Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

DavidPT said:

Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

In this verse thousand uses the same Greek word as it does for thousand in Revelation 20.
Anybody with even an elementary understanding of math should know that a literal thousand plus a literal 600, this adds up to a literal 1600.

This verse says---a thousand and six hundred furlongs. How much does that equal? Does it not equal 1600 furlongs? How can one even arrive at that number if a thousand(chilioi) only means an amount more than a thousand, and can never mean exactly a thousand?

For example, using how Amils might understand a thousand(chilioi), does two thousand and six hundred furlongs equal the same thing as a thousand and six hundred furlongs do? Does a literal two thousand plus a literal 600, equal the same thing as a literal thousand plus a literal 600 equals?

It doesn't matter that it doesn't literally mean 1600 furlongs in that verse, what matters is, that it requires the thousand to be literal, in order to end up with 1600 furlongs in the end after you add six hundred to that. After all, only a thousand plus six hundred can possibly equal 1600. Any other number less than or more than a thousand plus six hundred certainly can't possibly equal 1600 unless one wants to argue that 1000 plus 600 does not equal 1600.

So why is it, in this example a thousand(chilioi) can mean a literal thousand, but in Revelation 20 it can't?

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I have never said it cannot represent a literal 1,000. I am saying: allowing for its repeated figurative usage in the sacred pages, its highly-symbolic setting, and the intra-Advent detail contained within Revelation 20, i cannot in any way relate it to some imaginary period after the second coming when Scripture says 'time shall be no more' - especially when there is nowhere else in Scripture that teaches such a period/duration. I personally take most of the numbers in Revelation as figurative.

Premils have nothing to corroborate their opinion of Revelation 20, apart from their opinion of Revelation 20. That is terrible hermeneutics. I cannot get you to even commit to any open, sensible or consistent mode of interpretation. For someone who is the most vocal Premil I know, this is very telling. Your avoidance is deafening. My experience of Premils is that they wing it. That is not good.

Timtofly said:

Or in any age. Amil cannot explain the physical resurrection of Revelation 20 and make it non physical, but they cannot escape that it is a forever condition, because the second death can have no power both spiritually and physically.

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You will not accept Christ's first resurrection. That is why you do not get it. It has already occurred 2000 years ago. We are in Revelation 20 now.

DavidPT said:

And this presents a major problem for someone such as me, the fact I am 100% convinced NOSAS is Biblical, and if I were wanting to once again seriously consider switching to Amil at some point, the fact I to think, that in some cases Amil appears to be a better solution. How would I be able to do it unless I denounced NONSAS first? It seems to me then, unless I'm missing something here, the fact NOSAS is not compatible with Amil, this proves I should remain Premil, regardless, even if in some cases Amil appears that it might be a better solution. But that is not true in all cases, though. Not even remotely.

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Both your NOSAS and Premil are wrong. You need to change both. Neither add up. What Rev 20:6 says, repeated Scripture says. So, you do not just reject Rev 20:6, you reject multiple Scripture which says salvation is eternal. You have no answer to this. Your rejection of the following testifies to the impotence of the Op.

Jesus said in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (present active particle) in him should not perish, but have (present active subjunctive) everlasting life.”

Currently believing carefully corresponds with currently experiencing “everlasting life." It is a present reality for the elect, not merely a future hope. That is so because God lives within us now.

John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath (present active indicative) everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God (the second death) abideth on him.”

If you don't possess eternal life now you will not possess it in the life to come. Only those who possess it now will never die.

Jesus said in John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath (present active indicative) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death (or experience the second death) unto life.”

He continues in the next verse (John 5:25): “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

The transition from death to life both spiritually and physically occurs by way of resurrection. There is no other way. This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Jesus said in John 6:47: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (present active indicative) everlasting life.”

The word “hath” here is a present tense word which means now or at this present time.

Jesus said in John 6:50-51, 54&58: “This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world … Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life … he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.”

John 8:51-52 Christ said to the Pharisees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death (or experience the second death) … If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.”

Jesus said in John 10:27-28: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give (present active indicative) unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish (or experience the second death), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Jesus says, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth (present active particle) and believeth (present active particle) in me shall never die (or experience the second death)."

These bodies are not eternal or immortal. Our spirits are. That is 101 Christianity. These bodies die. What is more we experience eternal life upon salvation. The Christian will live for and never die because the Spirit of God within.

John 17:3: “And this is (present, active, indicative) life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

I John 5:11-13 says, “God hath given (aorist active indicative) to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath (present active particle) the Son hath (present active particle) life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have (present active indicative) eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

To have Christ is to have eternal life. That simple! Not to have Christ is not to have eternal life. That simple!

John is describing a current reality in Revelation 20:6. It says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

DavidPT said:

And this presents a major problem for someone such as me, the fact I am 100% convinced NOSAS is Biblical, and if I were wanting to once again seriously consider switching to Amil at some point, the fact I to think, that in some cases Amil appears to be a better solution. How would I be able to do it unless I denounced NONSAS first? It seems to me then, unless I'm missing something here, the fact NOSAS is not compatible with Amil, this proves I should remain Premil, regardless, even if in some cases Amil appears that it might be a better solution. But that is not true in all cases, though. Not even remotely.

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Not to talk you out of it...

You are basing your prior death "state of being" on those who have been dead and resurrected.

Are you basing it on their pre-death state or their post resurrection state? They are elect either way, no? God chose them out of Adam's sinful nature to die and resurrect as God saw fit. They had nothing to do whatsoever choice wise, prior to death or after death. If they were given a choice and refused, they most certainly would not be carried off by the angels against their will and resurrected in the Millennium. If God approached you today and said, I choose you, would you accept or tell God, "I'll take my chances, no thanks".

Can any one tell me how they think they can loose Salvation that is not theirs to begin with. I am not saying they are not chosen. I am saying they did not die on the Cross themselves. Atonement is only God's. God says, take it or leave it. But I voted for you, it is up to you now to vote for yourself. God will also remove your name if that is your vote. Elect deals with election and in this case 2 beings are voting. God is willing to change His vote to align with yours and make it official. There is no being, to vote, to break the tie. Not even Satan. Show me one verse where Satan decides our Salvation. Most think election is God forcing us to be Saved. That is a lie of Satan. Being elect just means you have two votes on Salvation. One is God's and one is yours. Looks like you won the election fair and square. God also lets you vote to loose the election, and God will change His vote to make it unanimous. You still have to vote. No election fraud going on in the vote on your personal Atonement. Unless you can deceive yourself out of voting at all. Then you still have 1 vote. At the GWT, God will make you vote. You can decide no, after spending years in sheol, compared to years on earth.

Some hate that point, and deny it. But no one knows when one is finally removed. The only thing we do know is that one cannot be marked 666 on their foreheads and still be in the Lamb's book of life. It is one or the other. That is clearly spelled out in Revelation. That is God accepting their vote to save themselves with 666 instead of being in the Lamb's book of life. It is VERY clear how that works. No ambiguity at all.

sovereigngrace said:

You will not accept Christ's first resurrection. That is why you do not get it. It has already occurred 2000 years ago. We are in Revelation 20 now.

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I do accept it. I do not change it to fit the false theology of Amillennialism.

There is no bodily resurrection besides the one in Christ on the Cross. That is the only physical resurrection in Christ, period!!!

We are not in Revelation 20 now. You have deceived yourself into denying and rejecting God’s Word. Revelation 20 states Jesus is physically ruling from Jerusalem. That is not happening now. Now the church is being collected into Paradise, the New Jerusalem.

There is no verse that can change those facts.

Your opinion and false private interpretation does not count. Show me one verse that I have to change with my opinion. If the translations do not agree on an interpretation, who are you going to appeal to as an authority? Your own opinion or interpretation?

Timtofly said:

I do accept it. I do not change it to fit the false theology of Amillennialism.

There is no bodily resurrection besides the one in Christ on the Cross. That is the only physical resurrection in Christ, period!!!

We are not in Revelation 20 now. You have deceived yourself into denying and rejecting God’s Word. Revelation 20 states Jesus is physically ruling from Jerusalem. That is not happening now. Now the church is being collected into Paradise, the New Jerusalem.

There is no verse that can change those facts.

Your opinion and false private interpretation does not count. Show me one verse that I have to change with my opinion. If the translations do not agree on an interpretation, who are you going to appeal to as an authority? Your own opinion or interpretation?

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There is a physical general resurrection at the end of Satan's little season when Jesus comes. You deny that also.

DavidPT said:

Some of my thinking is the following. How can the 2nd death only have no power over someone for a little while, rather than for forever instead? What does the 2nd death even mean? Does it not mean eternal death, thus the exact opposite of eternal life? Can the first resurrection, in any sense, ever mean eternal death instead? Do or do not, those that have part in the first resurrection, have part in eternal life or not? Do any of those that have part in the first resurrection have part in eternal death instead? If they did, why does the text indicate they have part in the first resurrection instead? I don't see anywhere in the text that it ever indicates that anyone who has part in the first resurrection also have part in eternal death. None of this a contradiction, and that assuming NOSAS is Biblical, if the first resurrection is being understood like Premils are understanding it.

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Pre-mill do not view the resurrection in Revelation correct. In fact all 3: a, post, and pre do not interpret Revelation 20:4 correctly. At what point in church history all went wrong, may not be known. Most think it is the Second Coming. That is NOT logically nor Scripturally possible. It does not even seem to be the same day of the week, but it may be. If the battle of Armageddon is from 5pm to 6pm, One day is over and the next begun, according to the evening and morning day set up by God in Genesis 1. Does God wait until dawn for the resurrection like early Sunday morning of the Resurrection week?

My opinion is that the Battle of Armageddon starts preparation in the evening of Sunday. From 6pm until 23 hours later the troops are gathered. 23 hours is plenty of time for all the armies of earth to assemble in the valley of Megiddo. The 7th vial ends the Saturday by 6pm. By 5pm Sunday the troops are gathered. For one hour the battle of Armageddon rages. Then it is Monday at 6pm. Monday 12 hours later at dawn, the resurrection happens that starts the 1000 year reign of Christ in Jerusalem. During the 12 hours of darkness, God transforms the earth into an inhabitable living condition.

So Christ comes at the battle of Armageddon and does destroy the earth with fire to remove sin and death by sin. It is a new heaven and earth, but not the NHNE. The NHNE happens 1000 years later at the end of the Lord's Day/1000 years. The battle of Armageddon is also falsely assumed to be the Second Coming. The Second Coming was in the 6th seal about 4+ years prior to the battle of Armageddon. No one can date the Second Coming, because it is a constantly changing target until it actually happens.

The Second Coming can not happen less than 47 months prior to the battle of Armageddon. There is no post, pre, or mid trib. The trib has 3 sections. From last to first: Satan's 42 months, then the Thunders, and then the Trumpets. You cannot split 3 into a half-way point. Christ does leave during Satan's 42 months. Christ is here prior to the 42 months and the Second Coming is prior to the 42 months. The 7th Trumpet is supposed to be the last 8 days of the Second Coming event. 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders sound before the 7th Trumpet. If the seals are part of the remaining 3.5 years Christ is on the earth during all this time, then the trib in the seals is the church's part of the judgment, ie no pre-trib. God on the throne and the Lamb come to earth in the 6th Seal. No where does it say Christ leaves. Revelation 13 says "they" have to leave because Satan takes over Jerusalem, and God allows that take over to happen. Who are the "they" that are overcome and "driven out" of Jerusalem? The Lamb and the 144k are the only physically alive "saints" that qualify.

sovereigngrace said:

There is a physical general resurrection at the end of Satan's little season when Jesus comes. You deny that also.

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I deny being in it, because those are souls in sheol. Do you plan on being in sheol any time soon? I do not deny those in sheol are resurrected to stand before the GWT. They may even have incorruptible bodies that have to be physically burned like the burning bush shown to Moses. Incorruptible does not mean saved, it means forever without dying because of sin. In this case souls do not sin in the lake of fire or do they; having to constantly live in sin in a body that cannot die or change?

Timtofly said:

I deny being in it, because those are souls in sheol. Do you plan on being in sheol any time soon? I do not deny those in sheol are resurrected to stand before the GWT. They may even have incorruptible bodies that have to be physically burned like the burning bush shown to Moses. Incorruptible does not mean saved, it means forever without dying because of sin. In this case souls do not sin in the lake of fire or do they; having to constantly live in sin in a body that cannot die or change?

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Jesus emptied Hades after He conquered sin, death and Hades. The dead in Christ are in glory today. They are reigning with Christ.

Timtofly said:

25 "Yes, indeed! I tell you that there is coming a time — in fact, it’s already here — when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who listen will come to life."

Jesus used His voice to bring a most definitely dead man, Lazarus, out of the grave that year.

It is an ongoing phenomenon, not an end time event.

And your argument is with Jesus in the very same chapter.

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If you do not believe in a future bodily resurrection of the dead, you are in opposition to the "Statement of Faith" of this forum, which is found below.


Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes
* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• Annihilationism
• Full Preterism
• Open Theism
• Universalism

.

DavidPT said:

And this presents a major problem for someone such as me, the fact I am 100% convinced NOSAS is Biblical, and if I were wanting to once again seriously consider switching to Amil at some point, the fact I to think, that in some cases Amil appears to be a better solution. How would I be able to do it unless I denounced NONSAS first?

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You wouldn't have to as I have shown you already. Please stop this nonsense.

It seems to me then, unless I'm missing something here, the fact NOSAS is not compatible with Amil, this proves I should remain Premil, regardless, even if in some cases Amil appears that it might be a better solution. But that is not true in all cases, though. Not even remotely.

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You have done absolutely nothing to prove they are not compatible. Nothing. This is clearly a case of you wanting an excuse to not believe amil. If you became convinced that this excuse wasn't valid, you would go looking for another one.

DavidPT said:

Some of my thinking is the following. How can the 2nd death only have no power over someone for a little while, rather than for forever instead?

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Similarly, one can ask how can someone be saved for a little while rather than forever instead? The answer is the same to both questions since those who believe both NOSAS and amil believe that having part in the first resurrection occurs when someone becomes saved.

I don't see anywhere in the text that it ever indicates that anyone who has part in the first resurrection also have part in eternal death. None of this a contradiction, and that assuming NOSAS is Biblical, if the first resurrection is being understood like Premils are understanding it.

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Do you see anything in the following passage which indicates that someone who is saved and "has eternal life" can lose their salvation and end up suffering the second death in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15)?

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

If you can believe that someone can have eternal life but then lose it, as you do, then why is it so hard for you to believe that someone who has had part in the first resurrection spiritually, as amils believe, can lose their part in the first resurrection spiritually?

sovereigngrace said:

Jesus emptied Hades after He conquered sin, death and Hades. The dead in Christ are in glory today. They are reigning with Christ.

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Yet you claim they still need to be resurrected? Those in Christ are also resurrected and in Paradise with all the OT church. The OT was resurrected, Jesus Christ was resurrected, the church today has already been resurrected.

You think going from sheol to Paradise is not bodily and physical? Jesus Christ is the very proof of the physical and bodily resurrection. Putting it off when the souls in sheol will be changed seems kind of counter intuitive? Only an incorruptible, without sin, body can enter Paradise. Paradise is a physical place. It is only temporarily placed in heaven, because it was off limits to Adam's descendants. The Cross removed that restriction. This current earth cannot recieve Paradise as is. That is clear in Revelation 21, that it will not come down until after the NHNE.

Why would Paradise coming to earth change it from spiritual to physical? Adam lost Paradise that day. That did not mean Paradise turned into something spiritual. Paradise was 100% spiritual and 100% physical. Nothing has changed about Paradise. Only the location. Is it hard to accept that physical bodies are resident in Paradise? Bodies that cannot be touched by the Second death, more permanent than this corruptible one. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven.
2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours.
3 With this around us we will not be found naked.
4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life.
5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit.
6 So we are always confident — we know that so long as we are at home in the body, we are away from our home with the Lord;
7 for we live by trust, not by what we see.
8 We are confident, then, and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and come to our home with the Lord.

It seems clear that death is the door to eternal life and the body that awaits those in Christ. It is only death to Adam's sinful flesh. Flesh that should be crucified daily any ways. That physical point in time is when the spiritual (Life) swallows up that which is marred by sin and death.

BABerean2 said:

If you do not believe in a future bodily resurrection of the dead, you are in opposition to the "Statement of Faith" of this forum, which is found below.


Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes
* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

• Annihilationism
• Full Preterism
• Open Theism
• Universalism

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People are still dying. That has not stopped, neither has the living prevented them from rising. Is your point that desperate, you no longer want to hear God's Word?

Timtofly said:

Yet you claim they still need to be resurrected? Those in Christ are also resurrected and in Paradise with all the OT church. The OT was resurrected, Jesus Christ was resurrected, the church today has already been resurrected.

You think going from sheol to Paradise is not bodily and physical? Jesus Christ is the very proof of the physical and bodily resurrection. Putting it off when the souls in sheol will be changed seems kind of counter intuitive? Only an incorruptible, without sin, body can enter Paradise. Paradise is a physical place. It is only temporarily placed in heaven, because it was off limits to Adam's descendants. The Cross removed that restriction. This current earth cannot recieve Paradise as is. That is clear in Revelation 21, that it will not come down until after the NHNE.

Why would Paradise coming to earth change it from spiritual to physical? Adam lost Paradise that day. That did not mean Paradise turned into something spiritual. Paradise was 100% spiritual and 100% physical. Nothing has changed about Paradise. Only the location. Is it hard to accept that physical bodies are resident in Paradise? Bodies that cannot be touched by the Second death, more permanent than this corruptible one. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8

We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven.
2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours.
3 With this around us we will not be found naked.
4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life.
5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit.
6 So we are always confident — we know that so long as we are at home in the body, we are away from our home with the Lord;
7 for we live by trust, not by what we see.
8 We are confident, then, and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and come to our home with the Lord.

It seems clear that death is the door to eternal life and the body that awaits those in Christ. It is only death to Adam's sinful flesh. Flesh that should be crucified daily any ways. That physical point in time is when the spiritual (Life) swallows up that which is marred by sin and death.

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They were caught up in spirit, not physically. That does not occur until the general resurrection when Jesus comes.

sovereigngrace said:

They were caught up in spirit, not physically. That does not occur until the general resurrection when Jesus comes.

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This is found in Revelation where? So Paul is not talking about a physical change in 2 Corinthians 5? Paradise was not physical when on earth? Were the animals in the Garden not physical either? None of the trees and plants were physical? Adam was only physical after he disobeyed God? Was John dead before writing Revelations? John was caught up in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. Was he physically brought back to life in Revelation 22, so he could return to Patmos?

Spiritual Jew said:

What is a good word for being raised up spiritually from being dead in sins to raised up and alive with Christ?

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In the Bible the word "resurrection" is used only in reference to the resurrection of the body.

It isn't just a case of semantics. "Spiritual resurrection" is Chrstianeze and is talking about something that does not exist because the word resurrection in the Bible only refers to resurrection of the body from death. Here are the verses in the N.T talking about the resurrection: OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

Take note of the Greek words found in the verses you quoted below:

Ephesians 2:4-6 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with (Greek: συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō) Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with (Greek: συνεγείρω synegeírō) Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō
to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively):--quicken together with.

υνεγείρω synegeírō
to rouse (from death) in company with, i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

The only way the above happens is through, and because of our spiritual birth from above. Through our spiritual birth from above, Jesus says:

John 14:20 At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

John 17:21 That they all may be one (Greek εἷς heîs), as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one (Greek εἷς heîs) in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

εἷς heîs
(including the neuter (etc.) ἕν E(/N hén);
a primary numeral;
one:--a(-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some.

Again, the only way the above happens is through and because of our spiritual birth from above. We are not "spiritually resurrected from death" because the word "resurrection" implies resurrection from physical death wherever it is found in the Bible, and in any case we had not previously been born spiritually, lived spiritually, and died spiritually.

Through our spiritual birth from above, we share in Christ's resurrection. In the Bible the word "resurrection" is used only in terms of the resurrection of the body. We are raised with Christ's bodily resurrection. The Greek word is synegeiro. This is because of our spiritual birth.

sovereigngrace said:

I am glad you both see the truth and veracity of eternal salvation.

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I'm glad you're a Christian. I'm glad you belong to Jesus. I'm glad you will be with Him in His Kingdom, and that you are part of and in His Kingdom already.

I'm sorry you don't realize that death no longer has dominion over someone only after he is raised from the dead in his body, but I'm happy your misunderstandings will not affect your salvation.

Rom 6:9
knowing that when Christ was raised from the dead, He dies no more; death no longer has dominion over Him.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

The full verse says,
Rev 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.
And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

Hence @DavidPT's OP: The second death has no power over those who have part in the first resurrection, therefore Amil is incompatible with NOSAS.

Do you agree with the statement, "Amil is incompatible with NOSAS"?

BABerean2 said:

The above would be true for all of those who are truly "born-again" believers of the New Covenant Church, no matter whether they are still alive or if they are souls now in heaven.


Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


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I'm assuming Amil is true in this thread, because it isn't a Amil vs Premil thread.

The word "resurrection" is always and only found in the context of the resurrection of the body from the dead in the N.T, and the second death only has no power over those who have already been resurrected in the body: OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

"Knowing that when Christ was raised from the dead, He dies no more; death no longer has dominion over Him." Rom 6:9

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Rev 20:6

The full part of the passage says,

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:4-6

Hence @DavidPT's OP: Amil is incompatible with NOSAS.

Amil is compatible with OSAS, but not with NOSAS.