LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

Peter1000

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Then apparently you are not reading his writings. You also do not read scripture. Jesus is our high Pri8est, it is He who judges. When He comes back, He comes only for the saved. That means the decision as to who is lost or saved has already been made by Jesus. The judgment spoken of is to judge the punishment of the wicked for the reward of the saved of eternal life has already been given at His coming.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is not vague. The ignorance is yours for believing in what is contradictory to scripture. JS will decide nothing, he will be amongst those judged for wickedness.

I am not ignorant of these events, I have read them many times and look forward to see the day that it happems

I am surprised you did not ask for a scripture about Peter and the 12 as to why they are sitting on 12 thrones judging the House of Israel. (Luke 22:30) What roll is Jesus describing here in the judgement process for these men?

Assuming JS is what we say he is, could his roll be the same as Luke 22:30 only for the people of the great last dispensation of the Lord?
 
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He is the way

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You are arguing against yourself here. It was He Is The Way that stated God would/could refuel our sun if/when it runs out. Given that the lds believe all matter exists and God can't create something out of nothing, He just "organizes" matter, I asked where this fuel would come from? No one from the Christian perspective in this thread claimed God couldn't refuel a star if He chose to.
Just like God, matter has always existed.
 
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mmksparbud

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Lets take your statement that God needed a fallen angel in order for there to be children on the earth. First of all, I have told you many, many times. There was no children mentioned in the bible until after the fall. You can make up all kinds of scenarios as to why there could and should have been children before the fall, but it is all conjecture, since the bible clearly is silent about children before the fall.

\Yes, and it is your faith that insists that the fall had to happen in order for there to be children. You have a ceremony with that very idea in mind---need I post that who ceremony again and all the words that has been written by your prophets about it? Why are you now saying something so contradictory to what your prophets have all said? I will post all the needed quotes if you insist, but then you turn around and get upset when we do.
It is however interesting that God allowed a fallen angel to enter the garden of Eden and allowed him access to a vulnerable Adam and Eve. I have asked this question before, but it seems like you respond that God did not need a fallen angel to do anything for him.
Well yes, that is true, but it does not answer the question: Why did God allow the fallen angel into the garden, with the sad result that Adam and Eve were eventually thrown out before they had children?

Answer this too. Was God caught completely by surprise when Adam and Eve buckled under the pressure and trickery from satan, and partook of the forbidden fruit?

Answer this too. If God was caught completely by surprise and it ruined his plans for his chidren to be happy, why did he not just rewind back to the time just after placing Adam and Eve in the garden, and then not allow satan into the garden, in hopes that they would some day figure out how to have children and all mankind would live forever in happiness. If this is what God wanted, why did it not happen this way?

So lets open it up again and see how far it goes if you wish.

God had made provision for sin from the foundation of the world, Jesus was to be the savior of His own creation. When Lucifer rebelled God did not wipe him out or his followers. Had He done so, the rest of the angels and other worlds would have served God out of fear. He has let Satan do as he must in order to show the universe what sin leads to---and it was shown at the cross for it was then that Satan was completely caste out of heaven. Before that he had access to the heavenly courts as seen in Job. It is not just a matter of us---it is a matter of the whole universe that is watching this battle between God and Satan play out.
Satan was defeated at the cross, it is a matter of time before Jesus is finished with His work as our High Priest and has determined who is lost and who is saved. The judgement of the wicked takes place later. The 1000 years is when we, the saved will go through the books of the lost and will see why they are lost. All questions will be answered then--in other words--it is then that His justice is fully seen by us. He doesn't need the records kept for Himself for He knows all. But we need to see why our sainted aunt did not make it and some creepy old guy did. It is God that has ben on trial all this time by the rest of the unfallen worlds and unfallen angels---they saw at the cross the real heart of Satan and of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Satan is the accuser and as such has he talked all those angels into believing God was not the loving God He is. This battle had left those unfallen with a hint of doubt---what if Lucifer was right? Lucifer did not win those other angels by telling the truth of God, he lied through his teeth about Him and some believed him instead. The cross showed the truth.
 
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mmksparbud

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I am not ignorant of these events, I have read them many times and look forward to see the day that it happems

I am surprised you did not ask for a scripture about Peter and the 12 as to why they are sitting on 12 thrones judging the House of Israel. (Luke 22:30) What roll is Jesus describing here in the judgement process for these men?

Assuming JS is what we say he is, could his roll be the same as Luke 22:30 only for the people of the great last dispensation of the Lord?


I do not need those scriptures, I know them very well. I do not assume. He goes contrary to the word of God and is therefore not His servant. He will have no part in deciding the fate of anyone---Jesus makes the decision and the decision is made by the time He returns--again, He comes back only for the saved--that means the decision has been made. The judgment left is for the punishment of the wicked.
 
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Peter1000

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You go right ahead and believe your faith---I choose to believe in what the scriptures say and not make up stories regarding what it doesn't say. Jesus is the creator of all---He created those planets--there were none until He did so.

You are winding yourself into a little corner, and you are going to have to rely on ancient Greek and Egyptian philosophers who taught that God lives outside time and space, whatever that means. If Jesus made everything, the way you say, then he created the planets and stars and all that makes everything live. So where did he live before he created the entire universe and everything and all that makes everything live?

I know what your response will be, since it is not in the scriptures, I don't know. And that is OK to say, but if someone says that they do know, you cannot automatically say that is not true. You may not know, but God may have given a person that knowledge, and for you to say catagorically that it is false is presumptuous on your part. The only thing that you can say correctly, is, I don't believe that is true, because it is not in the scriptures. That is all you can say.
 
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Peter1000

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I do not need those scriptures, I know them very well. I do not assume. He goes contrary to the word of God and is therefore not His servant. He will have no part in deciding the fate of anyone---Jesus makes the decision and the decision is made by the time He returns--again, He comes back only for the saved--that means the decision has been made. The judgment left is for the punishment of the wicked.
You don't need those scriptures. Wow!!!!! Are you exposing yourself to biblical contradictions. Is it you need some scriptures when they fit your agenda, but don't need those scriptures when they contradict your agenda. Is that how it works? You get to pick and choose which scritpures you believe and which you would rip out of the bible? Wow, I think you have put your foot in it.
 
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dzheremi

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What an uncharitable reading of mmksparbud's post. It is far more reasonable to assume that any "not needing" of any scriptures is written in the context of rejecting the Mormon religion's interpretation of them, in the sense of "I don't need to be told what those scriptures mean by Mormons, since I don't agree with the Mormon interpretation anyway."
 
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mmksparbud

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You are winding yourself into a little corner, and you are going to have to rely on ancient Greek and Egyptian philosophers who taught that God lives outside time and space, whatever that means. If Jesus made everything, the way you say, then he created the planets and stars and all that makes everything live. So where did he live before he created the entire universe and everything and all that makes everything live?

I know what your response will be, since it is not in the scriptures, I don't know. And that is OK to say, but if someone says that they do know, you cannot automatically say that is not true. You may not know, but God may have given a person that knowledge, and for you to say catagorically that it is false is presumptuous on your part. The only thing that you can say correctly, is, I don't believe that is true, because it is not in the scriptures. That is all you can say.


That is what you guys do not get---Jesus is not a created being. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit---One God--they are from everlasting to everlasting. So yes---Jesus created everything which means there were no planets before He created them. He lived in the atmosphere that we can not comprehend. He just always was and always will be. God the Father has no father. I am not being presumptuous---

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Psa_41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psa_90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa_93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
Psa_100:5 For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
Psa_103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

It is what scriptures say. You say you read them, but you do not see, and you do not believe them. You only believe JS. Your God is who you listen to.
Lucifer listened to himself, the fallen angels listened to him, Adam and Eve listened to Satan.
 
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Peter1000

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\Yes, and it is your faith that insists that the fall had to happen in order for there to be children. You have a ceremony with that very idea in mind---need I post that who ceremony again and all the words that has been written by your prophets about it? Why are you now saying something so contradictory to what your prophets have all said? I will post all the needed quotes if you insist, but then you turn around and get upset when we do.


God had made provision for sin from the foundation of the world, Jesus was to be the savior of His own creation. When Lucifer rebelled God did not wipe him out or his followers. Had He done so, the rest of the angels and other worlds would have served God out of fear. He has let Satan do as he must in order to show the universe what sin leads to---and it was shown at the cross for it was then that Satan was completely caste out of heaven. Before that he had access to the heavenly courts as seen in Job. It is not just a matter of us---it is a matter of the whole universe that is watching this battle between God and Satan play out.
Satan was defeated at the cross, it is a matter of time before Jesus is finished with His work as our High Priest and has determined who is lost and who is saved. The judgement of the wicked takes place later. The 1000 years is when we, the saved will go through the books of the lost and will see why they are lost. All questions will be answered then--in other words--it is then that His justice is fully seen by us. He doesn't need the records kept for Himself for He knows all. But we need to see why our sainted aunt did not make it and some creepy old guy did. It is God that has ben on trial all this time by the rest of the unfallen worlds and unfallen angels---they saw at the cross the real heart of Satan and of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Satan is the accuser and as such has he talked all those angels into believing God was not the loving God He is. This battle had left those unfallen with a hint of doubt---what if Lucifer was right? Lucifer did not win those other angels by telling the truth of God, he lied through his teeth about Him and some believed him instead. The cross showed the truth.[/QUOTE]

\Yes, and it is your faith that insists that the fall had to happen in order for there to be children. You have a ceremony with that very idea in mind---need I post that who ceremony again and all the words that has been written by your prophets about it? Why are you now saying something so contradictory to what your prophets have all said? I will post all the needed quotes if you insist, but then you turn around and get upset when we do.

Yes, we believe the fall had to happen. Again you did not answer why God allowed satan into His perfect garden? Did God know that the fall had to happen?

Our ceremony is pretty much right out of the bible as to the Adam and Eve story. It is not exactly the same but pretty close.
 
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Dale

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I am not ignorant of these events, I have read them many times and look forward to see the day that it happems

I am surprised you did not ask for a scripture about Peter and the 12 as to why they are sitting on 12 thrones judging the House of Israel. (Luke 22:30) What roll is Jesus describing here in the judgement process for these men?

Assuming JS is what we say he is, could his roll be the same as Luke 22:30 only for the people of the great last dispensation of the Lord?


Peter: "I am surprised you did not ask for a scripture about Peter and the 12 as to why they are sitting on 12 thrones judging the House of Israel. (Luke 22:30)"

And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred
one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and
sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:29-20 NIV



You are misquoting Luke in your post. Jesus doesn't say how many thrones His Apostles will sit on. He does say that there are twelve Tribes of Israel, but that's non-controversial. I became aware of this point when I heard a woman tell a Methodist minister that Judas is in heaven on a throne, citing this passage. The minister quickly pointed out that Luke doesn't, and Jesus didn't, say "twelve thrones." We are told only that the Apostles will be on thrones.

Of course, Judas was actually replaced by Matthias as an Apostle in the first chapter of Acts.


Peter: "What roll is Jesus describing here in the judgment process for these men?"

We don't know. It is my understanding that this has nothing to do with the Final Judgment. That is reserved for Christ alone.
 
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Dale

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OK, one more lesson on BOM and science. In 1830 people of science and non science laughed their heads off that JS said he had translated the BOM from gold plates, which they said was the stupidest thing they had ever heard. People did not write on gold plates, especially ignorant Indians from the Americas. How stupid does JS think we are?

Well some years later, what do you know, a scientist/archeologist finds gold plates in Central America and to his utter surprise there was writing on them. And many more have been found since that first discovery. Huh, was JS was right in 1830? Was science wrong in 1830?



Oh, Christians have no knowledge of Kolob. We are trying to bring you up to speed, but you are hard to convince. Where do you think heaven is anyway? When Jesus said to Mary he was going to his God and his Father, where do you Christians think Jesus went, anyway? I would like to know?



That is where you are mistaken. We are not asking you to make us equal with Christianity, we only ask that you acknowledge that we are Christians. You know as the scriptures say that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Notice the scriptures do not say that the ___________ (add you church name) were called Christians first in Antioch. We are disciples of Jesus Chirst.


Peter: "Well some years later, what do you know, a scientist/archeologist finds gold plates in Central America and to his utter surprise there was writing on them. And many more have been found since that first discovery. Huh, was JS was right in 1830? Was science wrong in 1830?"


Do you have a source for this? I've never heard of it. The encyclopedia says that the Aztecs wrote on paper. Yes, we know they made some inscriptions in stone. I have never heard of any significant amount of writing by Aztecs/Mayans/Toltecs etc being done on gold. Incidentally, I have a book, Archaeological Mexico, published by the Mexican government, that would mention something like that.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Peter: "Well some years later, what do you know, a scientist/archeologist finds gold plates in Central America and to his utter surprise there was writing on them. And many more have been found since that first discovery. Huh, was JS was right in 1830? Was science wrong in 1830?"


Do you have a source for this? I've never heard of it. The encyclopedia says that the Aztecs wrote on paper. Yes, we know they made some inscriptions in stone. I have never heard of any significant amount of writing by Aztecs/Mayans/Toltecs etc being done on gold. Incidentally, I have a book, Archaeological Mexico, published by the Mexican government, that would mention something like that.
Taking side bets that he cannot come up with a legitimate, non-Mormon source... o_O
 
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Dale

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Just like God, matter has always existed.


I will have to point out that authoritative Christian writers early in the Christian era pegged the belief that matter has always existed as a dangerous heresy. It was a teaching of the Gnostics. The primary problem is that the Gnostics taught that the existence of matter is independent of God.

Septimus Tertullian attacks the belief that matter existed from the beginning. In Against Hermogenes we only have to look at the chapter titles to sense the gravity of his rejection of this idea.

Chapter 2. Hermogenes, After a Perverse Induction from Mere Heretical
Assumptions, Concludes that God Created All Things Out of Pre-Existing
Matter

Chapter 4. Hermogenes Gives Divine Attributes to Matter, and So Makes
Two Gods

Chapter 5. Hermogenes Coquets with His Own Argument, as If Rather
Afraid of It. After Investing Matter with Divine Qualities, He Tries to Make It
Somehow Inferior to God

Chapter 6. The Shifts to Which Hermogenes is Reduced, Who Deifies
Matter, and Yet is Unwilling to Hold Him Equal with the Divine Creator

Chapter 8. On His Own Principles, Hermogenes Makes Matter, on the
Whole, Superior to God


A couple of quotes from Chapter 4.

"At this point, then, I shall begin to treat of Matter, how that, (according to Hermogenes,) God
compares it with Himself as equally unborn, equally unmade, equally eternal, set forth as
being without a beginning, without an end."

"Hermogenes, therefore, introduces two gods: he introduces Matter as God's equal. God, however, must be One, because that is God which is supreme; but nothing else can be supreme than that which
is unique; and that cannot possibly be unique which has anything equal to it; and Matter will
be equal with God when it is held to be eternal."
 
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mmksparbud

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This was encased under my post therefore I c ould not just hit the reply button and have it as a quote--so I copied and paste.

"Yes, we believe the fall had to happen. Again you did not answer why God allowed satan into His perfect garden? Did God know that the fall had to happen?

Our ceremony is pretty much right out of the bible as to the Adam and Eve story. It is not exactly the same but pretty close."


I thought I answered. But I guess I was vague. God knew when He created all His angels that the freedom to choose meant that there would at some point be rebellion. That is why He made provision for that long before it happened. Love is not love if there is no freedom to walk away from it. God did not make robots. Yes, when Lucifer rebelled he and his angels had access to every unfallen world---we are the only fallen one. They were therefore not wanted in those worlds where Satan failed to lead them away from God, this was the only one left. That is evident with Job and Satan going into a heavenly conclave among the sons of God which were the leaders of the other unfallen worlds, Satan went as the leader of this world.
God did not put Him here, He did allow him to be here and yes, He did allow the temptation. Adam and Eve did not have to fail, but they did. God could not, in all fairness, allow Satan on the other worlds and not allow him on this one. God allowed the temptation and He had already made provision for that outcome---No---it did not have to happen and no matter how much you argue against it---the fall was not needed in order for man to have children. We owe no debt of gratitude to Satan for the fall nor for children.
You will insist that children are from God, yet, when you insist that Adam and Eve could not have children until the fall, you make Satan the giver of children. I don't think I need to post the quotes of your prophets saying that without the fall we would not be here because Adam and Eve could not conceive until after the fall. That is baloney. They did not conceive until after the fall is true---in no way does that mean they could not---they were told by God to be fruitful and multiply and that should put an end to it as they would have had to obey that command. We do not know how long after creation they were tempted and it could not have been very long at all for indeed, they had not gotten around to it yet and had no children yet so it was within a year at most. Satan wasted no time in getting to them. Your ceremony is a glorification of Satan and if I put it up, along with the words spoken, anyone can see that it is just plain blasphemous. You can not se it for you are blinded by your total submission to the word of JS and your thinking that what he says is more accurate than the bible and has to be true. You can not yet see the lies, I hope one day you will.
 
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He is the way

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I will have to point out that authoritative Christian writers early in the Christian era pegged the belief that matter has always existed as a dangerous heresy. It was a teaching of the Gnostics. The primary problem is that the Gnostics taught that the existence of matter is independent of God.

Septimus Tertullian attacks the belief that matter existed from the beginning. In Against Hermogenes we only have to look at the chapter titles to sense the gravity of his rejection of this idea.

Chapter 2. Hermogenes, After a Perverse Induction from Mere Heretical
Assumptions, Concludes that God Created All Things Out of Pre-Existing
Matter

Chapter 4. Hermogenes Gives Divine Attributes to Matter, and So Makes
Two Gods

Chapter 5. Hermogenes Coquets with His Own Argument, as If Rather
Afraid of It. After Investing Matter with Divine Qualities, He Tries to Make It
Somehow Inferior to God

Chapter 6. The Shifts to Which Hermogenes is Reduced, Who Deifies
Matter, and Yet is Unwilling to Hold Him Equal with the Divine Creator

Chapter 8. On His Own Principles, Hermogenes Makes Matter, on the
Whole, Superior to God


A couple of quotes from Chapter 4.

"At this point, then, I shall begin to treat of Matter, how that, (according to Hermogenes,) God
compares it with Himself as equally unborn, equally unmade, equally eternal, set forth as
being without a beginning, without an end."

"Hermogenes, therefore, introduces two gods: he introduces Matter as God's equal. God, however, must be One, because that is God which is supreme; but nothing else can be supreme than that which
is unique; and that cannot possibly be unique which has anything equal to it; and Matter will
be equal with God when it is held to be eternal."
I believe God formed the universe:

(Old Testament | Psalms 90:2)

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(Old Testament | Proverbs 26:10)

10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:18)

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

(New Testament | Romans 9:20)

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
 
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mmksparbud

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I believe God formed the universe:

(Old Testament | Psalms 90:2)

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

(Old Testament | Proverbs 26:10)

10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 45:18)

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

(New Testament | Romans 9:20)

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
 
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He is the way

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Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Nothing contrary to what I said there. I can make a chair out of wood. God can make all things out of matter.
 
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mmksparbud

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Dec 3, 2011
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Then accordingly He must not exist. But I know that God is something and He has always existed.

Well that's about the silliest most contradictory statement I've ever heard. He created all things. He created all the planets and stars and everything on them. And He did not require anything to be there first. Your God needs stuff to have already been in existence. Ours does not. You claim that matter has always existed---is matter God? Does it have intelligence? God is spirit, we have no idea what they (God)are made of so your statement is totally irrelevant. That statement has ben made 100's of times and never gains in intelligence.
 
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