anyone who is not walking with Him as a "living sacrifice." Surrender is the key to being filled, not trying to meet God half-way, or adding our effort to His. God doesn't need us to add our effort; He has quite enough power to change us on His own. It is Self, the "old man," that prompts us to think otherwise.

By the way, the filling of the Spirit can only occur after one is "baptized into the Spirit" which is another way of saying "converted." One must be converted and indwelt by the Spirit before one can be filled by Him.

NBB said:
And like i said before, feeling some things is normal when you happen to experiences several of the things the bible talks about. And there is nothing wrong with that, and this is not to be confused with physical sensations or your 'emotions'.

As I've explained already in this thread, I have never said that the Christian life is totally empty of all feelings of every sort. What I have pointed out is that many Christians think certain "supernatural" physical sensations and extreme emotions are important - vital, even - to walking with God and that, if they don't have them, they are experiencing a lesser sort of life in Christ. But this is nowhere stated in Scripture. Nowhere.

NBB · Nov 15, 2020

aiki said:
As I've explained already in this thread, I have never said that the Christian life is totally empty of all feelings of every sort. What I have pointed out is that many Christians think certain "supernatural" physical sensations and extreme emotions are important - vital, even - to walking with God and that, if they don't have them, they are experiencing a lesser sort of life in Christ. But this is nowhere stated in Scripture. Nowhere

its not your 'feelings' when God does something to you, and its not physical sensations either or emotions, is like for example, when you are filled with the Holy spirit its just normal to feel his presence, its just is, because the person of the HS is filling your interior and this is sensed or felt.

aiki said:
But, if this were true, no one would be saved. I made this point in an earlier post. Did you start toward God all on your own?

I'm not talking about converting but about the christian life though, yes we need to pray 'and make efforts and be brave to obey God' basically to pray and seek, if you don't ask and pray and seek you will stagnate and you will not get much from God. Just see in the bible, several times they were praying for something to happen various people, and God responded, i think this is something basic, we need to do stuff and pray and seek, specially in times of need and battle.

aiki said:
And all of this thinking puts you - not God - at the center of your relationship to Him. You cannot truly know God this way. Do you really believe the power and Person of God can be found in Self-effort?

He is the one doing the heavy lifting and transforming so the credit for this that he does its for him, but we have to do our part.

aiki said:
I've already explained earlier in this thread that being filled with the Spirit is the result of living in submission to him, moment-by-moment, throughout each day. It is only in a state of submission to God that He transforms us. You can go back to my earlier posts and read the Scripture I've offered in support of these assertions. God won't fill and transform anyone who is not walking with Him as a "living sacrifice." Surrender is the key to being filled, not trying to meet God half-way, or adding our effort to His. God doesn't need us to add our effort; He has quite enough power to change us on His own. It is Self, the "old man," that prompts us to think otherwise.

I had a different experience with being filled with the Holy spirit, i didn't ask or anything but i was in church and didn't know God very well, i just felt how the Holy spirit entered me in like my chest area after that whole new opportunities opened with God and God started to do a lot of things in my life. I could discern the Holy spirit.
I can't deny how awesome and true God is after that.

FutureAndAHope · Nov 15, 2020

TruthSeek3r said:
I want to start this thread by sharing with you several testimonies of people who have experienced the presence of God. Some of these testimonies are quite long, so I'm giving you the videos with the timestamps included in the links so that you can watch from the exact second they start telling their experience. Please, watch at least a few videos to understand what I'm talking about:

1) From model/to New Age witchcraft/To saved by Jesus Christ
2) New Age to Christianity // My Supernatural Experience with God
3) WOW! A Jewish lawyer and a leader in her synagogue who turned to Jesus in a supernatural way!
4) (Clip) Testimony of Being Filled with the Holy Spirit by Zac Poonen
5) Christian Life Testimony•BAPTISM of HOLY SPIRIT
6) From New Age to Jesus - My Unexpected Encounter with God
7) My Testimony Finding Jesus / Demonic Encounter / Hearing God's Voice!
8) Testimony of Andres Bisonni. Daystar Television Network
9) HERE'S WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN AN ATHEIST GETS SURROUNDED WITH 80 PRAYING RUSSIANS!
10) MY TESTIMONY (X-New Ager converts to CHRISTIANITY after seeing Jesus Christ)
11) Steve Hill - true encounter with God
12) From Atheist To Believer In Jesus Christ: How Jesus Cured My Eating Disorder, Christian Testimony
13) My Testimony - From New Age to JESUS
14) "I was Face-Down in the Presence of Jesus Christ"- Instantly Delivered from Drug Addiction
15) Paul Washer- The Presence of God
16) From New age and ayahuasca to Jesus
17) Muslim Man's Journey To Christ
18) Testimony - How did a Jew meet Jesus in Israel by Keren (한글)
19) Muslim only by name finds Jesus. Psychedelic, spiritual realms. Jesus saved me.My personal testimony

What is the secret to be able to have such an intimate experience with God? Do we have to cross our fingers and hope for the best, or are there concrete actions that one can take to develop an intimate close relationship with God and have experiences like these in one's room or any other intimate setting (and hopefully on a frequent basis)?
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Edit: I just posted a question on Christianity StackExchange which is related to and may be a good complement to the thread. Feel free to take a look: Is there biblical support for "feeling the presence of God" as reported by multiple Christian conversion testimonies?

Many of those testimonies, are encounters that people had with God in a powerful way. Often God will give an encounter to draw a person to himself. As an example the Muslim examples you showed, for a Muslim to come to Christ requires great sacrifice, they can even be killed for turning to Christ. They "need" strong encounters with God, so they know they are making the right decision. For the average Christain, like me, and you, there is no need for strong spiritual experiences. Faith in the cross is enough. I would say it is not wise to seek after spiritual experiences, of the felt kind. It often leads to disapointment, and some times false experiences. I know this from experience.

Rather seek the kind of experiencess that help others, be it healing, revelations that they may see, or other helpful things.

aiki · Nov 15, 2020

NBB said:
its not your 'feelings' when God does something to you, and its not physical sensations either or emotions, is like for example, when you are filled with the Holy spirit its just normal to feel his presence, its just is, because the person of the HS is filling your interior and this is sensed or felt.

Is the Holy Spirit physical? How do you feel a Spirit? How do feel something that has no physical substance?

NBB said:
I'm not talking about converting but about the christian life though, yes we need to pray 'and make efforts and be brave to obey God' basically to pray and seek, if you don't ask and pray and seek you will stagnate and you will not get much from God.

So, then, your Christian life depends on you, not God. But God didn't start with you this way. And He doesn't continue with you this way - as all those verses I showed you clearly indicate.

NBB said:
Just see in the bible, several times they were praying for something to happen various people, and God responded, i think this is something basic, we need to do stuff and pray and seek, specially in times of need and battle.

Of course we do. But we do this because we know God can do what we can't. Because He tells us without Him we can do nothing. (John 15:5)

NBB said:
He is the one doing the heavy lifting and transforming so the credit for this that he does its for him, but we have to do our part.

And what is that? What is our part? To receive, to remain, and to reflect. This is the Christian's "part." Not to manufacture and to sustain.

NBB said:
I had a different experience with being filled with the Holy spirit, i didn't ask or anything but i was in church and didn't know God very well, i just felt how the Holy spirit entered me in like my chest area after that whole new opportunities opened with God and God started to do a lot of things in my life. I could discern the Holy spirit.
I can't deny how awesome and true God is after that.

I don't doubt you had some kind of an experience, but I doubt very much it had anything to do with God. Just assuming it was, and then saying it was, in no way proves that it was. There is nothing like your experience recorded in the Bible. And nowhere in the Bible are we told to look for or pursue such experiences. So, I hold the idea that what you felt was the Holy Spirit in great doubt. I certainly don't think other believers should want to have a similar experience.

I've noticed all through our exchange how absent God's word has been from the things you've shared. Why is that? If the Holy Spirit is so powerfully present in your life, you should be devouring Scripture like crazy, knowing it and living it with great joy. But, instead, it appears to be something with which you are not very familiar at all. This puts your claims about feeling the Spirit "enter you in your chest area" into further doubt. If the Holy Spirit is in your life, you'll know it by the enormous hunger you have for God's word (among other things).

NBB · Nov 15, 2020

aiki said:
Is the Holy Spirit physical? How do you feel a Spirit? How do feel something that has no physical substance?

So, then, your Christian life depends on you, not God. But God didn't start with you this way. And He doesn't continue with you this way - as all those verse I showed you clearly indicate.

Of course we do. But we do this because we know God can do what we can't. Because He tells us without Him we can do nothing. (John 15:5)

And what is that? What is our part? To receive, to remain, and to reflect. This is the Christian's "part." Not to manufacture and to sustain.

I don't doubt you had some kind of an experience, but I doubt very much it had anything to do with God. Just assuming it was, and then saying it was, in no way proves that it was. There is nothing like your experience recorded in the Bible. And nowhere in the Bible are we told to look for or pursue such experiences. So, I hold the idea that what you felt was the Holy Spirit in great doubt. I certainly don't think other believers should want to have a similar experience.

I've noticed all through our exchange how absent God's word has been from the things you've shared. Why is that? If the Holy Spirit is so powerfully present in your life, you should be devouring Scripture like crazy, knowing it and living it with great joy. But, instead, it appears to be something with which you are not very familiar at all. This puts your claims about feeling the Spirit "enter you in your chest area" into further doubt. If the Holy Spirit is in your life, you'll know it by the enormous hunger you have for God's word (among other things).

The Presence of God/the Holy spirit 'feels' and a lot man, but its not physical or your 'emotions' and can be the most spiritually satisfying things, i highly wish christians could experience more of that myself included.

No christian life is not about receiveing and reflect only, thats not bad in itself, but we need to act and seek and pray or you may find that 'you don't receive because you don't ask' and sometimes it costs a lot of insisting and fighting and praying with the help of Jesus. But in the end its God who responds and does what we can't do.

Sorry to be that person but if you never 'felt' or 'sensed' or 'received' some spiritual good from God ever you are a bit on the 'dry' side of things and should seek God and pray more and have more hunger for him. Because there is so much God can do. But if you take offense... well i just mean with this the best.

I may be wrong, but I bet you also believe deliverance is not for today or not for christians or something like that, but christians even can have so much spiritual problems and we don't realize until God shows and start revealing, and then we can be free of those.

I myself have much to improve don't 'worry' about that. Sometimes people with lots of errors are blessed by God anyways.

NBB · Nov 15, 2020

aiki said:
Is the Holy Spirit physical? How do you feel a Spirit? How do feel something that has no physical substance?

That an interestig question, because it means you don't know about this, you feel God with your spirit/soul and he can give you even some 'hugs' with his spirit that has no match in how awesome it can be and this is the stuff 'heaven is made of'.

TruthSeek3r · Nov 16, 2020

aiki said:
I don't doubt you had some kind of an experience, but I doubt very much it had anything to do with God. Just assuming it was, and then saying it was, in no way proves that it was. There is nothing like your experience recorded in the Bible. And nowhere in the Bible are we told to look for or pursue such experiences. So, I hold the idea that what you felt was the Holy Spirit in great doubt. I certainly don't think other believers should want to have a similar experience.

As far as I'm aware, there are no records in the Bible about what people felt when they were demon possessed either. Should we conclude that people don't feel anything when they are demon possessed?

The Bible also doesn't say anything about Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, black holes, dark matter, Electromagnetism or Higgs bosons. Should we conclude that all of that is false?

Lastly, one question about Paul Washer's testimony: do you think he is lying, that he made it all up?

aiki · Nov 16, 2020

TruthSeek3r said:
The Bible also doesn't say anything about Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, black holes, dark matter, Electromagnetism or Higgs bosons. Should we conclude that all of that is false?

If I had a text on Quantum Mechanics and it told me nothing about Jesus's death on the cross, should I be surprised? Should I doubt the crucifixion of Christ, then? Is the Bible a scientific text? Does it propose to tell us all about quantum mechanics? Should I expect to find treatises on black holes and gravitational constants in Scripture? Obviously not. But the Bible does tell me that I can find within it all I need to know about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The Bible informs me on everything I need to know to walk well with God (Psalms 119:11, 105; Psalms 19:7-12; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 1 Peter 2:2). So, I should expect that if feeling sensations of the Holy Spirit, or chasing after high emotion, or walking the wilderness to provoke God to give me some powerful sense of His presence are things I ought to do, then the Bible will tell me so. But it doesn't.

aiki · Nov 16, 2020

TruthSeek3r said:
Lastly, one question about Paul Washer's testimony: do you think he is lying, that he made it all up?

Goodness! No! I think his story is real, that is, he did what he said he did and felt what he said he felt. But is it the right way to deal with God? No. Not as far as I can tell from Scripture. Did Paul actually meet with God? I'm pretty doubtful that he did. I suspect after winding himself up for months he may finally have unconsciously created his own "supernatural moment with God." This seems far more likely to me given that Scripture - particularly the NT - never tells us to do anything like what Paul W. did to find deep, personal communion with God.

aiki · Nov 16, 2020

By the way, the Zac Poonen video you asked me to look at in particular was actually pretty good. I was interested to observe that as he talked he went from interchanging the baptism of the Spirit with the filling of the Spirit to just talking of the filling of the Spirit. I agree with him that one can be filled and then not, as one walks with God. One's baptism of the Spirit, though, is a single moment, happening at conversion, by which one is given new spiritual life in Christ.

aiki · Nov 16, 2020

NBB said:
The Presence of God/the Holy spirit 'feels' and a lot man, but its not physical or your 'emotions' and can be the most spiritually satisfying things, i highly wish christians could experience more of that myself included.

Okay. Well, you're just saying these things are so. You don't offer any grounding in God's word for these claims you're making. But God's word is the prime source and authority for all Christian belief and practice, not your experience. How do you know you aren't totally deceived in what you've experienced? The devil is in the business of deceiving people with subtle counterfeits of spiritual living. How do you tell what is and isn't a devilish counterfeit? First of all, by looking at your experience under the light of God's word. If it isn't in Scripture, if it isn't taught to us as a spiritual truth and practice in the Bible, then it should be looked at with great skepticism. My experience (and yours) can go very badly wrong; we can be very deceived about things; but God's word is never in error in those things it teaches to us about spiritual living. Why, then, put any weight in your feelings? Better by far to trust God's word to guide you, don't you think?

NBB said:
No christian life is not about receiveing and reflect only, thats not bad in itself, but we need to act and seek and pray or you may find that 'you don't receive because you don't ask' and sometimes it costs a lot of insisting and fighting and praying with the help of Jesus. But in the end its God who responds and does what we can't do.

I didn't go into any detail about what I meant by "receive, remain and reflect" but I can make a very strong case for these things being the fundamental "work" of the Christian life from Scripture. For example, you did not earn your salvation, did you? You didn't work to make your salvation happen, right? God's word says that it isn't by works of righteousness we have done that we are saved but by God's grace and the work of Christ on the cross in which we put our faith. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) We receive by faith the saving work of God. And we keep on receiving from God His power and transforming work all through our walk with Him (John 15:5; Philippians 2:13; Romans 8:13, etc.). We can't walk with Him any other way. We have no strength of our own to create the life of Christ in which God wants us to live every day.

Yes, we do have things God commands us in His word to do. But on what basis do we do what He has commanded? Do we try to do for God? Or does He do for us? What does Scripture say? Philippians 2:12-13 explains how it all works. We can only work out what God first worked into us. This is what I mean by "reflect." We just manifest the work of God in us, we don't manufacture that work for God, which is what so many Christians try to do.

You wrote, "But in the end its God who responds and does what we can't do." So, how does this work, exactly? Jesus said, "Without me, you can nothing." (John 15:5) Not something, not a bit, not even a tiny bit. NOTHING. If we can't do anything, then God must do it all, right?

NBB said:
Sorry to be that person but if you never 'felt' or 'sensed' or 'received' some spiritual good from God ever you are a bit on the 'dry' side of things and should seek God and pray more and have more hunger for him. Because there is so much God can do. But if you take offense... well i just mean with this the best.

I've got a pretty thick skin. No offense taken. I have had much experience of God on a daily basis, but it has been the experience the Bible says I will have, not the experience you say I should have. Every day, God convicts me of sin (John 16:8), teaches me more of His truth (John 14:26; 16:13), strengthens me in times of temptation and trial (Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13); disciplines me when He needs to (Hebrews 12:5-11) and forms in me more and more the Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). He causes me to rejoice in Himself and to glorify Him (John 16:14). And so on. How about you? It seems to me, my experience of God is quite full without needing any of the sensations you think I should experience.

NBB said:
I may be wrong, but I bet you also believe deliverance is not for today or not for christians or something like that, but christians even can have so much spiritual problems and we don't realize until God shows and start revealing, and then we can be free of those.

I'm not sure what you mean by "deliverance." I certainly believe in demonic oppression and possession of people and the power of God to free them. My grandfather regularly dealt with this sort of thing in his ministry as evangelist and pastor. I have come right up nose-to-nose with demonic oppression, too. But what my grandfather did in helping people to win free of occult powers may not be what you're talking about...

NBB said:
I myself have much to improve don't 'worry' about that. Sometimes people with lots of errors are blessed by God anyways.

Yes, there is a common grace God bestows upon all. He makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust - and the sunshine, too.

TruthSeek3r · Nov 16, 2020

aiki said:
But the Bible does tell me that I can find within it all I need to know about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. The Bible informs me on everything I need to know to walk well with God (Psalms 119:11, 105; Psalms 19:7-12; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 1 Peter 2:2). So, I should expect that if feeling sensations of the Holy Spirit, or chasing after high emotion, or walking the wilderness to provoke God to give me some powerful sense of His presence are things I ought to do, then the Bible will tell me so. But it doesn't.

Jeremiah 33:1-3
Moreover the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah the second time, while he was yet shut up in the court of the prison, saying, 2 Thus saith the Lord the maker thereof, the Lord that formed it, to establish it; the Lord is his name; 3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

TruthSeek3r · Nov 16, 2020

aiki said:
Goodness! No! I think his story is real, that is, he did what he said he did and felt what he said he felt. But is it the right way to deal with God? No. Not as far as I can tell from Scripture. Did Paul actually meet with God? I'm pretty doubtful that he did. I suspect after winding himself up for months he may finally have unconsciously created his own "supernatural moment with God."

In other words, you are claiming that Paul Washer unconsciously fabricated an hallucination. This is an interesting hypothesis. Are you basing this on studies from Psychology, Neuroscience or any related field, or is this mere speculation of yours?

aiki said:
This seems far more likely to me given that Scripture - particularly the NT - never tells us to do anything like what Paul W. did to find deep, personal communion with God.

Luke 11:5-13
5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.

9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Luke 4:14 (Jesus after 40 days of fasting in the desert)
14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.

Genesis 32:24-30
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. 28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” 29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

Jeremiah 29:10-14
10 This is what the Lord says: “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my good promise to bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”

NBB · Nov 16, 2020

aiki said:
Okay. Well, you're just saying these things are so. You don't offer any grounding in God's word for these claims you're making. But God's word is the prime source and authority for all Christian belief and practice, not your experience. How do you know you aren't totally deceived in what you've experienced? The devil is in the business of deceiving people with subtle counterfeits of spiritual living. How do you tell what is and isn't a devilish counterfeit? First of all, by looking at your experience under the light of God's word. If it isn't in Scripture, if it isn't taught to us as a spiritual truth and practice in the Bible, then it should be looked at with great skepticism. My experience (and yours) can go very badly wrong; we can be very deceived about things; but God's word is never in error in those things it teaches to us about spiritual living. Why, then, put any weight in your feelings? Better by far to trust God's word to guide you, don't you think?

I didn't go into any detail about what I meant by "receive, remain and reflect" but I can make a very strong case for these things being the fundamental "work" of the Christian life from Scripture. For example, you did not earn your salvation, did you? You didn't work to make your salvation happen, right? God's word says that it isn't by works of righteousness we have done that we are saved but by God's grace and the work of Christ on the cross in which we put our faith. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) We receive by faith the saving work of God. And we keep on receiving from God His power and transforming work all through our walk with Him (John 15:5; Philippians 2:13; Romans 8:13, etc.). We can't walk with Him any other way. We have no strength of our own to create the life of Christ in which God wants us to live every day.

Yes, we do have things God commands us in His word to do. But on what basis do we do what He has commanded? Do we try to do for God? Or does He do for us? What does Scripture say? Philippians 2:12-13 explains how it all works. We can only work out what God first worked into us. This is what I mean by "reflect." We just manifest the work of God in us, we don't manufacture that work for God, which is what so many Christians try to do.

You wrote, "But in the end its God who responds and does what we can't do." So, how does this work, exactly? Jesus said, "Without me, you can nothing." (John 15:5) Not something, not a bit, not even a tiny bit. NOTHING. If we can't do anything, then God must do it all, right?

I've got a pretty thick skin. No offense taken. I have had much experience of God on a daily basis, but it has been the experience the Bible says I will have, not the experience you say I should have. Every day, God convicts me of sin (John 16:8), teaches me more of His truth (John 14:26; 16:13), strengthens me in times of temptation and trial (Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13); disciplines me when He needs to (Hebrews 12:5-11) and forms in me more and more the Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). He causes me to rejoice in Himself and to glorify Him (John 16:14). And so on. How about you? It seems to me, my experience of God is quite full without needing any of the sensations you think I should experience.

I'm not sure what you mean by "deliverance." I certainly believe in demonic oppression and possession of people and the power of God to free them. My grandfather regularly dealt with this sort of thing in his ministry as evangelist and pastor. I have come right up nose-to-nose with demonic oppression, too. But what my grandfather did in helping people to win free of occult powers may not be what you're talking about...

Yes, there is a common grace God bestows upon all. He makes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust - and the sunshine, too.

Next time when you feel something from the spirit of God come back to tell me the spirit of God doesn't feel because its an 'spirit' inert or something, i don't know where that idea comes from, if you don't feel soemthing in this earth you will in heaven anyway. Better if we get some of that in the earth too why not.

TruthSeek3r · Nov 16, 2020

By the way, here is an interesting short clip to contribute to our discussion on Paul Washer:

(Sermon Clip) Persevere in Prayer Until God Comes Down by Paul Washer

And here another one:

(Sermon Clip) Crying Out In Prayer All Night In the Snow by Paul Washer

How can I bring the presence of God into my room or other "intimate" place?

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