When do the biblical days begin?

guevaraj · Nov 11, 2020

imge said:
The thing you might not be taking in consideration is this scripture is not some obscure scripture. I believe the Seventh day Adventist church was built on wanting to believe the Word of God and not mad-made laws and have gone against the majority of churches to stand up to what the Bible teaches over man-made traditions. I think the scripture is clear that the day begins at sunset and ends at sunset. You might want to consider all the pastors in our entire church, who have studied the Bible scriptures intensely has not skimmed over these passage because they didn't understand. I really do not think that is the case. I will pray you can get some resolution on this so you can keep Holy God's special day the way He intended. God Bless

Sister, why did the angel tell us to read carefully and there you will find "when it is" if it remains the same? We had changed "what even is" from 6 pm to sundown, but we have not changed "when it is". We still assume that evening takes place at the beginning of the day when the angel said that we would understand more in the future. I, in the future, have understood that evening takes place in the middle of the first day by being "directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath" due to the units of the 2300 year prophecy. I have understood more as the angel said!

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, Page 116)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Nov 12, 2020

HARK! said:
Step 1: Define Eden

Brother, the site on Earth where God taught us the count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath.

HARK! said:
Do you know the difference between Eden, and the Garden of Eden? Please explain the difference. Please cite your sources.

"Eden" is where on Earth the "Garden of Eden" contained the tree of life. After sin, Adam and Eve were prevented from eating from the tree of life in the Garden of Eden so they would not live forever.

The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. (Genesis 3:21-24 NIV)

HARK! said:
Can to tell me the location of each? Please cite your sources.

I don't think that information is revealed, like revealed in Genesis is the first day from first light to light again in the morning and later days from morning to morning until the first Sabbath from morning to morning.

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Nov 12, 2020

HARK! said:
Those are your words, not YHWH's. I follow Yahshua, as he followed YHWH's Torah, not our own understanding, not the traditions of men.

Brother, I'm not making it up, it comes from what God has revealed in His word. The beginning of our creation separated from the beginning of everything comes from working backwards from the end of the first day to the beginning of the first day to learn that everything that is before the light is before the creation week.

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29 NIV)

HARK! said:
YHWH is not the author of confusion. If he had created the earth the week before the week of creation; I believe that he would have said so. He didn't speak of another week. he included it in the week from the beginning.

He said it in Genesis, but not everything revealed is easy, it is necessary to love the truth in God's word to find its treasure. I discovered that when God makes a time holy, He sets it in that time zone, separating the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week by setting it in the Eden time zone. That is why Israel remembers the Eden Sabbath that is not a day of the week in Israel but falls between two days of the week in Israel, joining the night of the sixth day and the light of the seventh day in Israel.

Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? (1 Corinthians 3:1-4 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Nov 12, 2020

HARK! said:
There was no sun on the first day… What is the greater luminary that rules the day; and on what day was it created?

Brother, the word "evening" which means sunset reveals that the sun is the greater light from the first day. It’s obvious that the greater light is present from day one for its purpose to count the days already listed before the fourth day. The use of the “waw-consecutive” on the fourth day continues events that end chronologically after the start of the fourth day. On the fourth day, added is the lessor light of the moon to go with the greater light to complete God's plan for these two lights in the sky. All phrases in red are a single word from the original language in “waw-consecutive” form. The “waw-consecutive” form tells us that there is a chronological continuation of events with something new added on day four, the moon, which is not necessary before day four, while the sun was necessary to count the earlier days from the first day.

And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. (Genesis 1:14-19 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

clefty · Nov 13, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, I'm not making it up, it comes from what God has revealed in His word. The beginning of our creation separated from the beginning of everything comes from working backwards from the end of the first day to the beginning of the first day to learn that everything that is before the light is before the creation week.

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:29 NIV)

He said it in Genesis, but not everything revealed is easy, it is necessary to love the truth in God's word to find its treasure. I discovered that when God makes a time holy, He sets it in that time zone, separating the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week by setting it in the Eden time zone. That is why Israel remembers the Eden Sabbath that is not a day of the week in Israel but falls between two days of the week in Israel, joining the night of the sixth day and the light of the seventh day in Israel.

Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? (1 Corinthians 3:1-4 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I have asked you for clarity before but...nothing

but I ask again:

“ I discovered that when God makes a time holy, He sets it in that time zone, separating the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week by setting it in the Eden time zone. That is why Israel remembers the Eden Sabbath that is not a day of the week in Israel but falls between two days of the week in Israel, joining the night of the sixth day and the light of the seventh day in Israel.“

Care to share your work? Citations?

This “biblical days start in the morning” teaching is already “out there” so need to clarify and not cause to stumble please...

clefty · Nov 13, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, the word "evening" which means sunset reveals that the sun is the greater light from the first day. It’s obvious that the greater light is present from day one for its purpose to count the days already listed before the fourth day. The use of the “waw-consecutive” on the fourth day continues events that end chronologically after the start of the fourth day. On the fourth day, added is the lessor light of the moon to go with the greater light to complete God's plan for these two lights in the sky. All phrases in red are a single word from the original language in “waw-consecutive” form. The “waw-consecutive” form tells us that there is a chronological continuation of events with something new added on day four, the moon, which is not necessary before day four, while the sun was necessary to count the earlier days from the first day.

And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. (Genesis 1:14-19 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

...no indication the sun and moon were made on separate days...

Day and night are now the result of the world spinning or the sky...

guevaraj · Nov 13, 2020

clefty said:
I have asked you for clarity before but...nothing but I ask again: “ I discovered that when God makes a time holy, He sets it in that time zone, separating the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week by setting it in the Eden time zone. That is why Israel remembers the Eden Sabbath that is not a day of the week in Israel but falls between two days of the week in Israel, joining the night of the sixth day and the light of the seventh day in Israel.“ Care to share your work? Citations?

Brother, happy Sabbath! My work is as follows: having understood that the first day ends in "morning", I work backwards to the beginning of the first day to learn that everything that is before the light is before the creation week, a time not specified before creation week. The first day is from first light to light again in the morning and later days from morning to morning. What we learn from the passage below is that the "evening" falls in the middle of the first day.

first light->"day" half<-evening->"night" half<-morning

and later days.

morning->"day" half<-evening->"night" half<-morning

The citation I use to arrive at this understanding is the following:

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Nov 13, 2020

clefty said:
...no indication the sun and moon were made on separate days... Day and night are now the result of the world spinning or the sky...

Brother, everything necessary to count the days, mainly the sun, was present from the first day to fulfill its purpose of establishing the count of days before the fourth day. The evidence that tells us that the sun was present from day one is the word "evening", which means sunset. This is further verified by using the "waw-consecutive" form of the verbs on day four that continue a chronological sequence of events that started earlier with something else added on day four to complete the work. What was not necessary before the fourth day is the moon. Added was the moon on the fourth day to complete the chronological events earlier than the fourth day that God explained are necessary from the first day to count the days.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

clefty · Nov 13, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, happy Sabbath!

you must be on the other side of this ball of dirt...thanks though

My work is as follows: having understood that the first day ends in "morning", I work backwards to the beginning of the first day to learn that everything that is before the light is before the creation week, a time not specified before creation week. The first day is from first light to light again in the morning and later days from morning to morning. What we learn from the passage below is that the "evening" falls in the middle of the first day.

first light->"day" half<-evening->"night" half<-morning

and later days.

morning->"day" half<-evening->"night" half<-morning

The citation I use to arrive at this understanding is the following:

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

yes but this:

"I discovered that when God makes a time holy, He sets it in that time zone, separating the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week by setting it in the Eden time zone. That is why Israel remembers the Eden Sabbath that is not a day of the week in Israel but falls between two days of the week in Israel, joining the night of the sixth day and the light of the seventh day in Israel"

remains unclear...

From what I have read Jews added the Friday night its candle lighting from when they returned from Babylon. Is that what you mean by Eden time zone? That Babylon is closer to where Eden was and thus they begin their Sabbath a WHOLE 12 HOURS earlier? namely Friday at sundown?

Or is that why you have Eden on the international time line?

You really need to clarify yourself please...this topic is already "not kosher"

maybe you're too far away...lol

clefty · Nov 13, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, everything necessary to count the days, mainly the sun, was present from the first day

you have not yet established that...He HIMSELF is LIGHT and could have sufficed for DAY into Evening...for 3 days and thus when creating the TWO lights He placed them into HIS CADENCE...

I have not come across anything in Kabballah or other Jewish mysticism that sheds light on that...lol

to fulfill its purpose of establishing the count of days before the fourth day.

again the SUN may NOT have been needed...He ALONE is an IMMORTAL consuming FIRE

The evidence that tells us that the sun was present from day one is the word "evening", which means sunset.

well yes...technically in English the word "sun" is in "sunset" but it could be His LIGHT...dimming into NIGHT...interesting it is not called SUN but greater light...Hebrew has it first mentioned in chapter 15...but we need the Hebrew scholars

This is further verified by using the "waw-consecutive" form of the verbs on day four

need more here

that continue a chronological sequence of events that started earlier with something else added on day four to complete the work. What was not necessary before the fourth day is the moon.

I only see it as sun AND moon...made, to rule, AND set to shine on day four...

Added was the moon on the fourth day to complete the chronological events earlier than the fourth day that God explained are necessary from the first day to count the days.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

ok...well trying to understand...

but still see it as He WAS THE LIGHT for 3 days...then made and set the sun moon and stars on day 4 INTO His cadence...7 days ONE of rest which "breaks" into the next week...

this cadence He stamped into nature...waves, light waves, sound waves, all have a 1/7 proportion...is WHY we have seven notes and seven colors...waves break at 1 to 7...

guevaraj · Nov 14, 2020

clefty said:
yes but this: "I discovered that when God makes a time holy, He sets it in that time zone, separating the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week by setting it in the Eden time zone. That is why Israel remembers the Eden Sabbath that is not a day of the week in Israel but falls between two days of the week in Israel, joining the night of the sixth day and the light of the seventh day in Israel" remains unclear...

Brother, happy Sabbath! The understanding of what it means for God to make a time "holy" comes from comparing how Israel "remembers" the Sabbath and the rise of the first Sabbath in Eden.

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. (Exodus 20:8-1 NIV)

One solution was if it was remembered in the Eden time zone, to explain why the Sabbath does not fall in Israel on a weekday.

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. (Genesis 2:1-3 NIV)

Verified is this leap of faith by a prediction. If remembered is the Sabbath in Israel in the Eden time zone, then the Sabbath in Israel tells us where Eden was. The proof that verifies this leap of faith is that the Sabbath in Israel points to the International Date Line (IDL) as the site of Eden where God taught us the count the days with the week. Everyone assumed that the IDL is a place invented by humans when it is in all of us from the beginning, established by God when He taught us to count the days with the week before we spread out into the world and took our count of the days with us. It all starts with understanding the first day in Genesis and realizing that Israel remembers a Sabbath that is not a day of the week in Israel as it was in Eden.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Dec 22, 2020

Pointed out to me recently was this passage from the book Education as evidence that Ellen G. White confirms that composed is a day of the singular period from an evening to a morning. However, I will show below that she is not saying what they think when she uses the plural “periods” and not the singular form of the word.

Inferences erroneously drawn from facts observed in nature have, however, led to supposed conflict between science and revelation; and in the effort to restore harmony, interpretations of Scripture have been adopted that undermine and destroy the force of the word of God. Geology has been thought to contradict the literal interpretation of the Mosaic record of the creation. Millions of years, it is claimed, were required for the evolution of the earth from chaos; and in order to accommodate the Bible to this supposed revelation of science, the days of creation are assumed to have been vast, indefinite periods, covering thousands or even millions of years.
Such a conclusion is wholly uncalled for. The Bible record is in harmony with itself and with the teaching of nature. Of the first day employed in the work of creation is given the record, “The evening and the morning were the first day.” Genesis 1:5. And the same in substance is said of each of the first six days of creation week. Each of these periods Inspiration declares to have been a day consisting of evening and morning, like every other day since that time. In regard to the work of creation itself the divine testimony is, “He spake, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast.” Psalm 33:9. With Him who could thus call into existence unnumbered worlds, how long a time would be required for the evolution of the earth from chaos? In order to account for His works, must we do violence to His word? (Education, page 129)

Notice the definite article in the Genesis quote and her use of the words without the definite article. When she mentions “evening and morning” she is referring to a list of words and not the singular period cited in Genesis. She is saying that a day consists of the plural “periods” bordered by the words evening and morning. This previous passage shows that our language is flexible and we can misunderstand if we don't read it carefully. We are prone to blind ourselves to the correct understanding when we have a wrong way of looking at it that ignores the details. She is not saying what we think she is saying when she uses the plural “periods” and not the singular form to defend our tradition. She is not saying that made up is a day only of the period between an evening and a morning, which is half a day when she used the plural form and not the singular form of “periods”. No one disputes that she knew that a Sabbath in Israel consists of two “periods” that God named night and day with those border words from the first evening to the morning, followed by a second period from the morning to the second evening. What she is saying is that each day has the words evening and morning to border its periods, but she is not saying that a day consists only of the period from evening to morning, which is half of the first day, the night half. Language allows a change of meaning if a single word is plural or singular. Her use of the plural word “periods” confirms the first day from morning to morning that Israel remembers from evening to evening, to keep the Sabbath holy.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

Our church does not realize that God is using the Sunday tradition to give us time to grow out of our Saturday tradition, because God will not help to unify us on a human tradition. God is not helping to convict Sunday keepers while Saturday keepers are keeping a human tradition in contradiction to the biblical Sabbath. The never-ending fight between Saturday and Sunday is because of the Saturday tradition. God is not allowing us to unify Christianity in a human tradition. We must correct our Sabbath keeping and then God will help us correct others to keep the Sabbath. Consider how our tradition ends the first day in an evening when it plainly says that the first day ends in a "morning". Human tradition has assumed that given is a beginning for the first day when no beginning is given and God expects us to find the beginning by working backwards from the given end of the first day. When it only takes one to find the other and God chose to give the end and not the beginning, our tradition forced our will for a beginning by rejecting the end as it shows our wrong assumption.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

HARK! · Dec 29, 2020

guevaraj said:
Israel remembers the Sabbath in the Eden time zone, confirmed by the International Date Line (IDL) because the Sabbath in Israel reveals where God taught us to count the days with the week, pointing to the site of our origin.

Since your entire postulate hinges on the sun rising in Eden; until you can tell me the coordinates of Eden; I can understand why you would be puzzled as to when the Sabbath begins.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Dec 30, 2020

clefty said:
you have not yet established that...He HIMSELF is LIGHT and could have sufficed for DAY into Evening...for 3 days and thus when creating the TWO lights He placed them into HIS CADENCE...

again the SUN may NOT have been needed...He ALONE is an IMMORTAL consuming FIRE

It is the uncreated Ohr (light)...

guevaraj · Dec 30, 2020

HARK! said:
Since your entire postulate hinges on the sun rising in Eden; until you can tell me the coordinates of Eden; I can understand why you would be puzzled as to when the Sabbath begins.

Brother, I'm not "puzzled as to when the Sabbath begins". Every Sabbath, regardless of your place in the world, starts together. I don't need to know where Eden is because I know where Israel is. You only need one of the two sites to know when to start the Sabbath. We start the Sabbath together when it begins in Israel.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

HARK! · Dec 30, 2020

guevaraj said:
Brother, I'm not "puzzled as to when the Sabbath begins". Every Sabbath, regardless of your place in the world, starts together. I don't need to know where Eden is because I know where Israel is. You only need one of the two sites to know when to start the Sabbath. We start the Sabbath together when it begins in Israel.

It would seem too that you are puzzled by the difference between dependent and independent variables.

You said in the OP that "Israel remembers the Sabbath in the Eden time zone, confirmed by the International Date Line (IDL)."

Israel re,members the Sabbath at sundown in Israel; and when Israel was in the wilderness; they remembered the Sabbath by sundown in the wilderness. There was no IDL at that time. the IDL is a fabrication of man.

That said, the garden of Eden is not Eden; and neither Eden nor the Garden of Eden are on the IDL.

The fact that you can't tell me where Eden is, tells me that you have confirmed nothing but the fact that you don't know when the day begins is Eden. Since you postulate that when the day begins in Israel, is contingent on when the day begins in Eden; then without knowing the coordinates of Eden, you have demonstrated that you don't know when the day begins in Israel.

When the day begins in Israel, has no more to do with Eden, than it does with Bear Dance, Montana.

guevaraj said:
This is such a remarkable find that I have written a book on the subject titled: “Proof of God in the International Date Line: Site of our Origin”.

How many people have actually bought into this?

SabbathBlessings · Dec 31, 2020

HARK! said:
How many people have actually bought into this?

Thanks HARK! for bringing this to our attention. As a FYI this is not an Adventist view despite this poster using the Adventist logo .

@guevaraj Did you receive written permission to use the Adventist logo?

Trademark and Logo Usage | Adventist.org
The registered trademark may be used by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, its entities, institutions, and churches, as authorized by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, its divisions, unions, and conferences.

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guevaraj · Jan 3, 2021

HARK! said:
It would seem too that you are puzzled by the difference between dependent and independent variables.

Brother, relative is the dependent to the independent, but this is more like solving a two-variable equation with one unknown. We have redundancy in what is revealed. We know the site of one of the two places in the relationship equation between them, which allows you to solve for the unknown place. To keep the Sabbath all over the world all you need is the relationship without the need to solve for the unknown to know how to start the Sabbath. The relationship is that we keep it together everywhere, regardless of your place in the world. Solving for the site of Eden is an unnecessary added benefit that verifies and gives us historical evidence that God is with us from the beginning, seeing that God set the site of the International Date Line. Something done at our beginning that no one can alter except by going back in time to change our beginning. A technology thought not possible because it allows a paradox. The grandfather paradox.

HARK! said:
You said in the OP that "Israel remembers the Sabbath in the Eden time zone, confirmed by the International Date Line (IDL)."

The Bible reveals how to keep the Sabbath around the world without knowing the place of Eden. What the Bible reveals is that the Sabbath is a time together for everyone, regardless of your place on Earth. Knowing how to keep it in Israel by direct command of God is all we need to keep it everywhere because we know from the Bible that it is kept together for all and does not circle the earth with the week, but is independent of the week, when God made holy the seventh day of creation. Making it holy means setting it in that time zone.

HARK! said:
Israel re,members the Sabbath at sundown in Israel; and when Israel was in the wilderness; they remembered the Sabbath by sundown in the wilderness. There was no IDL at that time. the IDL is a fabrication of man.

An interesting point is that without God making the Sabbath holy, we would never have known the reason for the site of the International Date Line (IDL). Although set is it at the week of creation in the count of days without the need for the Sabbath, it is because of the Sabbath that God revealed that He set the site of the International Date Line and that it does not come from us. People discovered and did not create the International Date Line set in creation week before the fall into sin of our first parents. We wouldn't know that the IDL came from God if it weren't revealed by the Sabbath.

HARK! said:
That said, the garden of Eden is not Eden; and neither Eden nor the Garden of Eden are on the IDL.

The garden is east of Eden and Eden is where God taught us to count the days before extending to the rest of the world, carrying on our tradition of counting the days with the week that established the International Date Line without us aware of it until the Sabbath revealed it.

HARK! said:
The fact that you can't tell me where Eden is, tells me that you have confirmed nothing but the fact that you don't know when the day begins is Eden. Since you postulate that when the day begins in Israel, is contingent on when the day begins in Eden; then without knowing the coordinates of Eden, you have demonstrated that you don't know when the day begins in Israel.

I just need to know that Israel remembers the Sabbath at a different time than the local seventh day to know that the Sabbath remembered is together and not separately where it is Sabbath for some and not for others around the world. The site of Eden is not necessary to know this and serves as a confirmation of understanding and to show that God set the International Date Line as evidence of His presence with us from the beginning.

HARK! said:
When the day begins in Israel, has no more to do with Eden, than it does with Bear Dance, Montana.

So how do you explain the Sabbath in Israel from evening to evening, 10-hour earlier, to the seventh local day in Israel from morning to morning, as set in Genesis falls on the International Date Line as the site of our origin? The site where God taught us to count the days with the week to remember the Sabbath before we spread out around the world taking our tradition of counting days with us setting the International Date Line without our realizing it until these last days.

HARK! said:
How many people have actually bought into this?

I had a bather for mom who was not a Seventh-day Adventist who believed me. She had studied the Bible on her own and was familiar with other interpretive controversy. She saw immediately that the evidence was overwhelming. My mother, before I knew about her dementia, believed me and defended me with my uncle. I was in the hospital recently with my mother because she contracted an infection and I met a nurse who is a Seventh-day Adventist and gave him a copy of my book. He convinced was only by what Genesis reveals without needing further confirmation and told his father who is a pastor. His father wanted to talk to me. I told him that I am willing to talk to his father, but that I get a lot of resistance for this. I told him that my uncle, who is a retired church evangelist, does not believe me and that my mother’s bather, who is the daughter of missionaries, does not believe me, although she thinks it is worth discussing and helped me write my book, she does not believe me. Convinced was he by comparing what Genesis reveals with an evening-to-evening Sabbath in Israel.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

HARK! · Jan 3, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, relative is the dependent to the independent

Exactly. That's my point.

guevaraj said:
but this is more like solving a two-variable equation with one unknown.

I think that you're oversimplifying it; but if you believe that it's as simple as 1 + X = 2; why haven't you solved for X?

guevaraj said:
We have redundancy in what is revealed.

I'm still waiting for you to reveal the location of Eden. O know this might seem like a redundant request; but without that, your argument crumbles.

guevaraj said:
We know the site of one of the two places in the relationship equation between them, which allows you to solve for the unknown place.

I haven't seen your equation. Let alone your solution.

guevaraj said:
To keep the Sabbath all over the world all you need is the relationship without the need to solve for the unknown to know how to start the Sabbath.

I'd rather just stick with what is known, and provable.

Despite my belief that you are oversimplifying your mystery equation, your equation and the factors, are still unknown. I'd like to check your work; before I accept your hunch over scripture, and thousands of years of tradition.

guevaraj said:
Solving for the site of Eden is an unnecessary added benefit that verifies and gives us historical evidence that God is with us from the beginning

Until you solve for that site; there is no benefit.

guevaraj said:
seeing that God set the site of the International Date Line.

No he didn't. The IDL is a fabrication of man. We've been over this already.

Repeating your bare assertion fallacies, doesn't lend any credibility your wild conjecture.

See: Burden of Proof.

guevaraj said:
Something done at our beginning that no one can alter except by going back in time to change our beginning. A technology thought not possible because it allows a paradox. The grandfather paradox

I'm not the one attempting to alter the way that the Sabbath has been practiced since recorded time; but be sure to let us know if you have any success at building your time machine. If it works out; everyone, all over the world, will be able to honor the Sabbath at the same time, from evening to evening.

HARK! · Jan 3, 2021

guevaraj said:
The Bible reveals how to keep the Sabbath around the world without knowing the place of Eden.

If Eden is irrelevant to your argument; then why bother to mention it. It seems like your argument is evolving. The Bible does reveal to keep the Sabbath. It's from evening to evening; and YHWH gave us a sign in the heavens to keep it by.

guevaraj said:
What the Bible reveals is that the Sabbath is a time together for everyone, regardless of your place on Earth.

No it doesn't. The sun sets at a different time for every point on the earth, even in Eden.

guevaraj said:
Knowing how to keep it in Israel by direct command of God is all we need to keep it everywhere because we know from the Bible that it is kept together for all and does not circle the earth with the week, but is independent of the week, when God made holy the seventh day of creation. Making it holy means setting it in that time zone.

Again, Moses kept the Sabbath in the wilderness. The wilderness is not in Israel. Try as you may; you can't refute these facts.

When do the biblical days begin?

When do the biblical days begin?

morning

evening

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

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an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

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an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

שמע

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

שמע

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an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins

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