Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm assuming Amil is true in this thread, because it isn't a Amil vs Premil thread.

The word "resurrection" is always and only found in the context of the resurrection of the body from the dead in the N.T, and the second death only has no power over those who have already been resurrected in the body: OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

"Knowing that when Christ was raised from the dead, He dies no more; death no longer has dominion over Him." Rom 6:9

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Rev 20:6

The full part of the passage says,

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:4-6

Hence @DavidPT's OP: Amil is incompatible with NOSAS.

Amil is compatible with OSAS, but not with NOSAS.


Since the Two Witnesses are bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation chapter 11, the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation.


The Apostle John also recorded the verse below.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Do the "souls" in heaven return with Christ at the battle of Armageddon, or after the battle?

.
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,166.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,166.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the Bible the word "resurrection" is used only in reference to the resurrection of the body.

It isn't just a case of semantics. "Spiritual resurrection" is Chrstianeze and is talking about something that does not exist because the word resurrection in the Bible only refers to resurrection of the body from death. Here are the verses in the N.T talking about the resurrection: OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

Take note of the Greek words found in the verses you quoted below:

Ephesians 2:4-6 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with (Greek: συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō) Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with (Greek: συνεγείρω synegeírō) Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō
to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively):--quicken together with.

υνεγείρω synegeírō
to rouse (from death) in company with,
i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

The only way the above happens is through, and because of our spiritual birth from above. Through our spiritual birth from above, Jesus says:

John 14:20 At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

John 17:21 That they all may be one (Greek εἷς heîs), as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one (Greek εἷς heîs) in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

εἷς heîs
(including the neuter (etc.) ἕν E(/N hén);
a primary numeral;
one:--a(-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some.

Again, the only way the above happens is through and because of our spiritual birth from above. We are not "spiritually resurrected from death" because the word "resurrection" implies resurrection from physical death wherever it is found in the Bible, and in any case we had not previously been born spiritually, lived spiritually, and died spiritually.

Through our spiritual birth from above, we share in Christ's resurrection. In the Bible the word "resurrection" is used only in terms of the resurrection of the body. We are raised with Christ's bodily resurrection. The Greek word is synegeiro. This is because of our spiritual birth.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I have showed you the error of your position several times, yet you choose to dismiss the sacred text. Clearly your fight is with Scripture. The Bible repeatedly shows that the Christian experiences two resurrections - spiritual and physical.

So if a Christian was spiritually dead before salvation and they are now spiritually alive, by what means does Scripture say we are brought from death into newness of life?

The only way that we can transition from death to life (both spiritually and physically) is by way of resurrection. There is no other way! This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Two resurrections result for the believer from Christ’s one resurrection. Man needs both spiritually redeemed and physically redeemed. When one gets saved they are spiritually redeemed. But they are not physically redeemed until resurrection day. His “first resurrection” secured both resurrections for those who will put their faith in Christ.

Romans 6:3-6 says, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection (or) anastasis (Strong’s 386): Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

There are two Greek words used in Romans 6:3-10 that are used to describe the resurrection of Christ, and that are significantly in turn purposely equated to the believer and the new birth experience; they are egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and anastasis (Strong’s 386). Such a correlation between these two diverse types of resurrection (physical and spiritual) is only secured through Christ’s sinless life, atoning death and glorious resurrection, enabling the believer to walk in resurrection power and “newness of life.” The believer here is therefore supernaturally transferred from a condition of death into one of life. This undoubtedly relates (1) to a spiritual state, and, (2), to the here in now. It cannot relate to the physical resurrection which is still future and which occurs at the second coming of Christ.

The first word egeiro (Strong’s 1453) is used many times throughout the New Testament to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. These references are found in Matthew 14:2, 16:21, 17:9, 23, 20:19, 26:32, 27:63, 64, 28:6, 7, Mark 14:28, 16:6, 14, Luke 1:69, 9:22, 24:6, 34, John 2:19, 20, 22, 21:14, Acts 3:15, 4:10, 5:30, 10:40, 13:30, 37, Romans 4:24, 25, 6:4, 9, 7:4, 8:11, 34, 10:9, 1 Corinthians 6:14, 15:4, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 5:15, Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Peter 1:21.

Similarly, the other Greek word anastasis (Strong’s 386), which is identified several times in Scripture with the new birth spiritual resurrection is also used several times to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. It is derived from the root word anistemi (Strong’s 450). These are outlined in Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:34, 16:9, Luke 18:33, 24:7, 26, John 20:9, Acts 2:24, 31, 32, 3:26, 4:2, 33, 10:41, 13:33, 34, 17:3, 18, 26:23, Romans 15:12, Philippians 3:10 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 1 Peter 1:3, 3:21.

The same two Greek words that are repeatedly employed to describe Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead are also used in Ephesians 5:14 to describe the new birth experience of the believer. The sinner being commanded: Awake (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) thou that sleepest, and arise (or) anistemi (Strong’s 450) from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light (Ephesians 5:14).

The resurrection portrayed here is again not a physical resurrection, but, a spiritual resurrection in which the recipient (the sinner) receives the joy of salvation. Through this spiritual resurrection, the believer receives the “light” of God and is therefore spared the awful sentence of eternal wrath. The verb “arise” in this text specifically relates to salvation and is a metaphor describing the spiritual resurrection that Christians undergo when they are lifted from the grave of sin. It also demonstrates the blessing that follows this resurrection. The true child of God receives the blessed light of God’s dear Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord Himself declared in John 8:12, “I am the light of the world, he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” It is worth noting, Paul is speaking to first century Ephesian citizens in this reading, who lived at least 1,950 years away from the actual return of the Lord. He is offering them the opportunity of walking in the fullness of the resurrection life then. Moreover, this resurrection life is still available today to sinners that humbly bow their knee to Christ.

If the Premillennialist can see that there is a resurrection in the New Testament, pertaining to the believer, which precedes the physical resurrection, which releases a man from the punishment of the second death (eternal wrath) – involving the new birth experience, then he should be able to accept the fact that it is the “first resurrection.”

Luke 2:34 also records, “Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again anastasis (or resurrecting, Strong’s 386) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against.”

Matthew Henry explains in relation to this passage, “He (Jesus) is set for the rising again of many in Israel, that is, for the conversion of many to God that are dead and buried in sin, and for the consolation of many in God that are sunk and lost in sorrow and despair. Those whom he is set for the fall of may be the same with those whom he is set for the rising again of. He is set eis ptosin kai anastasin - for their fall, in order to their rising again; to humble and abase them, and bring them off from all confidence in themselves, that they may be exalted by relying on Christ; he wounds and then heals, Paul falls, and rises again”

The believer is raised from the grave of his sin and spiritual death at conversion, which of necessity must be a spiritual resurrection. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, “For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) the dead: Who delivered us (past tense) from so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense): in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us (future tense).”

This whole passage is concentrated upon the great eternal provision of spiritual deliverance. The word “raiseth” in this reading is a present active verb, therefore it is talking about a resurrection that is happening now, rather than the future physical resurrection. This is obviously speaking of spiritual resurrection, because it alone has been ongoing since Christ’s first (physical) resurrection. This will, of course, culminate with the general physical resurrection at His return.

Paul goes on then to emphasise the victorious ongoing hope that the risen saints have through salvation, regardless of what is arrayed against them. He is reminding the believer of the security that exists “in Christ.” Whilst justification is an act (when we are spiritually redeemed) and glorification also an act (when we are physically redeemed), sanctification is a process of making us more like Christ. In all three experiences Christ holds a firm grip upon His people. He looks after them, and sustains them along the way. Christ therefore has “delivered,” (past tense) “doth deliver” (currently) and “will yet deliver” (future tense) Hi sheep.

So the allusion to “God which raiseth the dead” is talking in a broad sense about the day of salvation (the here-and-now). It describes the ongoing spiritual process secured through Christ’s glorious resurrection from the dead. For someone to move from death and the grave (in either the natural or the spiritual) to life (natural or spiritual) requires resurrection.

The same word repeatedly applied to Christ’s physical resurrection in the New Testament – egeiro – is here again used spiritually to describe the spiritual resurrection of the believer from the reality of spiritual death. It shows a present realisation and victorious triumph over that state in this testimony of Paul. This reading does not at all indicate that the believer will not experience natural death, no, but rather, that he wouldn’t experience spiritual death. It positively outlines that through the spiritual (or first) resurrection the believer is rescued from entering into the awful realisation of the second death (eternal punishment).

Colossians 2:10-14 says, “ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ‘ye are risen with him’ (or) sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891) through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised (or) egeiro (Strong’s 1453) him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (or) suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

This explicit passage describes the act of salvation as a resurrection feat. Moreover, the raising of the forgiven child of God in resurrection power in salvation is in turn carefully identified with, and connected to, Christ’s glorious resurrection. It confirms that our hearts “are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” in salvation, and likens this supernatural work to a death, burial and resurrection. This reading shows how the child of God is “buried with him,” “quickened together with him,” and finally “risen with him.”

Before salvation we are carnally alive, but spiritually dead. Our natural man is alive and kicking but our spiritual man is totally unresponsive. So in order to shift from death to life our spiritual man must first experience the quickening power (or life giving touch) of the Holy Spirit in which our blind spiritual eyes are opened in order for us to see as God sees. In this he sees sin for what it is, putrid, ugly and destructive. He see that sin is an offence to God and that it must be punished. The Holy Spirit then shows the penitent sinner the way out – Jesus Christ and His shed blood at Calvary. He then trades His sin for Christ’s righteousness in salvation whereupon he is raised from the grave of his sin.

Salvation is a supernatural act in which God breathes spiritual life into the sinner through regeneration. He quickens the corpse through the work of the Spirit, enabling the sinner to recognise his plight and cry out for mercy. The sinner surrenders all confidence in self (he dies to self) and acknowledges his need of Christ. Spiritual resurrection results.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Since the Two Witnesses are bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation chapter 11, the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation.


The Apostle John also recorded the verse below.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Do the "souls" in heaven return with Christ at the battle of Armageddon, or after the battle?
The souls of the 2 witnesses never leave the body. In Revelation 20:4, the souls leave one body and enter a new body. There is a difference. Does only Jesus' soul return? The new body is already in heaven/Paradise. It is there waiting for those in Christ. It is not earthly, nor comes from the earth. Do we have two physical bodies, or like Paul states one dissolves and the next one is permanent? One corruptible and the next one incorruptible. One a tent from the earth that stops existing, the other from God that cannot be touched by the Second Death.

The first resurrection in Revelation is bodily not spiritual into Paradise. It is the only one of it's kind. The next resurrection is of the dead into the lake of fire.

Sorry, but the church was raptured and already resurrected in the 6th seal at the Second Coming of the Lamb. God on the throne also comes to earth to set up judgment at the 6th seal. At the 6th seal the Lamb will finish the rest of His earthly ministry. The separation of the sheep and goats. The harvest of the wheat. The destruction of those who destroy the earth. God and the Lamb are mentioned before the 7th seal. This is way before the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is just the Grand Finale.

God was Christ on the Cross. The Second time God is on the throne to judge the dead living on the earth. The goats and tares are the dead, not in Christ. The sheep is the restoration of Israel. Matthew 10:6 Matthew 15:24. This mission is the earthly ministry. The Second Coming is no different in this regard. This is the time God will show up and judge those taking care of the vineyard. In the first coming the vineyard was taken from the Jews, now the church will be judged and the vineyard will be taken from them, and given back to the lost sheep of Israel. That parable was open ended, because the owner had yet to come on the throne. The first coming was the death of the Son. The second coming is the reign of the Son.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The souls of the 2 witnesses never leave the body.

Please show us the text which proves your claim above, or did you make it up as your own private interpretation?

Where did their souls reside during the three and a half days while their bodies were dead?


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nothing could be further from the truth. I have showed you the error of your position several times, yet you choose to dismiss the sacred text. Clearly your fight is with Scripture.
Your opinion expressed above is not factual. I have shown you the error in what you assert many times. I have shown you that the words and verses (which you quoted in your post above) are not ever referring to a "spiritual" resurrection.

I have shown you from the Bible, that the Bible talks about (a) spiritual birth experienced by the believer, but not "spiritual" resurrection; and (b) resurrection from the dead where the resurrection being referred to is always physical resurrection of the body:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

Your assertion based on your opinion that "nothing could be further from the truth" does not make your belief about "spiritual" resurrection any more believable to anyone who studies the Bible's resurrection verses. You do not back up what you say with facts in your post, only with your opinions (yet I back up what I say with facts):

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

It would be so easy for me to say to you:

"Nothing could be further from the truth. I have showed you the error of your position several times, yet you choose to dismiss the sacred text. Clearly your fight is with Scripture."

I won't say it, because saying it does not prove my position any more than you saying it proves your position - I have gone and made a list of each and every "resurrection" verse in the N.T to prove the resurrection is always referring to a resurrection of the body.

The fallacy of "spiritual" resurrection may have been around for 1,500+ years - but it's not Biblical. Therefore when you assert that it is Biblical, and quote resurrection verses which speak only of physical resurrection, I could say to you, "Your fight is with scripture" - because I have quoted not just the references where those words you quote in your post below appear, but I quote the verses themselves, proving that wherever the very words referring to the resurrection you mention appear, they are always talking about the resurrection of the body, without exception:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses
The Bible repeatedly shows that the Christian experiences two resurrections - spiritual and physical.
False. The Bible repeatedly shows that the Christian experiences a spiritual birth which places him spiritually in Christ, thereby (through spiritual birth) being baptized into Christ's death, and being raised with (syneigeiro) Christ. The Bible repeatedly shows that the Christian will experience one resurrection - the resurrection of his body, and all the verses in the Bible speaking about resurrection and using the words anastasis, egeiro, synegeiro, anistemi, without exception refer to the resurrection of the body from death.

The Bible does not teach that we were previously born spiritually, lived spiritually and died spiritually so that we may experience a "spiritual" resurrection - instead the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, far from teaching us that we should be raised from the dead spiritually, taught us that we need to be born of the Spirit of God from above, without which spiritual birth the believer will not share in Christ's death and resurrection from physical death.

The Bible in its own context shows the above clearly in each and every verse talking about the resurrection:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,166.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your opinion expressed above is not factual. I have shown you the error in what you assert many times. I have shown you that the words and verses (which you quoted in your post above) are not ever referring to a "spiritual" resurrection.

I have shown you from the Bible, that the Bible talks about (a) spiritual birth experienced by the believer, but not "spiritual" resurrection; and (b) resurrection from the dead where the resurrection being referred to is always physical resurrection of the body:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

Your assertion based on your opinion that "nothing could be further from the truth" does not make your belief about "spiritual" resurrection any more believable to anyone who studies the Bible's resurrection verses. You do not back up what you say with facts in your post, only with your opinions (yet I back up what I say with facts):

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

It would be so easy for me to say to you:

"Nothing could be further from the truth. I have showed you the error of your position several times, yet you choose to dismiss the sacred text. Clearly your fight is with Scripture."

I won't say it, because saying it does not prove my position any more than you saying it proves your position - I have gone and made a list of each and every "resurrection" verse in the N.T to prove the resurrection is always referring to a resurrection of the body.

The fallacy of "spiritual" resurrection may have been around for 1,500+ years - but it's not Biblical. Therefore when you assert that it is Biblical, and quote resurrection verses which speak only of physical resurrection, I could say to you, "Your fight is with scripture" - because I have quoted not just the references where those words you quote in your post below appear, but I quote the verses themselves, proving that wherever the very words referring to the resurrection you mention appear, they are always talking about the resurrection of the body, without exception:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

False. The Bible repeatedly shows that the Christian experiences a spiritual birth which places him spiritually in Christ, thereby (through spiritual birth) being baptized into Christ's death, and being raised with (syneigeiro) Christ. The Bible repeatedly shows that the Christian will experience one resurrection - the resurrection of his body, and all the verses in the Bible speaking about resurrection and using the words anastasis, egeiro, synegeiro, anistemi, without exception refer to the resurrection of the body from death.

The Bible does not teach that we were previously born spiritually, lived spiritually and died spiritually so that we may experience a "spiritual" resurrection - instead the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, far from teaching us that we should be raised from the dead spiritually, taught us that we need to be born of the Spirit of God from above, without which spiritual birth the believer will not share in Christ's death and resurrection from physical death.

The Bible in its own context shows the above clearly in each and every verse talking about the resurrection:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

Obviously you do not believe in original sin or total depravity. If you do not grasp that how can you get this whole subject of dual resurrection. This is what Premil produces. One error leads to another. It is like a row of dominoes.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Obviously you do not believe in original sin or total depravity. If you do not grasp that how can you get this whole subject of dual resurrection. This is what Premil produces. One error leads to another. It is like a row of dominoes.
@sovereigngrace edited:
I do believe in original sin and total depravity.

You have no right to tell me what I do or do not believe in. I can only think that the only reason you do, is because your misunderstanding of the message of Christ and His apostles re: spiritual birth and physical resurrection, is making you become nasty towards those who see it right-side-up.

Resurrection.png
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The only way that we can transition from death to life (both spiritually and physically) is by way of resurrection. There is no other way! This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.
It was Christ's death and resurrection. Nothing we did or can do period. We are not the means of our own salvation, our own death, nor our own resurrection.

We were both physically and spiritually birthed, saw death, and experienced resurrection on the Cross. It only happened one time, not billions of times over the last 1990 years. Remember your question about Jesus performing millions of funerals for 1000 years? You have asked it 1000 times. It is time for you to consider your own question. It is ludicrous. Nor does the church have to wait to live until the GWT. And Revelation 20 is not a recap example of the point. Either you have to give up a last general resurrection that BABerean2 accuses me of, Revelation 20:4 happened at the Cross, or the Truth. Yes, the first two options are not God's plan or true.

The resurrection of the church is not a general resurrection for all. It is for those in Christ remaining on earth at the time of the Second Coming in the 6th seal. Revelation 20:4 is for the lost sheep of Israel, and the vineyard is now in their care, while the church is in Paradise. The GWT is for the dead in sheol and Death, not for any living human period. Those lost sheep of Israel taking care of the vineyard get a pass and do not face the GWT and the second death. That is the message of Revelation 20. Amil is just man made theology that literally trashes the truth of God's word with some contrived heresy that is now a theology ingrained in the church, God is about to judge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zao is life
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
This whole passage is concentrated upon the great eternal provision of spiritual deliverance. The word “raiseth” in this reading is a present active verb, therefore it is talking about a resurrection that is happening now, rather than the future physical resurrection. This is obviously speaking of spiritual resurrection, because it alone has been ongoing since Christ’s first (physical) resurrection. This will, of course, culminate with the general physical resurrection at His return.
Then why cannot physical Israel currently living today not be spiritually rebirthed in a day? It is not the physical resurrection of dead Jews. This can only happen after the church is removed and God Himself, and the Lamb are physically on the earth. Applying this verse only to the church is just plain wrong. It is the end of Adam's sinful control of the vineyard, even a carnal church, thinking they are spiritual. The Second Coming is the final restoration. There is nothing the church can do to change God's Will on the matter. Wrong theology is not helping, but spreading a spirit of antichrist. You post the truth, I agree. Interpretation needs tons of change. Call Revelation 20 something else if the word pre makes you physically sick, but it is not for the church in any way shape or form. Life will happen just as John wrote it in Revelation 20, and exactly as John put it chronologically.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since the Two Witnesses are bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation chapter 11, the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation.


The Apostle John also recorded the verse below.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Do the "souls" in heaven return with Christ at the battle of Armageddon, or after the battle?

.
The first death was Adam's death. The first resurrection is a resurrection from death, and it's Christ's resurrection. There can only be a 2nd resurrection if it takes place after the 2nd death.

For since death is through man, the resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Cor 15:21-22. And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, was made a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit. 1 Cor 15:45

The first person to be resurrected in Christ after Christ's resurrection, had part in the first resurrection. The last person to be resurrected in Christ, has part in the first resurrection.

You're adding resurrections to the only resurrection, which is Christ's.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Please show us the text which proves your claim above, or did you make it up as your own private interpretation?

Where did their souls reside during the three and a half days while their bodies were dead?


Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
From the text the soul remained in the body. It is your burden of proof to show where the two souls went any where. When their body was given life, both soul and body went to Paradise. What physical examination can be done to prove the soul cannot stay in a dead body? The soul never dies, but no where does God say a soul cannot stay in the body. It is not normal, that is a given, but nothing about the two witnesses is normal. In fact the soul leaving would be highly abnormal for them. The Spirit of life did not raise a dead soul. It raised a dead body. Do you think a living soul can raise up one's own dead body? Now who is assuming things by pointing out it took the Spirit of God to change the condition of the body? No where does it say God sent their souls back in to perform a bodily resurrection. Do you think they had a new soul like humanity in Genesis 1:27-28? Nope God never said the soul left, so their souls were just waiting until God brought their bodies back to life. In Revelation 20:4 it does say a soul was standing without a body, and that is also understood, no? In order to live, they had to be given new bodies. No where does it say their dead bodies were present. In that case do you say their body was there without a soul, and given life was God putting their soul back into their dead sinful body? What is off with these private interpretations that change God's Words?

In one case the soul was waiting in dead bodies. In the other case a bodily-less soul was waiting for a new body. In the Rapture the dead sinful body is changed around the soul in mid air. The two witnesses keep the same body. Seems to me the two witnesses were given a different body prior to the 42 months. No where does it even say their bodies were changed. The same body they were in for 42 months, lay dead, and was given life, never changed at all. Paying attention to the text, prevents one from just jumping to false conclusions. This is the first mention of this ability, or not. We have Enoch, Moses, and Elijah as examples, and we really do not have a clue about Moses. Satan never got the body in sheol. Moses was never in Abraham's bosom. The body was never found to prove death even happened. We just have to trust God and have faith Moses died. Kind of weird to say we need faith about a death. Do you exercise faith to claim the souls of the two witnesses went any where? A soul waiting in a dead shell is not that different than you claiming a soul is reunited with sinful flesh. No where does the Bible say that either. It is only an assumption.
 
Upvote 0

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,972
913
Africa
Visit site
✟182,548.00
Country
South Africa
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It was Christ's death and resurrection. Nothing we did or can do period. We are not the means of our own salvation, our own death, nor our own resurrection.

We were both physically and spiritually birthed, saw death, and experienced resurrection on the Cross. It only happened one time, not billions of times over the last 1990 years. Remember your question about Jesus performing millions of funerals for 1000 years? You have asked it 1000 times. It is time for you to consider your own question. It is ludicrous. Nor does the church have to wait to live until the GWT. And Revelation 20 is not a recap example of the point.
Yep. Adam had 1 death, and his death came to all men. The resurrection of Adam (all men) is IN the last Adam, and He (the last Adam/Christ) had 1 birth, 1 death, and 1 resurrection. The sons of Adam who believe in Christ all have 1 birth (a natural one) + 1 birth (a spiritual one), and 1 resurrection (in Christ, when they partake of the first resurrection, at His coming in glory).

The 2nd death is for those souls who are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life when death and hades deliver up the souls in them (the souls that have never been resurrected from the dead).
Revelation 20:4 is for the lost sheep of Israel, and the vineyard is now in their care, while the church is in Paradise. The GWT is for the dead in sheol and Death, not for any living human period. Those lost sheep of Israel taking care of the vineyard get a pass and do not face the GWT and the second death. That is the message of Revelation 20. Amil is just man made theology that literally trashes the truth of God's word with some contrived heresy that is now a theology ingrained in the church, God is about to judge.
Without agreeing or disagreeing, I find the above part of your post interesting. Very interesting. But Rev 20:4 is talking about resurrected saints, nonetheless?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Of course I do not. There are countless quality NOSAS Amils throughout time.


Why are you making this personal and about the person? This is not about that. NOSAS is not a person, it's a doctrine. If an Amil were to ask me, for example, do I think animal sacrificing resuming after the 2nd coming is compatible with Premil, my answer would not be---There are countless quality Premils throughout time that hold to that doctrine----thus this indicates I'm avoiding the question rather than giving an honest answer instead. My answer instead would be, no it is not compatible with Premil nor any position since it is not Biblical to begin with. Yet, this alone doesn't disprove Premil, but, NOSAS alone does disprove Amil if NOSAS is Biblical. Whenever that doctrine of animal sacrificing resuming post the 2nd coming comes up from time to time, I never side with Premils though I myself am Premil. That has zero to do with anything. So what if we are both Premils? And what about Pretrib, as another example? As far as I can tell only Premils can be Pretrib, yet I don't side with these Premils either, when that doctrine is being discussed and debated.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Obviously you do not believe in original sin or total depravity. If you do not grasp that how can you get this whole subject of dual resurrection. This is what Premil produces. One error leads to another. It is like a row of dominoes.
Do you mean sin entering the world? God does not mention original sin any where in the Bible. Adam did not sin before sin was a thing. Adam disobeyed God, and then sin entered the world. When Cain killed Abel, sin entered the Garden of Eden, Paradise. Then Cain was banned from Paradise. Satan brought thoughts into the Garrden and sin was the result, no? Were the thoughts themselves sin? If, so why did God not remove Cain for his thoughts? Abel would still be physically alive in Paradise, no?

"Yeshua answered, “Yes, indeed, I tell you that unless a person is born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. What is born from the flesh is flesh, and what is born from the Spirit is spirit."

Two births, not two resurrections. Only Adam's inherited sinful body dies. It is not resurrected. The spirit dies in the second death. The soul never dies. The body is physically born, and physically dies. The spirit is always with God unless a demon. The demon dies in the second death. The soul still cannot die. The birth of the soul at conception was given a developing physical body. Because of sin, the spirit goes into the presence of God. The Holy Spirit seals us, but only until the day of redemption. Some are still born. They have a spirit, but no body. Some die physically after a period of time. The soul goes to Paradise or sheol. The body returns to dust. Those in the second death have a soul. What do they need their body and spirit for in the lake of fire?
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,166.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why are you making this personal and about the person? This is not about that. NOSAS is not a person, it's a doctrine. If an Amil were to ask me, for example, do I think animal sacrificing resuming after the 2nd coming is compatible with Premil, my answer would not be---There are countless quality Premils throughout time that hold to that doctrine----thus this indicates I'm avoiding the question rather than giving an honest answer instead. My answer instead would be, no it is not compatible with Premil nor any position since it is not Biblical to begin with. Yet, this alone doesn't disprove Premil, but, NOSAS alone does disprove Amil if NOSAS is Biblical. Whenever that doctrine of animal sacrificing resuming post the 2nd coming comes up from time to time, I never side with Premils though I myself am Premil. That has zero to do with anything. So what if we are both Premils? And what about Pretrib, as another example? As far as I can tell only Premils can be Pretrib, yet I don't side with these Premils either, when that doctrine is being discussed and debated.

Why do you always avoid any posts and Scripture that forbids your beliefs?
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,282
568
56
Mount Morris
✟123,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Yep. Adam had 1 death, and his death came to all men. The resurrection of Adam (all men) is IN the last Adam, and He (the last Adam/Christ) had 1 birth, 1 death, and 1 resurrection. The sons of Adam who believe in Christ all have 1 birth (a natural one) + 1 birth (a spiritual one), and 1 resurrection (in Christ, when they partake of the first resurrection, at His coming in glory).

The 2nd death is for those souls who are not found in the Lamb's Book of Life when death and hades deliver up the souls in them (the souls that have never been resurrected from the dead).

Without agreeing or disagreeing, I find the above part of your post interesting. Very interesting. But Rev 20:4 is talking about resurrected saints, nonetheless?
If sheep and wheat are spiritually changed in the Trumpets and Thunders. Do angels physically come to earth when a Christian dies? What John is not saying when 25% and 33% and whatever percent in the Thunders are killed is telling. What it tells needs more Scriptural insight. Are 25% of the population taking out in the rapture? Is 33% of the remaining population chosen Jews? Will all that is left just be die hard Satan worshipers? Is John's death and destruction symbolism literally flipped? Is he saying that physical death is a good thing, and physically staying alive is a bad thing? The only way to be Resurrected in Revelation 20:4 seems to be if your soul was taken from your dead body and brought to the thrones (by angels) for judgment. But not all of humanity, just those now (post trib earth) physically living on earth in an incorruptible body the second death cannot touch.

Is the 4th seal a pre-emptive strike by Satan as an attack on the church? How does such an attack work? No one can know the hour of the Second Coming, yet 25% of those on earth seemingly die immediately before the 5th and 6th seal.

The 4th beast in heaven says go:

"When he broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, “Go!” I looked, and there in front of me was a pallid, sickly-looking horse."

Does the fourth beast tip off Satan? Revelation 4:7-8

7 The first living being was like a lion, the second living being was like an ox, the third living being had a face that looked human, and the fourth living being was like a flying eagle.
8 Each of the four living beings had six wings and was covered with eyes inside and out; and day and night they never stop saying,

What is the symbolism of an eagle like being saying, "Go"?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
From the text the soul remained in the body. It is your burden of proof to show where the two souls went any where. When their body was given life, both soul and body went to Paradise. What physical examination can be done to prove the soul cannot stay in a dead body? The soul never dies, but no where does God say a soul cannot stay in the body.

What you are claiming above is against Christianity 101.

A dead body is made up of elements from the earth, which does not include a soul.

.
 
Upvote 0